Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

The God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy is our April 2024 New School Group Read.

This is the Spoiler Thread.

Have you started reading yet? What are your first impressions?

I've finished the first 4 chapters and I'm loving it. The writing is so lyrical and beautiful.

I have read this before. I loved the book. It is a poignant one but I enjoyed it—judicious use of similes and metaphors to enhance the beauty of each line. The imagination and observations of the author and use of personifications are remarkable. Even the deepest sorrows are written hilarious with satire and mockery.

I started this book a few years ago. But I don't remember why I did not finish it. I will be starting this by the end of April.

I may be able to start this by the 18th of this month .

I finished the book yesterday. Are there discussion prompts? I don’t know how to begin. There were some phrases that made me pause to consider the writer’s artistry. And others that dismayed me entirely by word choice. The technique of telling parts of the narrative through a child’s viewpoint has the potential for heartrending poignancy.

Jerilyn wrote: "I finished the book yesterday. Are there discussion prompts? I don’t know how to begin. There were some phrases that made me pause to consider the writer’s artistry. And others that dismayed me ent..."

Hoping to start this book on 18th , tomorrow . Will be putting in comments as I progress .

Jerilyn wrote: "I finished the book yesterday. Are there discussion prompts? ..."

Share your thoughts about the novel’s setting and the impression the author creates of rural India. What universal themes are there in The God of Small Things that transcend the specific time and place in which the story is set?

Discuss the class differences among the characters in the novel, using Ammu’s and Velutha’s families as examples. To what extent are their lives shaped by the caste into which they’re born? Why does Vellya Paapen go to Mammachi and reveal what he knows about his son and Ammu, and why is he willing to kill Velutha because of it?

Katy, thank you for the prompts.

The setting in rural India supports readers in accepting the family and social behaviors in the novel. The author also uses several references to Heart of Darkness to help us realize that at least in this part of India, things were still that bad. Both Ammu and Margaret (and even Chacko), having experienced a more urban and modern society, contrast the family home as if time stands still there. There is a wild natural beauty, personified by the River. Dwellings are practically primitive. All this lends credibility to the awful things that occur.

Universal themes:
One class, race, or group of people subjugating another in order to elevate themselves. The caste system reminds me of historic slavery in America and today’s ongoing racism. How many generations will it take for a society to outgrow such egregious thinking?

Families are complicated. The firstborn son can do no wrong. Classic. The one who leaves and breaks tradition can never really be accepted at home again. In-laws. Need I say more?

Twins. The special bond between twin siblings has been explored in various ways: separated at or shortly after birth; royal substitutions; clairvoyant connections…

Government and law enforcement authorities as being disconnected and indifferent to those they serve.

Starting now. I can see the text is both like stories we know--universal themes --and unlike stories we know--the descriptions.

Sometimes when I read a novel from a culture I am not familiar with I chose to do a first read with a commitment to myself to return next year to do a closer read. I will do a first read now.

Jerilyn wrote: "Universal themes:
One class, race, or group of people subjugating another in order to elevate themselves. The caste system reminds me of historic slavery in America and today’s ongoing racism. How ..."

Good points , Jerilyn !
Actually , the Indian government , especially today's Modi government , is doing a lot to uproot the caste prejudices , but it will , I agree , take a long time to disappear, something that's been there for centuries ! The Modi government has , also , done a lot towards uplifting and encouraging the socially backward and weaker classes . This , itself , will go a long way in lessening the distance between the classes .
I will definitely be able to begin the book today . Curious to read this book since it's set in my own country , some 25 years ago .

I'm just about done and will add my thoughts here later this week.

Reading chapter 1 . Loving the writing style - The descriptions are nice ..... so vivid . But south Indian names are a bit tough to remember . Must be much more so for the Western members . I think I'll limit myself to remembering only the names of the important characters . ( Same problem with Russian stories... the names are very difficult ) .
I was really horrified to read that ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ little Sophie Mol was actually buried alive !! Is this a very remote village being described ? Isn't there a doctor or a para medic available to certify a person's death , before the individual is taken for burial ? Miserable state of affairs !!

