The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

This section, or at least from chapters 11-18, is called Meeting Streams , and indeed we see the background of Gwendolen Harleth, we meet our eponymous Hero and finally see the circumstances which brought Gwendolen under the eyes of Daniel Deronda in Leubronn.

Ch 14 and 15 finish off the tale of Gwendolen and Grandcourt, and see her leave suddenly for the continent under the care of family friends, and then see the failure of Grandcourt's pursuit of her to Leubronn through his own laziness and lingering. We also see a meeting of DD and Grandcourt and get the impression that they do not like each other. We learn of the current disposition of the estates and the faint possibility of a male heir still coming between Grandcourt and the title and lands.

Ch 16 introduces the backstory of Deronda, and presents him as an entirely admirable and clever boy and young man, who has lived almost his entire life with an "uncle" who apparently loves him and treats him well, and supports him in a gentleman's education, but who has not given him any of his own history.

Ch 17-19 show us Deronda as a somewhat aimless young man, who rescues a young Jewish woman on the verge of suicide, and brings her to the house of a friend for whom he has done a great service in the past. This friend's mother and sisters take her in and appear ready to care for her to the utmost of their ability. (This section is very reminiscent of Jane Eyre which many of us just read and (view spoiler)[ Jane's landing at the Rivers' home and St John in particular asking that she be cared for by his sisters. (hide spoiler)])

What did you think of Gwendolen fleeing Diplow on finding about about Grandcourt's mistress and children?
Daniel Deronda has no knowledge of his own background-do you think it likely that he and his uncle would never have discussed this, or he would have heard no rumours from someone like Grandcourt or Lush?
Is Daniel Deronda too good to be true? Unlike Gwendolen and Grandcourt, he seems to have no flaws.
We have just begun the section titled Maidens Choosing. Which maiden(s) will be choosing what?

Please share your thoughts on this section.

It does seem odd that Daniel was never even told if his mother was his guardian's sister and he never asked. It was more common then for children to be orphaned and taken in by someone but still . .

Deronda does seem a bit too wonderful but he is sometimes lazy if he's not really interested in a subject. He does get to be a knight in shining armor for Mirah and it was very perceptive of him to take her to his friends' house rather than his own family's grand mansion. I thought it was amusing how the sisters were so eager to care for somebody. (When I was in elementary school in rural Pennsylvania, I wished that a Black girl would move there so that I could be her friend - and I suppose prove how wonderful I was - a rather cringey thought now!)

I wonder if there will be a contention of title? This reminded me of Pride and Prejudice which I recently read. Where an orphan boy felt entitled to some property.

I also found Daniel's totaly lack of knowledge about his background a bit of a stretch. I would have expected there would at least be a named family member where he supposedly came from. But I found it generally believable that, in the absence of that knowledge he would develop his own theory and not tell anyone about it.

I enjoyed meeting Daniel. So far though, I find Gwendolen and her faults more interesting to read about than Daniel and his white-knighting. I couldn't help thinking it was lucky for Mirah she was pretty and versed in Italian or she might have ended at the bottom of the river!

Mirah is the opposite of Gwendolyn - small, dark, poor, shy, and modest. I also was a bit disturbed about how she is ok because she knows music and Italian. Although there is a passage where Daniel reflects on the stereotypes he has about Jews.

As far as Daniel's history, maybe the way it was told was that "uncle" wasn't necessarily a blood relation. He was told his parents died and he was taken in by this kindly (rich) person.

Despite Mirah’s attempted suicide, there is so much to enjoy, applaud and find satisfaction with in this section after the excesses of materialistic wealth and petty selfishness that has occurred so far in the worlds of Gwendolen and Grandcourt.

Here is just one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp8MO...

I believe in Daniel’s goodness so much that I think he would have rescued Mirah whatever she looked like.

’ In many of our neighbors' lives there is much not only of error and lapse, but of a certain exquisite goodness which can never be written or even spoken—only divined by each of us, according to the inward instruction of our own privacy.’

It was his innate goodness that arrested Gwendolen’s thoughts and why the Meyrick girls likened him to Prince Camaralzaman.

What a joy to read about the Meyrick family. Already I admire Kate far more than Gwendolen even though I know so much less about her.

’ I am not sure that in the times of greatest scarcity, before Kate could get paid-work, these ladies had always had a servant to light their fires and sweep their rooms; yet they were fastidious in some points, and could not believe that the manners of ladies in the fashionable world were so full of coarse selfishness, petty quarreling, and slang as they are represented to be in what are called literary photographs.

As for Mirah, Daniel and Gwendolen’s shock revelation, not to mention slimy Lush’s double dealing, more about those later.

Trev wrote: "Despite Mirah’s attempted suicide, there is so much to enjoy, applaud and find satisfaction with in this section after the excesses of materialistic wealth and petty selfishness that has occurred s..."

