Dickensians! discussion

MARY BARTON - 2nd thread (conclusion)



Here is the concluding thread to discuss Mary Barton by Elizabeth Gaskell, which is our Dickensians! group read during 15th April - 15th June.

This read will be continue to be hosted by Claudia, who is doing an amazing job in opening our minds to the lives of the Lancashire millworkers.

This thread will cover chapters 19 onwards, beginning on 11th May.

***Please let Claudia comment first! Thank you.

Chapter 19

No protagonist has been able to sleep in the night from Thursday to Friday:

- Mary was harassed by “invading thoughts” most probably because of her father’s unusual behaviour and the news of Alice’s stroke, she stayed awake but slept briefly in the morning.

- Margaret was preoccupied by Alice’s health and went there first thing Friday in the morning and is now organising shifts with Mary.

- Mrs Wilson could not sleep for the same reason, sitting up by Alice’s bedside, worried that Jem was out of the house, turning up between 2 and 3 am, now Friday and turning up again sometime in the morning.

- Mrs Davenport has stayed there, been helping a lot at Mrs Wilson’s

- Mr Carson and the police investigators stayed awake and discussed. The Carson ladies were upset and bereaved.

Mary has slept late, but tries to make up for it by visiting the Wilsons before going to work, where she will be late anyway.

There she finds Alice confused and rambling from her stroke, talking constantly to her sister and mother as if she were a child again and they were still alive. She has been taken back to her happy childhood times and places in Cumberland, among her loved ones, birds she can no longer hear and flowers she can no longer see, and she seems perfectly happy but in need of much attention.

Jem has been home briefly at night between 2 and 3 am, and again in the morning. Mary agrees to visit Alice in the evening after work and is secretly glad to have a chance to see Jem again and perhaps talk to him.

In Miss Simmonds' workshop there is much gossip about Harry Carson's murder. Mary hears the news for the first time and is devastated. Although she had recently been afraid of young Mr Carson, she now felt 'an oppressive sorrow for him'. Miss Simmonds and her staff repeat that he was such a handsome young man, and everyone, Miss Simmonds at the forefront, hopes that the murderer, whoever he is, will be tried and hanged like Haman in the Book of Esther "in less than a week". Various reports come in from outside, while Mary weeps bitter tears on a silk dress she is working on.

A Whoddunit

It is still unclear to me which was the first detective story ever written. Several commentators claim that it was this or that title. Mrs Gaskell even mentions Jack Shephard, a novel with a detective plot, published in installments alternatively with Oliver Twist. Even if the author's name has not left an indelible mark on our memories Jack Shephard was very popular at that time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Sh...

When I first read Mary Barton, I felt, from now on, that it was very difficult to stop reading what is now turning into a suspense novel.

The Coroner’s inquest has taken place and concluded that evidence and clues led to “wilful murder against some person unknown”.

A policeman, No. B72, has testified having witnessed at what is now the scene of crime a fight between young Mr Carson and a foundry worker named Jem Wilson, about a young girl named Mary Barton. A gun has been found nearby. According to the detectives, Jem had a motive, a means, and an opportunity to kill Harry Carson as he had already met him once at the same place which was on his way home. The motive itself fits into the well-known four L (as PD James’s Adam Dalgliesh always says Love, Lust, Lucre and Loathing).

The ownership of the gun is to be ascertained. A detective skilled in such investigations is therefore sent “undercover” to Mrs Wilson who indeed all too easily identifies the weapon as Jem’s gun, with his ornaments.

A warrant empowering the police to arrest Jem has been issued, and Jem is arrested, once the ownership of the gun confirmed.

[The description of the foundry where Jem is arrested while working stressed the infernal, nightmarish aspect of what is happening to him. This description enhanced the feelings of dehumanising the picture of a cotton mill posted by Jean conveys. It also reminds of a description of Dante's Inferno as we saw earlier in the novel, but this reminded me also of the fiery furnace in the Book of Daniel (a recurring background symbol in another novel by Elizabeth Gaskell, but I don't want to spoil too much about that other novel). Moreover being arrested so hastily at work is very humiliating.]

