Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

Joseph and His Brothers by Thomas Mann is one of our two hefty reads for the last quarter of the year.

This is a four-part novel which retells the biblical story of Joseph. Constructed as a unified narrative, the four parts - The Stories of Jacob, Young Joseph, Joseph in Egypt, and Joseph the Provider - addresses Joseph's fall into slavery and his rise to be lord over Egypt. It was written over a period of 16 years, and Mann considered this work to be his greatest achievement. The center of the story is the universal force of human love in all its beauty, desperation, absurdity, and pain.

Sources: Wikipedia, Goodreads

Paul Thomas Mann (6 June 1875 - 12 August 1955) was a German novelist, short story writer, social critic, philanthropist, essayist, and the Nobel Prize literary laureate of 1929. His highly symbolic and ironic epic novels and novellas are noted for their insight into the psychology of the artist and intellectual. He was influenced by the ideas of Goethe, Nietzsche, and Schopenhauer.

Source: Wikipedia

I am planning on reading this Joseph and His Brothers
this will probably take me into 2024 to finish reading, since it took 16 yrs to write. This has been one that makes me wonder why Mann was so devoted to writing this story that has been told in the Bible.

I'm also planning to read this book. I should start at the beginning of November. Like Lesle, I think it will take me more than a quarter.

I will be finishing the Austen Seven Horrid Novels and the Proust In Search of Lost Time in the next few days.
From there, on to Joseph and His Brothers.

No worries, Lesle and Lorraine. The discussion will be kept open. We could also make it the hefty read for Jan-March 2024, if you want it.

If you want to move Joseph to next quarter no problem here. I have a few alternatives.

I can do that. Lesle?

Piyangie wrote: "No worries, Lesle and Lorraine. The discussion will be kept open. We could also make it the hefty read for Jan-March 2024, if you want it."

That would be wonderful for us! Thank you for the offer :)

Lorraine wrote: "I'm also planning to read this book. I should start at the beginning of November. Like Lesle, I think it will take me more than a quarter."

I think you might be right Lorraine. Closer to November is good for me too!

Done. :) It will continue to be our first hefty for next year.

Thank you Piyangie!

Thanx, Piyangie.

You're welcome, Lorraine and Gilbert!

Thank you Piyange, much appreciated!

ok, i am disappointed to report that i am (already) giving up - after 200 pages). this is the 3rd or 4th time during my life-time that i have abandoned this book. i should just believe now that it’s not for me.

i am a native german speaker and (tried) rereading this (again) in german- and i absolutely despise the protagonists (jacob and joseph) and hate the writing style. now i love mann’s novellas - but this? no.

as someone else said (somewhere else): big book. the bible did it better.

Sorry to hear that, Mo. Then again, it is not worth investing time in a book you don't enjoy.

Thank you Mo for your honest and detailed (of the hard work you did trying to read this story) opinion.

I was the one that mentioned the Bible. The why thought has crossed my mind why several times.

I read the first book 3 years ago through a Nobel Prize Winners Goodreads Group moderated by NTLTRC member Tracey.

I managed to get through the Tales of Jacob with some coaching by Rosemarie and my use of supplemental sources as mentioned in Message 3 of the following thread. I have attached the thread here in the hope it will be of some help or interest to any of you who like me struggle with it but still want to keep on reading. I did, at least through the first book.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also, the Bible section with the story details contained in this book is quite short so the vast majority of the book contains events and details either not mentioned or barely mentioned in the Bible. While the Bible did the story more efficiently, I can't say it was better.

I will be starting this book today.

The first book is the hardest to get through, Lorraine. Just to let you know!

Thanks Rosemarie. Will do my best to hang in there! :-) Read Brian comments and it give me some ideas on how a difficult read this book could be.

I have started the book at the beginning of November. I was at about 50% of 'The stories of Jacob' when I decided I needed to try this book in French. I received my copy from the library yesterday and started again with ‘Descent into Hell’. I really like the way he writes even though it is really dense and I am probably not understanding everything. But it also feels like I am reading tales and this is nice. So, I will continue with the French version for now. At least for the first book. And see if I can go back to English for Book 2.

I am in for this reading. So far have finished introduction and found that quite challenging to understand. But the first part of "The Stories of Jacob" looks much more easier to enjoy.

Inese, I have plans to read this one too.
I have it sitting beside my comfy chair but I have yet to crack it open. The look of it just overwhelms me. I have never read this large of a book before (fiction) and it is something I really would like to start. Hopefully with your comments I will get going on this :)

Welcome, Inese!

I should start Book 2, Young Joseph, in a few days. I want to finish one or two books before starting this one.

Well I started. Read the introduction and feel quite overwhelmed by the thought process of Mann and what he hoped to achieve with this book.
I have not chosen yet how I am going to attempt this read.

The Prelude is 40 pages. Should I read it? Does it help or make things more muddled?

Should I just start with Part One?

