The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

This section begins after a seven-year time jump. What has happened to Olive and her mother during that time?

What do you think of Mr. Vanbrugh’s proposal? Do you think she should have accepted or is she better off remaining as she is?

How does Harold Gwynne come back into their lives? What are Olive’s feelings toward him?

What has happened to Sara and the Derwents since we last saw them?

What do you think of Christal Manners?

I told you Sara had snuffed it! But poor Charles too - I wasn't expecting that. This author is quite ruthless in killing off unwanted characters, isn't she? And blinding poor Sybilla, just to keep her dependent on Olive!

It's a bit weird the way Christal just turns up out of the blue, apparently expecting to move in with the Vanbrughs, isn't it? And then when they move out, oh well, she'll just stay with the Rothesays then, and if they're going to stay in someone else's house, then she'll go too, even though (as far as she knows) she has no connection with them at all. But then, both Meliora and Mrs Fludyer are so enchanted with her that they both invite her, which is weirder than anything considering what an entitled little madam she is. Doesn't she think it at all odd that she doesn't know her supposedly titled parents' names?

But Sybilla and Olive don't seem to have a permanent home now, do they? They're only staying with the Fludyers 'for the summer' so where are they going after that? Have they packed up all their possessions and brought the whole lot to Farnwood?

How very rude of Harold to visit Michael Vanbrugh without paying his respects to the Rothesays! He must know perfectly well that they live there, since there have been letters passing between them. But he seems a bit short on social graces altogether.

I'd like to have known a bit more about Olive's artistic career and how it's going, wouldn't you? We know she's painted and sold a picture called 'Charity', but it would have been nice to know what else she's painted and how well they sell, wouldn't it? They've paid off Angus's debt, but are the paintings keeping her and Sybilla in comfort?

Jenny wrote: "I'd like to have known a bit more about Olive's artistic career and how it's going, wouldn't you? "

... I wrote that about the previous section: the author, unfortunately, knows close to nothing about painting, painters, and the art market. She might have done a bit of research on the subject - I'd think it would have been easier (for a woman) than, say, research on law, trade unions, economy, the church, courtrooms and many other subjects female authors of the period wrote about without being as clueless as she is.

Christal is super annoying to Olive, if only she knew...Miss Hoity Toity!

Harold Gwynne is in the wrong profession-I get the impression that he doesn't believe in God, or compassion either, for that matter. He's hard and I pity his poor daughter.

Rosemarie wrote: "Christal is super annoying to Olive, if only she knew...Miss Hoity Toity!
..."

Well, quite - why isn't she showing the slightest interest in the rest of her supposedly aristocratic family? Hasn't it occurred to her that there ought to be aunts, uncles, cousins, even grandparents about? And that somebody ought to know who they are? The Manners family are the Dukes of Rutland, for heavens' sake!

This story does seem to have a lot of holes in it, as well as a lot of people behaving inexplicably. Olive seems to have exchanged an attachment (platonic) to one domestic tyrant, Vanbrugh, for another (possibly less platonic) for another, Gwynne. At least Mrs. Gwynne seems like a semi-rational person, though her lending all that money to Capt. Rothesay wasn’t the smartest thing in the world.

As for Olive’s marrying Vanbrugh, at least she had the excuse of caring for her mother to avoid that! I wouldn’t put it past him to abandon her in Italy if his artistic interests changed. His sister is perfectly capable of taking care of him, he doesn’t need two house slaves.

The author seems to think that women, at least the younger ones, are either oppressed, saintly doormats or flibbertigibbets. Christal is a brat, and an ungrateful one at that. Though I expect she’ll be won over to Olive worshipping in the end.

The behavior of Mr. and the elder Mrs. Gwynne toward Ailie is downright unconscionable. I wonder Olive doesn’t draw some comparisons between the little girl’s life and her own before the great revolution in her parents’ feelings. But most of the characters in this book seem to live in an eternal present, which is for me the weirdest aspect of the tale.

Abigail wrote: "As for Olive’s marrying Vanbrugh, at least she had the excuse of caring for her mother to avoid that! I wouldn’t put it past him to abandon her in Italy if his artistic interests changed. His sister is perfectly capable of taking care of him, he doesn’t need two house slaves...."

No, but an extra slave to take on the painting chores would be very useful! I can't help thinking there is something sinister in Vanbrugh's choice of Alcestis as the subject for his masterpiece: she was the wife of Admetus, who had a deal with the Fates that if, when the time of his death came he could find a willing substitute, they would take that person instead. Strangely enough, Admetus had trouble finding a volunteer until Alcestis stepped up for him. That Vanbrugh should be fixated on the story of a woman who sacrificed her life for a man seems quite typical of him!

Jenny wrote: "she was the wife of Admetus, who had a deal with the Fates that if, when the time of his death came he could find a willing substitute, they would take that person instead. ."

oh dear, what a story ... if I could just get a *hint* that our author meant to satirise men's view of women, I could love the novel.

sabagrey wrote: "Jenny wrote: "...if I could just get a *hint* that our author meant to satirise men’s view of women, I could love the novel."