A seamstress at Miss Simmond’s, tells that assizes are to come on next week.

Investigators have still to collect evidence “as regarded the young woman”

Reactions

The first reaction we see is gossiping. The sad news of Harry Carson's murder has spread throughout the town, or at least among those who knew him. Small groups of people talk as Mary leaves her house, but she barely notices them and has no idea why they are gathering and talking. The staff at Miss Simmond's is already informed and all suddenly have to run errands for her and gather additional information or gossips or spread some more. It sounds as if Miss Simmonds were the chief redactor of a tabloid. Mary Barton is now at the centre of the gossip. Thanks to Sally everyone knows about her flirtatious relationship with Harry Carson. They are all watching her, how she looks and reacts.

Then, everyone around seems to be excited by the perspective of a “handsome reward” to collect evidence or elaborate clues, as if this were a good detective story. The police officer hired to go in plain clothes and undercover to Mrs Wilson finds that there is not enough fun in this, as Mrs Wilson too easily confirms that it is her son’s gun.

Carson uses all his material means and energy to obtain “a speedy conviction, a speedy execution to satisfy his craving thirst for blood”. His bereavement is transformed into a blind rage and a thirst for vengeance.

Mrs Wilson is overwhelmed by too many difficulties. She has lost her twins and her husband, her sister-in-law is in a state of deep confusion after a stroke and cannot be left alone. She does not believe her son was capable of murder, but she is about to turn her anger on Mary Barton. Her reactions are understandably erratic, but the repeated shocks have clouded her judgement.

Welcome all to the 2nd thread!

Thank you Jean for your logistic help and this picture which illustrates the gigantic scale of Manchester cotton-mills!

We have now passed the half-way mark in terms of chapters. Mary Barton is becoming a page-turner!

We will read chapter 20 on Monday 13 May.

Until then, let's comment!

Claudia wrote: "It is still unclear to me which was the first detective story ever written ..."AND It also reminds of a description of Dante's Inferno as we saw earlier in the novel, but this reminded me also of the fiery furnace in the Book of Daniel

Ch 19: I am intrigued by Claudia's referring to the Book of Daniel in regards to the furnace-house. Here is what Mrs. Gaston says:

"But, in the furnace-house, a deep and lurid red glared over all; the furnace roared with mighty flame. The men, like demons, in their fire-and-soot colouring, stood swart {dark, swarthy} around, awaiting the moment when the tons of solid iron should have melted down into fiery liquid. . . "

And then "black figures . . . came athwart the deep-red furnace light . . . " This scene does remarkably invoke the following verses in Daniel.

"Then Nebuchadnezzar was so filled with rage against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego that his face was distorted. He ordered the furnace heated up seven time more than was customary, and ordered some of the strongest guards in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and to throw them into the furnace of blazing fire." Daniel 3:19-20 (NIV).

So Mr. Carson's enraged demand for vengeance against Jem does remind one of the imagery of these very famous verses in Daniel. It remains to be seen if the lesson in Daniel will be replicated in the following chapters of Mary Barton!

That fiery scene in the foundry was so very gothic and the Daniel reference is right up there with the imagery from the men in the fiery furnace. This chapter is really creating more suspense as Claudia mentioned. We are concerned for Jem and now Mary’s name has been added to the list. She is so clueless about the murder and probably doesn’t realize what’s about to happen. She knows nothing about the quarrel either. This type of scenario is one in which I am glad to be the reader who knows all of the happenings and goings on.

I am also curious abut the remark made that the murderer be hanged like Haman. Haman was the king’s right hand man who wanted to kill Mordecai, Esther’s uncle and had a gallows built to hang him on. In the end, Haman’s plot to murder all the Jews was discovered and the irony that he was hanged on the gallows he’d had built has me thinking if there is anything to wonder about with our story?

Lee: nice to see you again! Thanks a lot for parallel quotes! Let's see if the lesson from the three young men in the fiery furnace is relevant for our present story

Lori: indeed Haman was mentioned. In my opinion he is mentioned as a telling and impressive example of justice on a murderer punished in time for what he had plotted to do.