And there's the father of the twins who treats his children like pieces of baggage.... shuffle them around as circumstances and personal advantages dictate !!! How shameful 😞 ! His son has completely stopped speaking ! Is this the result of childhood misadventures ? I will be reading further tonight, so I hope to find out 🤔 . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

The book is quite long - 368 pages . Will take sometime to finish . Looking forward to a probably interesting read , judging from the beginning .

I am reading a bit at at time. The descriptions are vivid. Also children's memories and emotions can be vivid--even when they are not quite quite sure what happened. That's from 1/4 through the book.

Cynda is healing 2024 wrote: "I am reading a bit at at time. The descriptions are vivid. Also children's memories and emotions can be vivid--even when they are not quite quite sure what happened. That's from 1/4 through the book."

That's true , Cynda ! That's the way it was in that beautiful book To Kill a Mockingbird] .

That's right! I remember your reading that book :)

I do see this is a narrative of small incidents--small things. I keep wondering what is the god. Is it carelessness or unawareness or learning about human condition? Maybe all that and more.

I have also seen self-control, but not yet real kindness. Or maybe I missed when not yet having a clue what I was reading.

Sabots
I am interested to read your removed spoilers, since this is the spoilers thread. There were many things that horrified me in this novel. How much of my emotional response is due to naïveté being from the US? Would you say this story gives a realistic portrayal?

Cynda is healing 2024 wrote: "I do see this is a narrative of small incidents--small things. I keep wondering what is the god. Is it carelessness or unawareness or learning about human condition? Maybe all that and more."

Hmm .... The God of Small Things .... yes , I am wondering too .

Well, I finished. For a 300 page book it felt like it was about twice as long. There was a lot I liked about it, and a lot I didn't. I'm going to just dump all my thoughts out here.

SPOILERS FOLLOW - READ NO FURTHER IF YOU HAVEN'T YET FINISHED THE BOOK

Although I could add that there's not much that happened in the book that "surprised" me. The plot jumps around in time so that we see the ramifications of certain events before we see the events themselves. This is one of the things I liked most about the book, and it almost made me want to go back to the beginning and read it again when I finished just so I could better understand how all the events flowed together chronologically, and also so I could better appreciate the consequences of the various important plot developments. The shuffling of events made me curious to understand how things happened - we know in the early pages that Sophie Mol has died but we don't know how it happened until much later in the story.

But there were some long dull stretches in the book that were tough to fight through. It didn't help that the prose vacillated wildly between "lovely" and irritating" without much middle ground. Sometimes, although not always, it's easier to read about nothing when at least the prose is beautiful. If not, no one would read Marcel Proust, right?

Author Roy is clearly talented. Even in the opening paragraphs she made me want to visit the village of Ayemenem with her beautiful descriptions of the flora and fauna, the smells and sights and sounds of the area. The setting of the Kerala region of India in the 1960s is interesting and Roy paints it vividly, with the caste structure and labor struggles that permeate much of the story.

But then she began to get irritating with a lot of what I call "Look At Me! Prose." Captializing things that don't need capitalizing ("Because Anything Can Happen to Anyone"), combining words into compound words (orangedrink lemondrink), phonetically changing words (Barn Owl becomes "Bar Nowl" and Nap becomes "Gnap"), the backwards reading of the children, and so forth. Like cooking with garlic, a little bit of this sort of thing goes a long way. Unfortunately, Roy takes the entire jar of minced garlic and dumps it in, then opens two or three more jars and dumps them in too. Ugh. The Wikipedia page for this book points out "that the reader reviews of this book on bookseller websites are so extremely opposed at times that it is difficult to imagine readers are saying this about the same book."

So it ends up, at least for me, as a Mixed Bag. Some wonderful parts and some parts that were irritating or boring or both. I gave it three stars. I'm in no hurry to read anything else by Roy, but I wouldn't be entirely opposed to it either.

Rahel also has grown up to become an excessively quiet person ... abnormally so . It's not Ammu's fault . The father is an alcoholic , who later deserts the family . Why marry in the first place , if you lack responsibility and maturity ? Spoiling the lives of your spouse and children, not to mention your aged parents ! I feel so sorry for the poor , miserably trapped , dependent family members of fathers who are alcoholic and abusive . Don't live yourself , and don't let others live ! appears to be the hopeless motto 🤔 .

Perfectly said RJ. I agree at just past 60%.