Here are my thoughts on the Introduction if anyone wants to read.
https://www.goodreads.com/user_status...

I would just start with Part 1. You can always read the Prelude later.

Thank you Rosemarie. That is exactly what I did.

Just some thoughts as I take on this challenge.

Yes the book is a Hefty at a little over 2lbs, but in ones hand it feels much more, is it because of the prose that is Mann, or maybe it is his complex sentences that one might find a bit much. Mann's words and structure of the sentence is, in no other word but beautiful. Yes, the depth of description is lengthy, but quite visual placement in ones mind.

Starting with Book One (The Tales of Jacob) and reading each chapter by subdivision as I take it all in. I am not going to push myself through. Reading by subdivision seems to me more doable than setting a chapter or page goal.

If you take the time to follow me through this journey, I will share my thoughts as I go here. I hope you bare with me or maybe join in.

Lesle wrote: "Thank you Rosemarie. That is exactly what I did.

Just some thoughts as I take on this challenge.

Yes the book is a Hefty at a little over 2lbs, but in ones hand it feels much more, is it because..."

I will follow you! I am interested in your thoughts about this book. It will help me to persevere!

Does the translation make a difference? Last year I read it in the H. T. Lowe-Porter translation, and though it was a little ponderous, it kept to the Biblical cadence. I understand there are more recent translations out there, but the L-P was okay for me.

I also found it a great help to have the Genesis Chapters 11-50 before me for the four volumes as I went along. Essentially, what the Bible has condensed in a sentence, Mann fleshes out and builds upon.

Just a thought 😊

In German, Mann has sentences that go on for a paragraph-a long paragraph.

Mbuye wrote: "Does the translation make a difference? Last year I read it in the H. T. Lowe-Porter translation, and though it was a little ponderous, it kept to the Biblical cadence. I understand there are more ..."

The book I have is the one pictured to the left of the title of our thread. My translator is John Woods. Here is an article by The New York Times when he passed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/24/bo...

Yes, I wouldn't dream of trying Mann in the original German.

Thanks, Lesle. The article was very informative.

Mbuye, I am not fluent in any language other than American/English. I took two years of Spanish but I can remember only the basics pretty much with out using it.

German would be way out of my league!

😊

The Prelude and beginning of Stories of Jacob was quite a task but then I got carried away by the epic storytelling and just finished the first book yesterday (well after midnight, I admit). I must say the biggest surprise for me is the irony and sometimes even humor I found in the book. Did not expect it all.

Thomas Mann is famous for his irony; his humour is more subtle.
I'm glad you enjoyed the books, Inese. It's one of my favourites.

Yes, I had read Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family before but I guess I did not expect the same ironic touch in this Biblical story. But it is there and it's great.

Glad to hear that you enjoyed the first part, Inese. I had difficulty in really connecting with Mann, but my recent read of Death in Venice changed all that.

Inese thank you for sharing that part. Something to look forward too!

I hope to pick up the book this weekend from the library. I am glad you extended the thread into 2024.

You are welcome, Tracey!

Inese comments was just the incentive/push that I needed to continue with this book. Book one was difficult for me but book two was more enjoyable. I agree that the humour and irony add a very interesting touch to the story.

I agree, the beginning is tough going. There is a BIG difference between reading this story in Hebrew and reading it in the English translation of German. Hebrew is a very economical language. The Bible in some spots is very bare bones on the details.

What Mann does by adding to the story however is very consistent with Jewish tradition. There is a collection of stories thousands of years old called the Midrash. These stories are so familiar that many people mix them up with what is actually stated in the story. For instance, in the Bible, Jacob puts his head down on stones but later in the narrative it says "stone". The Midrash says that the stones melded together so they could all share the honor of being Jacob's pillow.

The Jacob story itself is filled with irony. He tricks his blind father into getting his blessing yet Jacob himself is tricked on his wedding night and for years afterward by Laban.

I have to say that I am finally reading this book. The beginning seems to me very confused. It reminds me of Hesse's Narcissus & Goldmund in some way. But more historical-in-depth.

Jeremy wrote: "I agree, the beginning is tough going. There is a BIG difference between reading this story in Hebrew and reading it in the English translation of German. Hebrew is a very economical language. The ..."

Very interesting comments. It is true that there are sooooo many words that I sometimes get lost. I had thought that reading this is English would be easier than in French though. Us Francophone, need many more words to say the same thing! :-)

Lorraine it is interesting that you said that. Sometime I get lost in the words of his sentences too and I can not tell you the times I have reread them over and slower trying to get them to sink in!!

I don't think I'm going to go on with this book. I know the story so well that I have this nagging sensation of something being wrong when I read it. I hope everyone else enjoys it!

Jeremy wrote: "I don't think I'm going to go on with this book. I know the story so well that I have this nagging sensation of something being wrong when I read it. I hope everyone else enjoys it!"

That is understandable Jeremy. I had at one point when reading that exact same thought. Would it help in my thought process or make me wonder in what I have already be taught.