When the Book of Esther (the only book in the Bible with no express mention of God) is read for Purim in synagogues, children move their rattles briskly each time Haman's name is mentioned so that you end up not even hearing it. I believe some religious Jewish people and rabbis say when mentioning his name in a discussion "his name be erased" (from the Book of Life).

Indeed we know all, while protagonists are not aware of significant issues: Mary doesn't know anything about the struggle between Jem and Harry, while John Barton doesn't know anything about Mary's flirt with Harry Carson. Mary and John don't know that Esther had that conversation with Jem and delivered significant information. Most of the suspense and the page-turning effect comes from this failed communication but also failed perception and failed encounters.

Lori wrote: ".......In the end, Haman’s plot to murder all the Jews was discovered and the irony that he was hanged on the gallows he’d had built has me thinking if there is anything to wonder about with our story..."

Lori, thank you for the story of Haman. It adds a lot of additional depth and connotations to our story.

ETA:
Claudia, thank you also for your comments on the Haman story. "His name be erased" is a harsh sentence. Imagine being erased from the Book of Life! Everything you did and lived would be erased, even the good.

Lee, the passages you brought up bring to focus the dangerous situation Jem finds himself in. The law won't help him as the fires are being stoked hotter and hotter for him to be thrown into.

I'm on pins and needles and looking forward to tomorrow. This story has become something I never thought it would. I never imagined such a dark story of murder and vengence. I look forward to how this story continues.

I’m anticipating what’s coming too. I never thought that this story would include this type of suspense.

Thanks all!
I did not think either that the story would develop into such a dark story of murder when I first read.

Chapter 20

We are still on Friday late afternoon or early evening.

After work, Mary goes to the Wilsons' as planned, to help Jane Wilson look after poor, confused Alice - who is unaware of anything - and to cheer up Jem. Mary feels better, even if she reproaches herself for it, because she feels forever freed from the lurking Harry Carson. Mary looks forward to meeting Jem and hopes to make things right with him. When she greets Jane, she is shocked when Jem's mother explodes in anger and grief. Mary tries to find out what really happened to explain Mrs Wilson's anger. Jane tells her that Jem has been arrested and taken to New Bailey Prison to await trial and sentence, and that it is all Mary's fault. Jem faces execution.

Mrs Wilson, who is deeply convinced of Jem's innocence, is devastated, as is Mary, who is shocked and confused by what has happened. How could Jem have known that young Mr Carson was courting Mary? Yet she remembers Jem's last words to her when she refused him.

Mrs Wilson's anger is softened by Mary's pitiful sobs and displays of humility. Jane asks her to leave, but Mary begs her insistingly to stay. Jane sends Mary away. Mrs Wilson does not rule out a return to better feelings.

Mary staggers home, haunted by the sight of the half-penny broadsides, those newspaper-like single sheets of paper that were sold on the streets, reporting news of crude crimes, now reporting Jem's crime.

On her way, she sees a desperate, poor Italian boy, one of those who were showing white mice. He is now starving and begging for food. While she is in a hurry to go home, crying out her grief in her loneliness, she takes her piece of food and returns to the boy to give it to him. She has made him happy, and it was a brief moment of kindness in this unforgiving world.

Mary lies on the floor and cries until she falls asleep. She dreams of her mother, but is awakened by a voice asking to be let in. Mary rushes to the voice, which she recognises as her mother's.

As Mary calls for her mother, the visitor turns out to be her long-lost Aunt Esther.

Mothers

This deeply moving chapter features mothers: Jane Wilson, the late Mary Barton and, more fleetingly, an unknown Italian mother.

Jane Wilson, after the shock of Jem's arrest and the fact that he now faced the death penalty, has become a more realistic and honest woman overnight. At first she was a little moody, even unpleasant at times, if her husband George had not managed to calm her down. She seemed self-centred, inclined to tell the whole history of her troubles to anyone, even to the undercover policeman who came with her son's gun.

Now, rightly or wrongly, she blames Mary for what happened to Jem. She calls Mary a Dalila, the archetype of a beautiful prostitute who found out Samson's secret, cut his hair while he slept and thus robbed him of his strength, caused his wounds at the hands of the Philistines and made him a prisoner in a Gaza jail (Judges, chapter 16).