Thanks, Trev, for the link with the beautiful, transcendent music and singing.

This is my second time reading this book, and though the first time was long enough ago that I don't remember a lot of it, I do remember I found Daniel uncomfortably good, too good to be believable. But so far this time I'm not feeling that. I'm finding his goodness tempered by his insecurities and the way they sometimes affect his behavior, like the time he got angry when asked if he'd like to be a singer or performer.

And I was startled by Daniel's reference to Delphic women (presumably the Meyrick family) and Maenads (Mirah!?) at the end of chapter 17. I was hoping to read the Plutarch Daniel was thinking of to see if, based on the passage, comparing Mirah to Maenads isn't as insulting as it seems to me. But I couldn't get my hands on a copy of Moralia. (I was hoping it with be in Lives which I have.)

In any case, Daniel seems goodhearted but flawed to me this time through, not too good to be believable.

With the introduction of Lydia Glasher, the Meyrick family and Mirah, this section brought to me thoughts of contrasts and comparisons, particularly in respect of the women in this story. I wondered if that was the intention of the author.

Mrs. Davilow and her daughters, Mrs. Meyrick and her daughters, Lydia Glaysher and her children all inhabit different places in the same society. Even at this early stage in the reader’s knowledge of these families the differences in their relative emotional stability seemed stark. Mirah’s desperate escape from Prague and subsequent unsuccessful search for her mother and brother in London contrasted greatly with Gwendolen’s gambling cavortings around Europe.

Gwendolen’s second archery contest only served to show how little she valued her skills with the bow and arrow, being more concerned with her other ‘Grandcourt’ mission, until the excitement and intrigue of the mystery note upstaged even that. But her mischievous curiosity left her wounded to the core. Her realisation that Grandcourt, like many of his aristocratic cronies, was an unscrupulous scoundrel at the very least exploded all her castles in the stratosphere. Once again her instincts were to run away and hide from the pain of reality.

I had mixed feelings about Lydia Glasher. She herself had abandoned her own family for Grandcourt and her complaint to Gwendolen that he was abandoning her and her family for Gwendolen smacked a little bit of hypocrisy.

However, I loved this quote, as if Gwendolen’s face had looked into a mirror of reality.
‘ Gwendolen, watching Mrs. Glasher's face while she spoke, felt a sort of terror: it was as if some ghastly vision had come to her in a dream and said, "I am a woman's life."’

Equally telling was Gwendolen’s reaction once the revelation had sunk in.
‘ I don't care what comes of it. I don't care if I never marry any one. There is nothing worth caring for. I believe all men are bad, and I hate them."

Slimy Lush’s plan to disrupt proceedings between G and G seems to have worked.

The fact that Grandcourt immediately chased after Gwendolen, like one of his dogs hunting down a startled rabbit, only underlined his ego massaging determination never to be beaten.

Trev wrote: "However, I loved this quote, as if Gwendolen’s face had looked into a mirror of reality.
‘ Gwendolen, watching Mrs. Glasher's face while she spoke, felt a sort of terror: it was as if some ghastly vision had come to her in a dream and said, "I am a woman's life."’"

That's a great quote, and one of the reasons I think there's more to Gwendolen than just a selfish miss out for her own interest. She often seems to be raging about the limitations and expectations on her as a woman.

Lydia Glaysher strikes me as a woman who made a mistake, and is trying to do damage control. She left her husband for Grandcourt (but I don't believe any children?). She has a pretty significant claim, having a total of four children with the man. So this wasn't a quick disposable affair!

I'm curious to see how (or if) Gwendolen and Deronda revise their first impressions of one another. He seems unsure what to make of her, noting that she had a "face which might possibly be looked at without admiration, but could hardly be passed with indifference."

She is immediately vexed with him, thinking his superior and ironic gaze as ruining her luck gambling, and she feels humiliated at the thought that it was he who redeemed her necklace and returned it to her.

So far, his first impression of her seems closer to seeing something true about her character. On the other hand, it's easy to imagine his returning the necklace, but from what we've seen of Deronda so far, it seems she must have misconstrued the way he was looking at her.

I didn’t find Deronda too good to be true at all. He has mensch potential but his ability to function in the world is severely hampered by a tendency toward neurotic thought patterns, compounded by laziness born of the lack of necessity to earn money. Actually, I like him a lot; while outwardly indolent, he thinks deeply and seems to have a high degree of emotional intelligence, making a strong effort to understand others in a way that is both truthful and compassionate.

Regarding the quote about “the life of a woman,” there seems to be a recurrent motif in the book about looking into another person’s eyes and finding there something revelatory about oneself. Looking into Deronda’s eyes also seems to have that effect on various people. Gwendolen, for instance, does not have a gift for self-reflection, but when she meets his eyes she is unsettled, as if there ought to be something she understands but can’t quite get there. Instead, she just resents the discomfort.

