THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

The August 2023 theme read is any book or books of your choice that covers Allied Air operations during 1943.

The book "The Mediterranean Air War: Airpower and Allied Victory in World War II" by Robert S. Ehlers, Jr. provides a fascinating account of the air war in the Mediterranean that goes into considerable detail about Allied air operations on that front during 1943.

I'm going to go with Max Hastings book; Chastise". I quite enjoyed James Holland's book on the subject so it will be interesting to see how this book compares.

Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943 by Max Hastings

I’d like to shamelessly plug my boy, Curtis LeMay. I recommend, unabashedly, LEMAY by Warren Kozak. That said, I’ll take the recommendations presented and enjoy, as usual from this crowd.

Sam

‘A Wing and a Prayer: The "Bloody 100th" Bomb Group of the U.S. Eighth Air Force in Action Over Europe in World War II’ is going to be my choice for this one



https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...

Tom wrote: "‘A Wing and a Prayer: The "Bloody 100th" Bomb Group of the U.S. Eighth Air Force in Action Over Europe in World War II’ is going to be my choice for this one



https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/..."

Nice choice Tom!

I recently finished Catch-22. Obviously it’s a “surreal” novel, but the descriptive writing of the actual American air raids is quite mesmerising.

I'll weigh in with Ken Lowe's Inferno: The Devastation of Hamburg, 1943 (it's about time I joined a group discussion this year). Be interesting to see how (if) he's built on Middlebrook.

Jonny wrote: "I'll weigh in with Ken Lowe's Inferno: The Devastation of Hamburg, 1943 (it's about time I joined a group discussion this year). Be interesting to see how (if) he's built on Middleb..."

I hope you enjoy the book as much as I did. Keep us all posted Jonny.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I'm going to go with Max Hastings book; Chastise". I quite enjoyed James Holland's book on the subject so it will be interesting to see how this book compares.

[bookcover:Chastise: The Dambusters ..."

fast & great.

Good to hear Dimitri!

Big Week, by James Holland covers early 1944, but much of the lead-up to it is in 1943. I always like Max Hastings, so I should probably look at Chastise. It was interesting to me that, at least according to Holland, the most important effect of the bomber campaign was the destruction of the fighter-bomber forces of the Luftwaffe, not so much the damage to the targets. This left the Allied ground forces after D-Day with no worries about German air attacks, a huge advantage.

By the way, this discussion got me to read a preview of Hasting's Bomber Command, and I ended up buying the Kindle version.

I'm always pleased to see perspective in history; Lowe stacks up Operation Gomorrah in terms of its pace in the war, and against Operation Thunderclap;

In continental Europe the destruction of Hamburg is regarded as a defining moment in the Second World War. It happened eighteen months before Dresden, at a time when much of Germany was still confident of final victory. It was a far greater shock to the system than Dresden was, unleashing almost a million refugees across a nation that had still not quite accepted the consequences of bombing. Those refugees brought with them tales of unimaginable horror: fires hot enough to melt glass, a firestorm strong enough to uproot trees and hurl them into the flames, and rumours of 200,000 people killed within a few days and nights (although, in fact, the total was more like 45,000).

Numidica wrote: "By the way, this discussion got me to read a preview of Hasting's Bomber Command, and I ended up buying the Kindle version."

That's good to hear as I am sure you will enjoy Max Hastings book.

Jonny wrote: "I'm always pleased to see perspective in history; Lowe stacks up Operation Gomorrah in terms of its pace in the war, and against Operation Thunderclap;In continental Europe the destruction of Hambu..."

Very interesting post Jonny!

Sounds like at least one RAF crew was desperate to bring back a scalp from the first raid on Hamburg; I'd of have thought there were easier ways, though:

one Stirling collided with a Ju88 night fighter as he dived to avoid a searchlight. Geoff Turner and his 75 Squadron crew managed to limp home, but the night fighter was almost certainly finished. It turned on its back and fell headlong towards Hamburg, to be recorded later as a ‘probable’ victory to the British crew.

Jonny wrote: "Sounds like at least one RAF crew was desperate to bring back a scalp from the first raid on Hamburg; I'd of have thought there were easier ways, though:one Stirling collided with a Ju88 night figh..."

That's a hard way to gain a scalp!

I'll be starting my theme book today over my morning coffee; "Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" by Max Hastings.

Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943 by Max Hastings

Be interested to hear what you think of it Rick. Jim Holland's take on the op was pretty good.