Jane goes through a terrible ordeal as a mother, anticipating her son's hanging, wanting to die because it would be the end of her world. She remembers happy times, how Jem was so sweet as a little boy. She has the reactions that all mothers have when their children are in trouble, she remembers when they were little children.

She is realistic about herself: she is not able to be completely calm and accept Mary's presence near her, but she does not rule out the possibility that her feelings for her might be different in the near future. Though blinded by her anger and grief, she begins to see Mary's humility.

Mrs Barton is mentioned by nearly everyone in this short chapter.

Mrs Wilson, in her anger, cries out that it is better that Mary's mother does not witness her daughter's "profligacy".
Mary herself instinctively calls her mother for help in the thick of the crisis.

When she interacts with the Italian boy, and after she has come back to him with a little something to eat, not much, it reminded me of the widow's mite in the Gospel. (see for instance Mark 12:41-44. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others.They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.") Mary is acting as her father did when he pawned his valuables to help the poor Davenports in their cellar.

Mary understands only one word in the boy's stream of words in his mother tongue: "Mamma mia". When she gives him food - the only food she has! - she is like a mother to him: he kisses her hand and she kisses his forehead in a moment of kindness.

Is he calling her mamma because she has made him happy in his misery, or is he telling her sweet memories of his mother in Italy?

Mary remembers her own mother Mary, her accent from the South of England, her manners, sweet memories of happy times when both her parents were happy. She dreams of her mother, of all the dead loved ones around the Bartons. There is a thin line between reality and dream, then between dream and reality again, when someone knocks at the door and calls her in her mother's voice.

Interesting passage about dreams and reality. A voice, so similar to her mother's voice, Esther asking Mary to be let in. What a great cliffhanger!

Of Mice and Men

The poor Italian boy with a white mouse reminded me of Mrs Cadwallader, the town gossip, in Middlemarch by George Eliot. I suppose you have all read Middlemarch.

That lady is mentioning Will Ladislaw, of far half-Polish origin, as "an Italian showing white mice", which he was not.

What a great cliffhanger!

We will be hanging on the cliff - just like a certain protagonist of A Pair of Blue Eyes, by Thomas Hardy, not on the gorgeous northern coast of Cornwall, but wherever we are, until Wednesday, 15 May (chapter 21)!

I found this chapter to be the most positive that we've read in some time. Good things happened here. In the depths of despair and grief, there was a form of peace, too. Jane begins to feel kindness towards Mary, Mary is soothed by her mother, Mary helps a boy who needs help, Esther returns.
These are small things in the scope of what's happening in the world of these characters but there hasn't been a glimpse of good things happening and now a few good things have occurred.
While there's danger and sadness, there is also some good.

Claudia, I like your inclusion of Bible verses. Gaskell was well versed in the Bible and could very much have taken inspiration from these passages. They fit so aptly into her story.
Jesus blessed the widow with his words, perhaps Gaskell is blessing Mary in a way. As the epitaphs point in a direction that that chapter will take, perhaps Gaskell takes the Bible passages as directions for her story, in some sense.

Anyway, I found this chapter, for all it's grief and fear to also show some peace (the beginnings thereof) for our characters. It's just a spot of respite, but it will help them gather strength, I hope.

Petra wrote: "I found this chapter to be the most positive that we've read in some time. Good things happened here. In the depths of despair and grief, there was a form of peace, too. Jane begins to feel kindnes..."

Indeed Petra, you have touched on an essential point in this novel, and it also applies to Mrs Gaskell's other novels: there is always some positivity. a sense of peace or a moment of kindness, even in the midst of suffering!

She has her own compassionate way of describing people or situations - such as the Italian boy or, formerly, the lost Irish little one. Through such thought-provoking encounters, she is telling us much.