I’m loving this book but there do seem to be some elements of polemic to it, especially when it comes to gender politics. The character of Lydia seemed to be dragged in mainly to make a point about the double standard, which makes her an outcast and her co-sinner a lionized “catch.” There was plenty in Gwendolen and Grandcourt’s short-lived relationship that could have led to a breakup without the elaborate affair of meeting Lydia by the Whispering Stones.

I did a little shallow dig into the state of Jews in England at the time the book is set and written. It was a time of rapid change, with deep-seated prejudices at odds with legal reform. Jews were legally “allowed” to live in England since the seventeenth century, and though by tradition and family inheritance they tended to work in a limited number of professions, they weren’t officially limited to those spheres. They were required to wear distinctive clothing until 1846, thus cementing their place in society as “other.” They were allowed to matriculate at English universities only in 1837.

The first Jew to serve in the House of Commons was in 1858. Unlike Catholics, Jews had not been legally barred from holding office in the government or military, but in practical terms they were barred by the oath of office, which required people to swear a “true oath as a Christian.” A compromise on the oath was reached in 1858 but full emancipation did not happen till five years before this book was published, in 1871 (after the decade in which it is set).

So much for the legal aspects, prejudices and invidious stereotyping against Jews were the norm rather than the exception among people of all classes. In the Middle Ages, laws against Christians practicing usury meant that only Jews could lend money throughout most of Europe. Although many people availed themselves of moneylending services, this gave people an excuse to hold Jews inferior or immoral and led to a hostile association of Jews with banking that persists today. As some Jewish families prospered in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, people felt the usual resentment that arises when members of society held to be inferior become successful; they are perceived as stepping outside their intended sphere. There were also wealthy Jewish families engaged in international trade, an activity often denigrated as “speculation,” and therefore associated with gambling—bringing us around to this book.

My sense is that by opening the novel with a scene of Christians gambling in a way that’s socially acceptable, Eliot is deliberately undercutting these hateful stereotypes, showing them to be baseless. Deronda’s wrestling with his own learned prejudices about Jews inclines me to think so. This is my first reading of the book, but I’m now wondering if Deronda’s unexplained parentage and the introduction of Mirzah are setting us up for a revelation that Deronda himself is of Jewish heritage; the frequent references to his brown skin and curly hair also lend color to that speculation, in an era when most Jews in England were of Sephardic heritage, not from eastern Europe.

Finally, as regards his unwillingness to press his guardian about his parentage suspicions: I didn’t find that unrealistic at all. It’s only recently that parents have become frank with their children or revealed family skeletons to them. Deronda himself doesn’t entirely want to know, because if he is, as he suspects, illegitimate, under the terms of the society he lives in that would cripple his opportunities. He might not be welcomed into any profession he chose. (If he were an aristocratic or royal bastard it would have been different.) How could he propose marriage to a woman? That would be regarded as an insult to her purity. The consequences of suspicion becoming reality would be huge. Sir Hugo would be equally reluctant to bring such a thing out into the open, and his optimistic temperament is of the sort that would deal with uncomfortable truth by ignoring it. I was raised by a grandmother who tried to change my name legally without discussing it with me (luckily the judge refused when I didn’t consent at the hearing), so all the silence and avoidance rang true to me.

Abigail wrote: "Finally, as regards his unwillingness to press his guardian about his parentage suspicions: I didn’t find that unrealistic at all. .. Deronda himself doesn’t entirely want to know, because if he is, as he suspects, illegitimate, under the terms of the society he lives in that would cripple his opportunities. He might not be welcomed into any profession he chose... How could he propose marriage to a woman? That would be regarded as an insult to her purity... Sir Hugo would be equally reluctant to bring such a thing out into the open, and his optimistic temperament is of the sort that would deal with uncomfortable truth by ignoring it. "

I would have thought that this reality would have had some bearing on Sir Hugo's choice whether or not to tell DD of his history. This is a society in which one's name and family are all in all to how one is seen and measured, and to send a young man out into the world with no knowledge of his own status or, as Abigail says, whether he could hope to marry or find a profession seems negligent. At one point Daniel believes his uncle is suggesting he becomes a singer, which would be a definite step-down in class, so clearly things are very unclear to him.

While the initial meeting of Deronda and Gwendolen do seem to set them up for a relationship of some sort, it also feels as if Mirah has entered the picture as a potential partner for this handsome and good yet "nameless" young man (who, as Abigail mentions, we may suspect is also Jewish).

Lydia Glasher left one child with her husband to run off with Grandcourt.

