The Old Curiosity Club discussion

An interesting thing to me about this book: I don’t really like any of the characters all that much. I don’t necessarily dislike them, either: Gilbert is fine, Helen is fine, a number of supporting characters are fine. But I find I’m not out-and-out rooting for anyone, except in the general way that you tend to root for the point-of-view character. Of course I hope Helen triumphs over her horrible husband. But I’m not reading anything where I’m thinking, I will remember this person. (Possible exceptions—Gilbert's mother is vividly portrayed, I might end up liking Lord Lowborough, and I love Rachel, who is criminally underdeveloped, though in a way appropriate for the times I guess.)

What I do really like in the book is the way the groups function. The house parties are fascinating. I was drawn into them when Helen arrived at Wildfell Hall and all the neighbors started to talk, and I find I am drawn into them now, as all the Huntingdon guests trade in secrets, fight their demons, and jockey for position.

So this week we’re in Chapters 32-34 and I have enjoyed having plenty of secrets and demons and jockeying. Annabella and Arthur are having an affair, which starts out secret-ish, by which I mean Helen doesn’t know it, but by the end of these three chapters, as Helen points out, all but two people in the house (Millicent and Lord Lowborough) do know. Helen finds out thanks to Rachel, whom she trusts. Let’s all say it together: you should have listened to Rachel before you got married, Helen! She does not find out from Mr. Hargrave, even though he told her he had some bad, bad news that he was obviously itching to pass on, but Helen has enough sense to cut him off in his efforts to ingratiate himself with her.

I know Hargrave has his defenders, but I’ll say it again: he is out of line. If you really love a woman in a Victorian novel who is married but not to you, you do not undermine her husband. You sacrifice yourself to the guillotine for him! Surely we all know this. I don’t like Hattersley, at all, but it’s a point in his favor that, as we learn in chapter 32, he once smacked Hargrave. It would please me if all three of these H-gentleman—Hargrave, Hattersley, and Huntingdon—would do a lot more mutual smacking of one another. Maybe we need Gilbert back on the scene.

(Sorry!)

I digress.

Some questions:

Helen loses the chess game with Hargrave that she comes to see as symbolic of her ability to hold Hargrave off. What do you think Hargrave’s role in this story is or might be?

Thoughts on the Hattersley-Millicent marriage? Hattersley, who found exactly the wife he said he wanted—one who will let him do whatever he likes and welcome him like she is his dog when he comes home—appears to be changing his mind. “I sometimes think I should do better if I were joined to one that would always remind me when I was wrong, and give me a motive for doing good and eschewing evil by decidedly showing her approval of the one, and disapproval of the other.” (It’s noteworthy that Helen is not impressed by this change of heart, even though this was once exactly the wife she herself aspired to be.)

What do you think of the way Helen handles her discovery of her husband’s affair? I’m thinking both of what she says to him and also what she says to Annabella. Do we still want her screaming and throwing things? Or is her more dignified response satisfactory?

As someone who ferociously tries to guard my privacy and routines, I, too, am fascinated by these country house visits. Imagine having to entertain a bunch of people, especially those you don't care much for, for weeks on end! Like Helen, the pretense would wear on me. The group dynamics are interesting to observe, and I'm surprised and disappointed that the guests aren't exhibiting better behavior. I always like to give past generations credit for having some decorum, but this group certainly struggles with that.

Now that Helen has 1) been humbled, and 2) accepted that her marriage is over, I'm quite happy that she's responding with dignity and not throwing a fit. Something was needed to temper her piety, but being faced with her bad decisions seems to have done that.

The chess game was pretty heavy-handed symbolism.

You have such strong feelings about Hargrave, Julie! He and Lowborough seem to me to be the only decent men in Helen's sphere right now, and that includes her uncle. I'm not a huge fan of Hargraves (like you, I'm not rooting for anyone yet), but I think his heart's in the right place... with apologies to Sidney Carton. :-) Despite that, I've no idea what his overall role in the story is. Perhaps he'll facilitate her relationship with Lawrence and be the catalyst to get her out from under Arthur's thumb. If so, I wish he'd do it soon.

The book has gotten more interesting over time, but I find myself wishing Anne would get on with it. There have been precious few real developments since we were given a glimpse of Helen's diary. Helen married Arthur despite being warned against it, and the warnings proved true. We've met some minor characters, but other than Annabella, we don't get a clear picture of their purpose. That's it, really. I'm overdue for a plot twist.