I am so very curious now to see what Esther will be wanting to talk with Mary about. What a cliffhanger, indeed! I appreciate Claudia’s commentary regarding mothers in this chapter. I hadn’t seen the theme until it was pointed out but it is rather striking how we see the different aspects of mothers. I can understand Mrs. Wilson’s quick off the cuff, blaming reaction but on the other hand, I hope she doesn’t remain pointing the finger at Mary for Jem’s situation. Mary is already blaming herself remembering the words that Jem last said to her. I sure hope Esther has some good news or advice for Mary.

I like what Petra said about the positive vibe underneath the sorrow in this chapter. We are sure in need of some sun and goodness amidst all the suffering.

One other Biblical reference from Mrs. Wilson was when she told Mary "thou wert not good enough to wipe the dust off his feet".

Mrs. Wilson wants Mary to know that she told her Jem that she wasn't good enough for him and that he should let her go.

This comes from Matthew 10:14 "If no one welcomes you or listens to your words, as you leave that house or town, shake its dust off your feet."

This was Jesus' words to his disciples as he gave them instructions for their own ministries as they went from place to place telling of Jesus and his miracles. He was telling them basically that they would not be welcome in many places.

Indeed! Thank you Lori!

I wondered if Mrs Wilson was not using a mixture of two verses, Matthew 10:14 and John 1:27 "He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose."

Jane also said "Out upon thee with thy angel's face, thou whited sepulchre!"(from Matthew 23:27, "Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanliness.")

Pretty hard...

Great Biblical references, Lori and Claudia! I completely missed both of them. I especially like the "whited sepulchres" - how shocking!

Agree about the great cliffhanger to end Chapter 20. Suddenly, it feels like there will be a very frantic pace as we head towards the finish line. I like the many allusions mentioned as well. My interest is piqued at how things will unfold.

We started out reading a commentary on Victorian life in Manchester which morphed into a lovesick melodrama which has now morphed again, but this time into a thriller. I’m impressed and wondering where Gaskell is taking us next.

Kathleen wrote: "We started out reading a commentary on Victorian life in Manchester which morphed into a lovesick melodrama which has now morphed again, but this time into a thriller. I’m impressed and wondering w..."

Exactly. This is getting very Wilkie Collins-esque in the 2nd half.

Thanks all!
Great description of what we are experiencing, Kathleen!
I had not yet thought of Wilkie Collins but it is a good comparison right now, Franky!

Chapter 21

Esther at Mary Barton’s Friday evening after sunset.

Flash-back on the early hours at dawn on the same day.

Esther, being a night bird, heard about Harry's murder early Friday morning. She has heard that Jem was involved and fears that her advice to him may have led him to murder Harry. She goes to investigate the scene at dawn and notices a track on the dust of the path. She searches in the neighbouring field. There she finds a piece of paper that the killer must have used as a wadding in his gun. She discovers that the paper has Mary's name and address written on it in Jem's handwriting. She quickly leaves
the scene of crime and vanishes into the busy town.

She eavesdrops wherever people gather and picks up unnoticed valuable information walking near police officers and seeing Jem brought handcuffed. She walks and hides, gathering as much rumours, information, conjecture, suspicion as possible.

She knows that John Barton is out of home, so she decides to go to Mary's in the early evening. [Note: This is now Friday evening, after Mary has returned from Ancoats, fed the hungry Italian boy and fallen asleep on the floor and dreamed of her mother.] First, Esther pawned her flashy clothes for a more decent outfit and goes to the Barton house.

Esther pretends to be a mechanic's wife, but Mary resents her aunt for abandoning the family so many years ago. They discuss the murder. Esther is overacting her part, interrupted by a persistent cough.

Esther prepares to leave and gives Mary a false married name, Mrs Fergusson, and a false address, 145 Nicholas Street in Angel Meadows. When Mary tries to kiss her aunt, Esther pulls away and tells Mary never to kiss her. Esther runs out into the night, leaving Mary bewildered.

Who is Esther?

A “fallen woman”?