Jonny wrote: "Be interested to hear what you think of it Rick. Jim Holland's take on the op was pretty good."

Yes, I think it may be hard to beat James Holland's account.

"Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Max Hastings quoted this comment in regard to 'Bomber' Harris:

"As for sailors, it was one of his favourite sayings that the three things one should never take on a boat were an umbrella, a wheelbarrow and a naval officer."

"Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Another quote from the book in regard to 'Bomber' Harris:

"Churchill recognised that such a figure had important uses. Horace Walpole wrote in the mid-eighteenth century: 'No great country was ever saved by good men, because good men will not go to the lengths that may be necessary'."

Sir Arthur Harris:
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/v...

While James Holland's book on the Dambuster Raid waits on deck, I've decided to read this one for the group read first:

Double Strike: The Epic Air Raids on Regensburg-Schweinfurt, August 17, 1943

Marc wrote: "While James Holland's book on the Dambuster Raid waits on deck, I've decided to read this one for the group read first:

Looks good Marc, although I only have one specific title under my belt (guess who it'll be compared with?) Along of course with the relevant chapter from the venerable The Mighty Eighth: A History of the Units, Men and Machines of the US 8th Air Force.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Another quote from the book in regard to 'Bomber' Harris:

"Churchill recognised that such a figure had important uses. Horace Walpole wrote in the mid-eight..."

Interesting couple of posts Rick, fairly accurate, I'd think, but telling at the same time. Mighty Max always did have an axe to find with the Bomber Barons....

Jonny wrote: "Marc wrote: "While James Holland's book on the Dambuster Raid waits on deck, I've decided to read this one for the group read first:

Looks good Marc, although I only have one specific title under ..."

Yes, I've been mentally comparing it to Middlebrook's tome as well, and so far I feel it stands up pretty well. Different style and not as much of the oral history aspect. Seems to be a good book for someone who is already versed in the 8th AF and/or the air war over Europe as it doesn't go into lots of the background and technical information so many others seem to. As for Freeman, I read that one over 40 years ago so my memory is just a bit fuzzy there.

"Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Another good story about Churchill and 'Bomber' Harris:

"It was Wallis's additional good fortune that Bufton and Elworthy - a thirty-one-year-old New Zealander of outstanding abilities who eventually became head of the RAF - were original thinkers, open to new ideas in a fashion that Harris was not. They grasped the terrific theatrical impact that the dams' destruction would make, surely greater than that of yet another assault on German cities. Churchill once said grumpily, 'I'm sick of these raids on Cologne,' to which Sir Arthur Harris riposte - 'So are the people of Cologne!' - was not wholly convincing."

Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943 by Max Hastings

Inferno: The Devastation of Hamburg 1943; Bomber Command and Mother Nature in collusion:

By 1.30 a.m., the fires already extended from the Berliner Tor on the edge of the city centre to the Hammer Park in the east, and from the banks of the river as far north as the Wandsbeker Chaussee. In half an hour the RAF had created a single fire that had engulfed several square miles of the city. Had it been left to itself it would probably not have spread further. A feature of firestorms is that, because all the winds blow inwards to feed the flames, there is little spread from the main centre. But the fire was not left to itself. The RAF continued bombing for almost half an hour after the firestorm had taken hold, dropping incendiaries across the entire eastern quarter of the city. Large parts of Eilbek, Barmbek and Wandsbek were badly hit, and soon the fire service was receiving reports that the flames had spread as far as the main railway station to the west, and the suburb of Horn to the east.

The scope of the disaster is pretty unreal:

The centre of this burning hell was in Borgfelde, around the point where Ausschläger Weg crosses the Mittel Kanal. This was where the Lotze Engineering Works was situated, which the British War Office suspected of producing underwater mines for the Wehrmacht. However, the Nienstadt timber yard lay on the other side of the canal, and it is possible that the intense heat given off by huge stacks of burning wood acted as the first catalyst to the firestorm.

For four and a half hours this unassuming corner of the city was the eye of the hurricane – the centre of a city-wide furnace that was burning at temperatures of over 1000°C. By dawn there was little left to burn. In many areas the house façades were all that was left standing, like blackened empty shells above the glowing rubble. Everything else – floors, ceilings, furniture, the stuff of people’s everyday lives – had been consumed. In some buildings the fires would continue to burn for a long time, particularly those in which the occupants had stocked up early on coke and coal for the winter, but in most cases it was gradually burning itself out. As it ran out of fuel, the raging heat diminished, and the wind died down.