Emily wrote: "Trev wrote: "However, I loved this quote, as if Gwendolen’s face had looked into a mirror of reality.
‘ Gwendolen, watching Mrs. Glasher's face while she spoke, felt a sort of terror: it was as if ..."

Yes I agree that there is much more to Gwendolen than her selfishness, but she is raging against everyone in wanting her own way, hence the ‘I hate all men’ quote. That is misguided but you could argue understandable because of her upbringing and her youth and inexperience. Rex had some glimpses of Gwendolen’s potential goodness, but his prospecting was rejected. Maybe the reality of Mrs Glasher’s appearance will open up a shaft to Gwendolen’s heart and be the turning point she needs.

As for Lydia Glasher, in leaving her husband and her child she condemned herself to be ostracised from Victorian society as a ‘fallen’ woman with a ruined reputation. It seems she had Grandcourt’s children whilst still married to her husband. If so it would be very difficult for her to make any claim on Grandcourt stick legally, despite all the children. The link with Lush must mean that she is supported in some way by Grandcourt, probably provided for in some quiet out of the way place where Lydia and Grandcourt cannot be connected.

Of course Grandcourt is the major wrongdoer, not Mrs. Glasher, whose experience with her husband is unknown and whose plea to Gwendolen is motivated by her children’s best interests. Like many women who were flattered and deceived by upper class men like Grandcourt, she has been left at the mercy of the devious and despicable.

It is interesting to consider that Daniel Deronda in thinking that Sir Hugo could be his father, might believe himself to have a similar status as Mrs. Glasher’s eldest son,

It makes sense to me psychologically that when Gwendolen discovers that Grandcourt, who seemed so correct, turns out to be a scoundrel, she would denounce all men. She could tell that Grandcourt was selfish and cold and she could live with that, assuming she's be allowed to be the same way. But he seems like the kind of man who would follow all the rules of society to prove his superiority. Turns out he is the type who figures he is superior so the rules don't apply to him.

Interesting that Mrs. Glasher doesn't evoke in us the sympathy that Anna Karenina or Emma Bovary does. Maybe that's because we don't know her whole story.

I’m firmly in the group that does not find Daniel to be too perfect. He is kind and loyal, but he also has trouble buckling down to work. He is assured of sufficient income and is of a poetic nature, but his need to find a real purpose in life is very clear (and not all that different from many other young men and women). Initially, I did find his reluctance to ask his uncle direct questions about his parentage a little strange, but then I remembered the customs of that era. I also wonder if Daniel is Jewish and if this is Eliot’s way of addressing the antisemitism of her era.
I am still very uncomfortable about Grandcourt and his pursuit of Gwendolen. There is a passage in Chapter XV which is absolutely chilling: “Grandcourt had not been altogether displeased by Gwendolen’s running away from the splendid chance he was holding out to her. The act had some piquancy for him…to be worth his mastering it was proper that she should have some spirit.” Despite his lackadaisical pursuit of her in Europe, I don’t think this evil man will give up. And now that Gwendolen’s family has lost their money, might she be persuaded to marry him and save the day?

And now that Gwendolen’s family has lost their money, might she be persuaded to marry him and save the day?

Interesting, maybe Mrs. Glasher could be bought off and sent to
America or Australia. I don't think Gwendolen would marry Grandcourt even for money if there was a chance it would be found out. There are probably other rich men who she could marry since she is so attractive.

Robin P wrote: "Interesting, maybe Mrs. Glasher could be bought off and sent to America or Australia.

With marriage off the table, she would probably be happy to be bought off, but who will do it? Greatcourt has not provided for or paid for her to go to the Colonies so far. Has he just ignored her for years?

I wonder if Lush has ever done this before - sabotaged potential love interest of his rich friend. I suppose he paid Mrs. Glasher some money to come up for that day with all the kids in tow.

Robin P wrote: "And now that Gwendolen’s family has lost their money, might she be persuaded to marry him and save the day?

Interesting, maybe Mrs. Glasher could be bought off and sent to
America or Australia. I..."

I’d like to see Gwendolen taking in washing. Her dazzling white archery dress could be worn as her uniform, a put down to all other washerwomen - Gwendolen washes whiter. Not sure if the carbolic soap would enhance her complexion, but the wringing of the clothes would be a good fitness substitute for horse riding.

That would strip that haughty pride away. She could at least retain her independence, keep her away from all the men she hates and help support her family. But it would limit the time she has to do exactly what she wants……to a few minutes a day.

However, probably a few more doses of reality (like Mrs. Glasher) are needed before she does anything remotely practical.

I’m behind after 3 very challenging weeks here. I’m also in the camp that feels Deronda is not too good. He’s got a great empathy for others. I don’t think he’s lazy either but has an anxious personality. I don’t have much else to add as the previous posts have been very thorough,