This may be our first impression, for we know Esther's story. She is now a prostitute because she has no other way to survive. Her background story is very similar at first to that of Fantine in Les Misérables. She sees herself as "beyond redemption", although Jem was touched by her story and wanted to take her home to be cared for by his mother and Alice. Her pawning of her streetwalking clothes for more modest ones shows that she does not want to be banished by Mary, who is wholly unaware of her story (My italics)

The epigraph are the first lines of Gretchen’s song in Faust, First Part(1808) by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Gretchen, short for Margarete, is a very young and beautiful innocent woman, symbol of purity and virtue. She is wooed by Faust and falls in love with him, becomes pregnant, is desperate and kills her child. She is sentenced to death. She went a dangerous path of despair and is known as a “fallen woman”. Her song is known as a Lied by Schubert, Gretchen am Spinnrade, Gretchen at the spinning wheel.
Here a great rendition by Kiri The Kanawa:
https://youtu.be/MY0eeotSDi8?si=ihY7V...

The closing lines of this chapter “She rushed in the outer darkness of the street and there wept long and bitterly” allude openly to well-known biblical verses from Matthew 25:30 "And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”(NIV).

It is also an unveiled allusion to apostle Peter, who thrice betrayed Jesus before the cock crowed. "And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me". (Luke 22:34 KJV) "And Peter went out, and wept bitterly". (Luke 22:62 KJV)

A good angel under the guise of a bad angel?

Esther has caused many worries for her family. Still, she has found this tiny scrap of evidence which might have incriminated someone. We noticed that she found it, discarded it, yet picked it up again. Someone’s fate is hanging on that very fragile and tiny thread.

[Note to us amateurs of detective stories: no, the scene of crime was not guarded nor secured by police yellow ribbons, nor did they comb the surroundings].

Her false address is eloquently situated in Angel Meadow. Is this a paradox or an explanation?

An anti-Queen Esther?

At the right time, at the right place, just as Queen Esther of the Book of Esther made a difference where God had placed her – even if this is the only biblical book, with the Song of Songs where the name of God is never mentioned.

Esther’s uncle Mordechai says to his niece “For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?” Esther 4:14 NIV.

Queen Esther is described as beautiful, while our Esther is not beautiful anymore. She is now a broken and alcohol addictive woman, a probably sick woman, not listened too by anyone, roaming as a prostitute in the “outer darkness”.

But, just as Queen Esther saved the Jewish people in exile in Susa, Esther’s visit to Mary may be crucial.

The omnipresent and omniscient narrator?

Interestingly, Esther has been in the background since the beginning of the novel, never seen but always there. Her disappearance, thinks John, has shocked Mrs Mary Barton and caused a shock which led to the death of her and her unborn baby. Esther has tried to reveal something to John Barton, who has reacted violently, refusing even to hear her.

She knew everything from the very beginning, spying on everyone, eavesdropping, following all the possible protagonists, gathering information from the neighbours’ gossips.

Her encounter with Jem allowed her to reveal Mary's secret flirt with Harry Carson. But it has also allowed the conflictual meeting between Jem and Harry Carson to take place on an alley by Turner Street, now the scene of crime.

Esther has heard of Harry's violent death before anyone else, and has gone unnoticed to several places where she could learn more, searching the scene of the crime and the adjacent field. She has found evidence that could implicate either Mary or Jem. It is still unclear to Esther how and who did it. However, this tiny piece of paper is a key piece of evidence, as Mary immediately understands where it came from - and perhaps we do too.

We notice that whenever Esther appears or disappears, something crucial happens and dramatically changes the course of the story.

Now it is up to you!

We will read chapter 22 tomorrow on Thursday 16 May.

Boy, this meeting is another example of miscommunication, this time brought on by Esther's shame. She told so many mistruths to Mary that Mary didn't get to know her or understand her at all.
It's so sad that these two can't learn about each other and lean on each other. Hopefully that time will come.
The cough that Esther has is worrisome.

Claudia, you've given us many things to consider about Esther. She's an ordinary, loveable person who is pushed to the corners of Society and alienated from her family because of one decision.....a decision that was precarious because of societal standards and expectations.
I don't think her lover wanted to leave her (they'd been together for years and had a child....he seemed happy), but he had to return to his family because of obligations to them and he didn't have the courage to bring Esther back with him.
Society puts the shame on women, which left Esther without a path back to her family in her time of greatest need.