Mary Lou wrote: "Imagine having to entertain a bunch of people, especially those you don't care much for, for weeks on end! Like Helen, the pretense would wear on me."

No wonder they (prospective country-visit hosts) needed those huge houses. If it were me I would need my own letter-writing room and spend a lot of time "writing letters."

(But I don't think most people got that, even when there were no visitors around. I am remembering Virginia Woolf describing Jane Austen as someone who had to hide the novel she was writing away and put on her social face whenever anyone walked into the room.)

Mary Lou wrote: "I've no idea what his overall role in the story is. Perhaps he'll facilitate her relationship with Lawrence and be the catalyst to get her out from under Arthur's thumb. If so, I wish he'd do it soon."

I hope you're right about Hargrave, but I guess I do have strong feelings about him. I expect him to make the problems worse rather than better. It's difficult to tell because we only get him through Helen's eyes and she doesn't like him, but I don't think he really does love her, or at least not in a selfless way. I expect he'll come up with a plan to "ruin" her and this will blow everything up even further.

Mary Lou wrote: "The book has gotten more interesting over time, but I find myself wishing Anne would get on with it. There have been precious few real developments since we were given a glimpse of Helen's diary. Helen married Arthur despite being warned against it, and the warnings proved true. We've met some minor characters, but other than Annabella, we don't get a clear picture of their purpose. That's it, really. I'm overdue for a plot twist."

Agreed.

I found these chapters the best in quite some time. While there are no voilent actions or uncontrolled hissy fits, the revelations are a very good exploration of the psychology of a failed marriage in the 19 C.

First, I think we need keep in mind that this is a novel written in the 19C for a 19C audience. From that point of view:

I admire Helen. She handles the revelation of her husband’s dishonourable behaviour with understandable passion, firmness, concern for her son, and the ability to be civil in very trying circumstances. I agree with Mary Lou. These country visits were sooo long. How one could stand even one’s best friends for months at a time amazes me. Confronted with the truth, I think Helen handles the situation admirably.

As for Arthur. What a sleeze. In the 19C he still held all the power even after his actions and attitude towards Helen is revealed. The dynamics of this most uncomfortable situation is drawn very well by Bronte. I have not appreciated - or, admittedly, even noticed Bronte’s deft hand at times before.

What an uncomfortable and psychologically draining home it will be for Helen and her son. These three chapters have elevated my respect for Helen. Bronte did take her time getting to this point, and I complained along the way, but my hope is now the novel will move forward in a much more interesting and dynamic manner.

Peter wrote: "As for Arthur. What a sleeze. In the 19C he still held all the power even after his actions and attitude towards Helen is revealed. The dynamics of this most uncomfortable situation is drawn very well by Bronte. I have not appreciated - or, admittedly, even noticed Bronte’s deft hand at times before."

This is a good point and when I think about it, I do appreciate the book more. I was struck when reading that Arthur's initial response to Helen telling him she knew about his affair was "I shall catch it now!" Really? That's what you're worried about? He's not remorseful in the least.

And Peter is right that Bronte makes it very clear that Mr. Huntingdon has all the power:

“Well, what then?” said he, with the calm insolence of mingled shamelessness and desperation.

“Only this,” returned I; “will you let me take our child and what remains of my fortune, and go?”

“Go where?”

“Anywhere, where he will be safe from your contaminating influence, and I shall be delivered from your presence, and you from mine.”

“No.”

“Will you let me have the child then, without the money?”

“No, nor yourself without the child. Do you think I’m going to be made the talk of the country for your fastidious caprices?”

“Then I must stay here, to be hated and despised. But henceforth we are husband and wife only in the name.”

“Very good.”

It's just SO spiteful of him. He doesn't even like to have her or little Arthur around, but he doesn't want any talk (as if there were not plenty of talk already) so he won't give her an inch. And all the inches are his to give. So frustrating and sad.

Julie wrote: "Peter wrote: "As for Arthur. What a sleeze. In the 19C he still held all the power even after his actions and attitude towards Helen is revealed. The dynamics of this most uncomfortable situation i..."

Can there be a more horrid expression than Authur’s phrase ‘your fastidious caprices’ directed at Helen?

Peter wrote: "Can there be a more horrid expression than Authur’ phrase ‘your fastidious caprices’ directed at Helen?"

Poor Helen really should have checked the shape of his head more carefully before marrying him. :)

Ha!