I’m very afraid we’ll have to settle for Olive’s perfect virtue winning her a position as servitor to a man who appreciates her. If it turns out that Mr. Gwynne eventually finds her worthy (or worse, is changed by her) I shall gag. Maybe Mrs. Gwynne, Miss Vanbrugh, and Olive can run off and form a feminist collective/Boston triangle! This book does inspire bizarre reflections.

Abigail wrote: "Maybe Mrs. Gwynne, Miss Vanbrugh, and Olive can run off and form a feminist collective/Boston triangle! This book does inspire bizarre reflections. "

LOL. Maybe we should rewrite the book ... would be so much fun.

BTW: at the outset, the novel reminded me very much of Susan Ferrier's 'Marriage' - Scottish officer marries a young spoiled beauty, marriage goes awry. ... and apart from being an even earlier example of a description of an unhappy marriage, the novel is just as weak as this one.

Sorry to hear that about Ferrier’s book—it was one on my TBR!

Abigail wrote: "Sorry to hear that about Ferrier’s book—it was one on my TBR!"

oh, sorry ... I was too rash, it's my persistent weakness. I do not want to interfere with anyone's reading plans, especially not with my sometimes too outspoken and emotional opinions.

I read this with a (FB) group on a chapter-per-day plan, but after a few chapters some of us read ahead to the end, and recommended to the group to drop it.

I trust your judgment, Sabagrey, and my TBR is so totally out of control that I’m grateful!

So pleased that Olive rejected slavery and kicked Vanburgh in……(to touch?)….. But is she now becoming fixated with the new adonis of the book? I hope not. She wavers from shivering with fear in his presence to bowing down in reverence to the reverend. If Harold is to be the first man that Olive falls in love with… ( I need that bucket again)…. I really expected something better.

I think that the author has some sort of repressed passion when it comes to ultra dominant men and she is letting it loose in this novel.

Harold has already despatched his first wife to an early death, and now seems to be taking it out on his daughter. We know how wrong Olive’s mother was about her husband so her glowing first impressions of Harold can only serve as a warning to the reader. What a pity we can’t warn Olive.

By the way, I am blaming Harold for Charles’ death. He obviously didn’t care much for Sara, so his shameless stealing of Charles’ sweetheart, just because he could, was both arrogant and selfish. The man of God didn’t quite break the tenth commandment, but he came close.

I wonder just how much Sara told Harold?

I was surprised by Charles's death, as I interpreted some earlier passages as foreshadowing a relationship between him and Olive. I was getting such strong "Mill on the Floss" vibes, but I guess I was wrong.

I also thought Olive might end up with Charles, so you're not alone, Lori! I agree with all that has been said above. It seems clear that Olive will fall in love with Harold, and it occurs to me that Angus rejected Sibilla completely just for withholding the truth from him about Olive's disfigurement, just as Harold apparently rejected Sara completely when he discovered her prior involvement with Charles. Perhaps Olive is attracted to Harold because she sees in him the same sort of unbending self-righteous personality that was her father's. Finally, Christal is one of the most annoying characters I can remember. Surely she won't turn out to be a loving, caring sister to Olive (but she probably will!).

As you have noticed, the author has characters move about on a whim. The Vanbrughs are no longer useful for the story - send them off to Rome. Olive needs to meet Harold Gwynne - have her move to his village.

It is not believable that an 8-year-old in 19th century England would have no idea about God. Even if her grandmother and father insisted on keeping religion from her, she would have heard servants talking, or neighbors. Did she have a nanny who was forbidden to mention the word? It seems Harold is a minister who doesn't believe in God and doesn't practice many Christian virtues like humility and compassion. I wonder if Olive's mission in life will be to guide him to discover and embrace religion? And they will fall in love along the way? Yuck!

Nancy wrote: " Finally, Christal is one of the most annoying characters I can remember. ."

I wonder whether the author felt it was necessary to give the illegitimate child some fault - by 'nature'? It would fit the rest of her stereotypes.

The characters in the book lack depth, that's for sure.

sabagrey wrote: "Nancy wrote: " Finally, Christal is one of the most annoying characters I can remember. ."

I wonder whether the author felt it was necessary to give the illegitimate child some fault - by 'nature'..."

Yes, you could be right.

I can imagine Christal’s pout when she screams ‘I want my own horse and I want it now!’

On the other hand, as the plot is becoming so bizarre, Christal, now she is spending all her time at the ‘big house,’ could end up as the Lady of the Manor.

The plot does jump all over the place, doesn't it?

This author does seem to struggle to manage this sprawling story, and Christal is yet another example. She obviously has some role in the denouement but she has no role in the moment so she’s shoved off onto the Fludyers for now. The Fludyers themselves are merely a convenience—to like Olive’s work enough to give her household a cottage to occupy, then to take on Christal, saving Olive the trouble.