Jerilyn wrote: "Sabots
I am interested to read your removed spoilers, since this is the spoilers thread. There were many things that horrified me in this novel. How much of my emotional response is due to naïveté ..."

Is Sabots a participating member ? I couldn't find the name , Jerilyn , so I was wondering .

Well. . . .I have other things to add, just because I am wondering about the god. This God of Small Things may be that little thought in the head that won't let you go on without its presence being made known. When Sophia Mol asks the twins her cousins who is their father, they want to tell and not tell. Seems like a little thing. Yet if they tell, Ammu may love them a little less.

The lovely and irritating aspects of the story are in part the fault of this God. . . .so it seems to me.

Cynda is healing 2024 wrote: "Perfectly said RJ. I agree at just past 60%."

Thank you, Cynda.

Reading chapter 2 .... Ammu's story , which can leave no reader unruffled .... disgusted and horrified ! ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ More than the sickening Mr Hollickk , I am revolted by Ammu's drunken husband . What an animal he has become ! Or , am I unfairly only blaming the alcohol ? This man is truly rotten to his very core . Even without alcohol he would be leading a licentious existence .... an animal existence . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆
Will be posting a few quotes after finishing a few more pages . The author's language has impressed me so far ... she touches core emotions, some sad truths of life that leave the reader feeling frustrated and helpless . There's too much reality in this sorry work of fiction . Will humanity ever come out of this suffocating darkness ? Will strength and goodness eventually win over the weak and the evil . ..... 🪔🪔🪔🪔🪔 I think the answer is Yes because the majority of us have faith and belief, the majority of us , unlike Ammu's husband and Mr Hollik , do fear God and that highest court upstairs that we all have to face one day . ⚖
Interested and curious to know which way the author will take the story further and what are the author's beliefs . Will be posting a few quotes later today .

What gives me hope is that the god of small things has one arm, something indicating how ability is limited. See how awkward his physical interaction is with Ammu.

Oh drats. Or maybe he has destructive power because what he does is incomplete/ineffective. . . .Reading on.

Cynda is healing 2024 wrote: "What gives me hope is that the god of small things has one arm, something indicating how ability is limited. See how awkward his physical interaction is with Ammu."

Oh , so there's really a diety depicted , one with only one arm .... hmm . There are many religions followed in India , of which Hinduism , Christianity, Islam , Buddhism and Jainism are the main . There are also the Parsis . I suppose Ammu's family are Hindus . In Hinduism, itself , many Dieties are worshipped - Brahma ( the creator ) , Vishnu ( the destroyer ) , Shiv , Krishna, Durga mata ... all are very highly revered . The beautiful, inspiring and stabilizing relgious teachings, centered round these dieties , make up the spiritual backbone of the Hindu community of India , knitting the community together , and instilling spiritual values and awareness in the younger generations . This is really what all religions do to our entire human community as a whole . Not everyone , in the world , is like Ammu's husband or like Pappachi !! We make mistakes , but we learn from our mistakes , and we do repent . Divine forgiveness comes when repentance is true . So , one day , our religions and our spiritual mentors will help humanity to find the way to salvation.... freedom at last from the troubles that beset us so , on our earthly journey, and permission to enter our immortal home , where , the Scriptures all agree , there is only love and happiness . No more suffering, diseases , fragile old age and painful bereavements. Living forever under the protection of the Almighty. This is a goal worth striving for 🕯🪔🕯✝️☪️🕉☸☦ 🌤
I wonder which diety A.Roy is referring to . I am still a long way behind , Cynda ,

Won't be able to post the quotes I intended to tonight . Will do so tomorrow .

Yes Savita starting in Chapter 11 and so far. I am about 85% through. . . .Looking forward to your thoughts.

I was thinking more like a Kali-like god as he destroys and recreates in little bits.. . . . And his one arm compared to Kali's many may not be written in to the story by accident. . . . most likely not.

Cynda is healing 2024 wrote: "Yes Savita starting in Chapter 11 and so far. I am about 85% through. . . .Looking forward to your thoughts."

Thanks , Cynda . It's late night here , so I'll post the quotes tomorrow .
I am surprised by your knowledge of Mata ( mother ) Kali ( who is another form of Durga mata ) , whom I mentioned in my message . More tomorrow.