And az for the death toll - so high the Germans didn't need to inflate it this time:

It is impossible to say with any accuracy how many people died that night. At the time rumours put the death-toll at a hundred thousand, and for once the figure was not entirely far-fetched. Because of the chaos that reigned in the aftermath of the catastrophe, German officials were never able to say for certain which deaths had occurred during which air raid, but the official number for the series of attacks that week was eventually calculated at 42,600,58 of whom the vast majority died during the firestorm of 27/28 July.

Terrifying as that total is, it is a miracle that the final figure was not higher. A quarter of the population of Hamburg lived within the bombed area – 427,637 people, according to official figures – and their numbers had been swelled by the influx of people made homeless by the first heavy attack. Yet more than 90 per cent of the population escaped with their lives. Many of these people lived beyond the edges of the firestorm, but even in Hammerbrook and Hamm the number who survived still outweighed the number who died.

Great posts Jonny! It was a pretty horrific raid for those in the city. Hard to imagine what it would have been like - but sure to have been bloody scary!

A great series of posts Jonny. Terrifying.

"Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Another story from my book:

"When Gibson was nominated for a second DSO, Cochrane - who appears previously to have met him only once or twice - queried the award, suggesting that a third DFC would be more appropriate. Harris sharply overruled him: 'Any Captain who completes 172 sorties in an outstanding manner is worth two DSOs, if not a VC. Bar to DSO approved'."

Guy Gibson:
https://vcgca.org/our-people/profile/...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Gibson

So, just finished this one:

Double Strike: The Epic Air Raids on Regensburg-Schweinfurt, August 17, 1943

Good book, and I've written up a short review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Now, it's on to my next book for the group read:

Dam Busters: The True Story of the Inventors and Airmen Who Led the Devastating Raid to Smash the German Dams in 1943

"Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Max Hastings discussing the Lancaster Bomber:

"Behind all this clutter was the loneliest place in Bomber Command - the aircraft's rear turret, in which only a small man might feel remotely comfortable, and which only a brave one cared to occupy at all: there was no room for a rear-gunner to wear his parachute. If the plane was hit, unless he jumped fast - and some 'hit the silk' without waiting to check whether the pilot might keep flying - he was unlikely to get out at all."

The Lancaster Bomber:
https://www.forces.net/heritage/aviat...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_La...

'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Max Hastings discussing the Lancaster Bomber:

"Behind all this clutter was the loneliest place in Bomber Command - the aircraft's rear turret, in which only..."

It took guts.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Max Hastings discussing the Lancaster Bomber:

"Behind all this clutter was the loneliest place in Bomber Command - the aircraft's rear turret, in which only..."

I can only second that... to be sat there waiting to be the first target for German interceptors can't have been conducive to a peaceful watch. Just how brave?

Wallace McIntosh, a rear gunner with 207 Squadron, saw a Lancaster ‘blazing like hell’ a thousand yards away as a German fighter came in repeatedly to attack it. As the plane fell out of the sky he saw five parachutes open, but the Lancaster’s rear gunner, obviously trapped inside the plane, carried on firing till the end. ‘I have never seen such bravery,’ McIntosh recalls. ‘The poor bugger was still sitting there firing away and the fighter went back in to have another blast at him, with the gunner still defiant, and the Lancaster blew up.’

One of the Lancs that drifted out of the Window coverage on the first raid on Hamburg.

Reading The Luftwaffe over Germany by Robert Caldwell where on page 177 he describes the reactions from III./JG54 after seeing (during an April attack on Bremen) a formation of 115 B-17s for the first time:

"This was the Gruppe's first contact with the American "furniture vans" since it had left Russia in early February and [...] the radio was filled with the pilots' "ooohs and aahs."

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...

Must have been an impressive sight, seeing those B-17s for the first time. The attack of April 17th, 1943 on the Focke Wulf factory was one of the most accurate American raids to date. But at a cost: 16 B-17s, 14 percent of the 115 dispatched.

Great posts Jonny and Boudewijn! That Lanc read gunner was a very brave chap!

"Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Max Hastings provided this bit of information in regard to the survival rate of RAF Bomber Command Lancaster crews:

"It was a significant scandal of the bomber offensive, for which Avro shared responsibility with the RAF, that parachute escape from a stricken Lancaster was exceptionally difficult because of its inadequate emergency hatches. Bomber Command's Operational Section repeatedly highlighted this issue: whereas half the fliers aboard doomed USAAF bombers survived, only one in five of the RAF's did so, and just 15 per cent of Lancaster crews. Yet nothing was done."

Lancaster Safety Equipment:
https://masterbombercraig.wordpress.c...

"Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - The return of the surviving Lancasters to their base at Scampton:

"Ken Brown landed safely at 0533, followed by Bill Townsend last, at 0615, after a troubled passage home in which he had to shut down an engine. As he approached Scampton he found that hot oil from the front guns had smeared the windscreen so badly that he was obliged to peer out of his side window to judge the approach. O-Orange bumped repeatedly before finally settling clumsily to earth. As its weary pilot climbed down from the cockpit, a gruff, unfamiliar voice demanded to be told how the trip had gone. Townsend irritably told the questioner to wait until debriefing, Sir Arthur Harris was unamused."

Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943 by Max Hastings

'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""whereas half the fliers aboard doomed USAAF bombers survived, only one in five of the RAF's did so, and just 15 per cent of Lancaster crews. Yet nothing was done..."

That is just wrong-headed and callous. Blame lies squarely with leadership.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: ""Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Max Hastings provided this bit of information in regard to the survival rate of RAF Bomber Command Lancaster crews:

"It was a significant scandal of the bom..."

That's disgraceful.

But is it based solely on the size of the hatches? Over numerous books it's become obvious that there's a massive disconnect between the way RAF and USAAF casualties occurred. It's a recurring theme that most Bomber Command aircraft are shot down without even being aware they're under attack, and the Luftwaffe night interceptors (I'm loathe to apply the word fighters) had all the time in the world to line up killing shots. USAAF bombers could see the fighters coming and were at least psychologically prepared for an escape. And whatever the B-17's myriad faults, the ability to speak up a punishing isn't one of them. The B-24's fast more notorious as a widowmaker, I believe.

Not saying that the hatches weren't a contributory factor, and in the past I've enjoyed the Hastings axe as much as anyone, but if you're pinned to the floor of a crippled plane in an uncontrollable spin then the hatch size is the least of your problems.

I’ve just finished

‘A Wing and a Prayer: The "Bloody 100th" Bomb Group of the U.S. Eighth Air Force in Action Over Europe in World War II’

and have to say it’s one of the best Second World War memoirs I’ve read with an absolutely amazing insight into life on the aerial front lines and at home on the ground. I cannot recommend it highly enough to read.

Jonny wrote: "But is it based solely on the size of the hatches? Over numerous books it's become obvious that there's a massive disconnect between the way RAF and USAAF casualties occurred. It's a recurring them..."

It's not something that he makes entirely clear, but I got the impression it was a size and location issue.

"Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - I found this September 2019 article by Max Hastings on the Dambuster Raid that may interest some members:

https://www.maxhastings.com/2019/09/0...

"Chastise: The Dambusters Story 1943" - Some of the results from the breaching of the Möhne Dam by the Dambusters in 1943:

"On 9 June 1943, police chiefs in the areas affected by the Möhne collapse compiled a preliminary report on its consequences. Almost six thousand cattle and 625 pigs had perished; over four thousand hectares of agricultural land had been flooded, sludge-caked and rendered uncultivable; almost a hundred factories had been more or less seriously damaged, thirty-three slightly so; forty-six road and rail bridges had been wrecked or damaged; bathetically, the report included the destruction of thirty-three clusters of beehives. The final death toll was estimated at 1,294, or possibly as high as 1,579 - several hundred people were still missing. Over a thousand houses had been destroyed or badly damaged, in addition to vastly more that were swamped, their inhabitant' possessions ruined. When, a week after Chastise on the night of 23 May, Force raided Dortmund, 650 people died, and the work of the firefighters was grievously impeded by lack of water, caused by the draining of the Möhne."

Operation Chastise:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operati...

I wrapped up Inferno: The Devastation of Hamburg, 1943 on Thursday last... its a brilliant read - to answer my own obvious question, the narrative is on a par with Middlebrook. What really sells it is the final chapter, in which Mr Lowe examines the morality of not only the bombing, but also our memory of it... not to mention a rather surprising and, for my money, spot on evaluation of the bombing war. I'll get a review up sometime soon, but its a fair bet that this one will be a high four stars...