See you tomorrow, Savita.
I am aware of Kali because
* I went to a Texas/US university with a large international population, particularly from Southeast Asia, the Levant, North Africa.
* I sought out examples of woman's strength. Godesses provide such examples.
* I practiced yoga, taught by woman who attended courses led by Indian yogis and yoginis.

Yes I am aware of Kali. She is one powerhouse of god-woman--a true mata.

Cynda is healing 2024 wrote: "See you tomorrow, Savita.
I am aware of Kali because
* I went to a Texas/US university with a large international population, particularly from Southeast Asia, the Levant, North Africa.
* I sou..."

Cynda , I am truly impressed by your interest , respect and knowledge of oriental religions . Yes , indeed , mata Kali is a powerhouse of a god - woman . She is the angry , aroused form of mata Durga ..... aroused by witnessing injustice and dark deeds . She has the potential, as you've correctly pointed out , to both create and destroy . Of her four arms , the first symbolizes the power of creation , the second preservation , the third disillusion and destruction, and the fourth is raised in a gesture of blessings .
Hindu devotees call upon mata Durga or mata Kali to intervene whenever they are helpless in the face of powerful evil and injustice . There is great faith that sooner or later divine intervention will come to deliver them . 🙏 🪔🕉🪔🙏
I think divine intervention does indeed occur , but generally later rather than sooner . There's a lot of truth in the Western saying : God helps those that help themselves . Heaven is not at all indifferent to our sufferings and pleas . But Heaven wants us to make our own , utmost , effort first . Then , very , very surely Heaven does stop by to lend a helping hand . Fair enough , I say . That's the way it should be 🤔 ⚖ . And when Heaven does eventually begin to help, then slowly the knowledge and awareness sinks into the hitherto struggling soul , that surely kind angels have , now , taken over ... how else did all the immense difficulties vanish , or how else did a new pathway out of troubles appear 🕯 ? In the end we do realize that Heaven has no favorites . None . If we want Heaven 's help , protection and blessings , we have to earn them through our good karmas . True , Heaven helps those that help themselves . . True worldwide , and taught by all our religions . Amen 🙏 ✝️☪️🕉☸☦

Now for the quotes I want to post . They're from chapter 2 , page 55 and 56 . I was moved and disturbed by her description of the sad mockery involved in the process of beautifully and lavishly decorating a bride.... but let me set it down in the author's original words . Will do so after a very short break .

In chapter 2 , the horrible reason why ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Ammu's marriage broke down is revealed . Even after her husband tries to make her accept Mr Hollick 's sickening proposal , though she refuses , she still continues to live with her husband . Further , the author says : Ammu was repelled by the medicinal smell of stale alcohol that seeped through his skin , and the dry caked vomit that encrusted his mouth like a pie every morning. When his bouts of violence began to include the children ...... Ammu left her husband and returned , unwelcomed , to her parents in Ayemenem . To everything she had fled from only a few yea4s ago . Except that now she had two children. And no more dreams . .
Sooo .... Out of the fire , into the frying pan , and then , back into the fire ! . Is this how a young girl's tender dreams and hopes are murdered so brutally ? Ammu is not really a character limited to fiction . Neither is her fate a rarity in this world . An alcoholic husband, also a verbally and physically abusive one 🤔 . Is this what life is all about ? Especially for women who are not educated , and thus unable to revolt , stand on their own feet after this grave set back . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

More in the next message ⬇️

Here's the author's description of how ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ a young girl 's dreams and hopes get so horrifically mangled at the romantic ( !! ) , fairytale ( !! ) marriage altar 😒 . : .... her wedding photos : A foolish , jeweled bride . Her silk , sunset colored sari shot with gold . Rings on every finger . White dots of sandalwood paste over her arched eyebrows.... Ammu smiled bitterly.... that she had permitted herself to be so painstakingly decorated before being led to the gallows 😒 . It seemed so absurd. So futile . Like polishing firewood . .
Pregnancy , confinement and new motherhood are , themselves
, bewildering experiances for the newly wed girl . She needs so much support from her husband and the family elders . Support ??!! 😒 . Here this poor women is left grappling with a nightmare that will stretch for the rest of her life ! (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

Actually , educating women is the solution to this nightmare . Education does not mean , of course , that a women should opt out of marriage as soon as trouble starts brewing . All marriages have their rough stretches . Adjustment, from both s8des , should and must be the first option . Counseling has a definite and important role . When a marriage breaks , it's not only the couple who goes through trauma , there is also damage done to the chidren and the fragile , vulnerable, dependent elders of the family . 🤔 . Ethical and cultural values do guide that , wherever possible, all efforts should be made to save a failing marriage, for the best of all concerned and involved . A united front to face a difficult world is definitely the best strategy.
But , there is a limit to tolerance. If a spouse is absolutely not willing to adjust , and make amends ( in unacceptable behavior) , a divorce is definitely the sane solution . Here , a woman must be educated, and be capable of standing on her own feet . A perfectly happy , useful and normal life could lie ahead of her , and her children . The problem in India is that whereas in most parts , today , women are getting good education , there are stiil parts of the country where women live in purdah ( they have to cover their faces with a veil ) , and they do not receive much , if any , education. It's a great pity because, today , in India, women are not behind men in any field .... we have women working as train drivers ( these are trained engineers ) , pilots, scientists in India 's space research organization ( ISRO ) , and even in the armed forces ( since recently ) . Hope the situation continues to improve .
May women , worldwide , as they become more independent, still remember to inculcate forbearance, reasonable tolerance, wisdom and strength, so that the institution of marriage may , where possible, be preserved, and yet , when required , a bad marriage should be left behind and a woman , who is also a mother and a responsible daughter , should be able to forge a life for herself and her loved ones ( children and aging parents ) . 🕯

In reading The God of Small Things, I am reminded of The Sound and the Fury in particular and (American) Southern Gothic in general.

Like the narrator of The Sound in the Fury, the narrator of The God of Small Things tells the story in bits and pieces in an out-of-order sequence. Maybe could also be called "stream of consciousness."

Like in Southern Gothic, the family here has come down in status. The plantation is not planted and harvested, even the exotic garden will be let go. The pretentions are in place, the society allows them to hold their place, they are now socially less prominent--traditional landholders turned entrepreneurs of savory goods, not sturdy or enduring goods. There's an indication that the family is in a pickle.

Indeed they are in a pickle: The family must send away their own children to save face of the whole family.

This family has come down in the world.

Household gods--seen by others as an icon or statue or altar or mediation room or or --are always personal interpretations of belief/beliefs of household. My crucifix does not look like my neighbors crucifix because mine is personalized--personal household god.

What if the household god chose the household. What if the god who chose the household was a one-armed god who was understood by some others outside household to be a "hellish angel," forever creating problems. What if as at the end of the novel, (view spoiler)[ the household god could only do small things, like allow daily promises--the power of the god is not integrated--just little bursts, then all kinds of disconnected ineffective and harmful things can be done. (hide spoiler)]

In literature, eyes always mean something. Blind eyes indicate that a character--or here maybe the entire family--cannot perceive some truth--they are blind beyond the physical sense.

Not being of the culture, I am only able to understand some of how our family is blind. I can see how they are blind to how the laws concerning caste are beginning to change social practice.

I just started yesterday and finishing up chapter 1. Really enjoying your thoughts Cynda and Savita!! Thanks also for the spoilers warnings as I'm so late to start.

Greg wrote: "I just started yesterday and finishing up chapter 1. Really enjoying your thoughts Cynda and Savita!! Thanks also for the spoilers warnings as I'm so late to start."

Thanks , Greg ! Looking forward to your thoughts and views on this book . I suppose it is a little difficult for Western readers to fully understand an unfamiliar culture , its religion , its social practices , the mindset and the ethos of the people ( as Cynda has mentioned , though , really , Cynda has surprised me with her knowledge of mata Kali , and of yoga ) . But , from what I have read so far , A . Roy is doing a good job . Her language is simple but beautiful . She has captured the Indian scene well . Hope you enjoy the book and put down your candid impressions and suggestions .

Cynda is healing 2024 wrote: "In reading The God of Small Things, I am reminded of The Sound and the Fury in particular and (American) Southern Gothic in general.

Like the narrator of The Sound in the Fury, the n..."

I haven't read any book by William Faulkner yet , Cynda . Sara , too , has read this book ( by W . Faulkner) and given it 5 stars . I think I'll add it to my TBR shelf .