Re that quote from Matthew 25:30 in context with our story: "throw that worthless servant outside" is harsh if we see it as pertaining to Esther. She's far from worthless, but she sees herself as such because of her situation.
I'm curious now about the story in Matthew behind this quote. It sounds rather cruel; there must be a back story.

The wad of paper is intriguing. I still don't believe that Jem did this, so how did his handwriting (and gun) get to the scene of the crime?

All in all, I found this a sad chapter. It could have brought Esther and Mary together, yet it seems to have driven a wedge between them, due to lies and shame. Both women are alone in their worlds and isolated from help and comfort.

Petra wrote: "Boy, this meeting is another example of miscommunication, this time brought on by Esther's shame. She told so many mistruths to Mary that Mary didn't get to know her or understand her at all.
It's..."

Great point on miscommunication between Mary and Esther, Petra! Once again we notice that Esther knows everything about Mary but Mary does not know anything about her aunt.

Re Matthew 25:30.
This theme of outer darkness comes up three times in Scripture, only in Matthew (Matthew 8:12, 22:13 and 25:30)

In Matthew 25:30 it comes as a conclusion to the parable of talents. I think the worthless (or unworthy, depending on translations) servant represents someone who did not trust God, and did not serve Jesus with all their heart (hence being casted out in the outer darkness). However this parable has been much discussed and perhaps misunderstood at times - so that I hope some of our Bible reading specialists will help!

More concretely, I connected this "outer darkness" and the apostle who "wept bitterly" to Esther's words in her encounter with Jem, Chapter 14, "You can't do nothing for me. I am past hope." and a bit further: "The colder, the bleaker, the more stormy the night, the more certain you will be to find me." She has a very sad story.

The Parable of the Talents demonstrates how differently we all are in using the gifts we all have been given by God.

Three servants were given 5, 3 or 1 talent( money or coins) by their master. Only the two with more coins earned more than they started with but the one was too afraid to try to use it to gain more. He hid it in the ground.

We all have gifts- mothering, teaching, leading, etc. and we need to use them in order to further God's kingdom rather than hiding them in fear.

“For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Thank you Lori!

Petra, I had the same thoughts about miscommunication in this chapter. It is just so frustrating and unfortunate for these women who should be able to tell each other their hearts. This was definitely due to Esther’s shame. Had she been truthful, Mary would’ve most likely accepted her as Jem did and tried to help her.

Now I’m wondering what Mary will do with this information about Jem and the paper. Who could have written it if not Jem and if it’s Jem’s writing, who could have gotten hold of it and planted it or placed it at the scene???

I wanted to make this comment last chapter and got distracted, but it applies to most chapters. Most of my discussion comments on this book are leaning toward the technical aspect of Gaskell's writing rather than story. I earlier tried to follow on Claudia's lead on how Gaskell is a master of obliquely, indirectly entering a scene or imparting important information. I will later try and develop thoughts on her use of details and "business to further engage the reader, but an example of what I mean by detail is the feeding of the "pet companion," by the Italian boy in the last chapter. This is an extra detail that IMO differentiates the great author from the good or average. It is not only a detail that most authors would ignore but it fits a purpose beyond its simple insertion. It is a mouse, thus a cute scene, thus memorable. It builds on a Christian theme of compassion and sharing as Mary helps the boy and the boy then helps the mouse. It balances the picture from when Mrs. Wilson disparaged Mary's character by offering us an opposite view. This leads me to my main comment today. Gaskell is constantly contributing backstory, building the scene and enlarging our world view or advancing the story and developing themes through these technical elements.

If we look at the last chapter note how we're mostly getting backstory and character on Esther, but the tension in the scene is being created between the back and forth between Esther and Mary in their conversation. So while we feel the tension we are still attending to the backstory and also being reminded of Jem's plight and also being given potential clues in a mystery. It is marvelous how much complexity Gaskell is incorporating into this simple scene. And as readers we react, our minds work, we remember and all of this contributes to a classic.

Sam wrote: "I wanted to make this comment last chapter and got distracted, but it applies to most chapters. Most of my discussion comments on this book are leaning toward the technical aspect of Gaskell's writ..."

Thank you Sam for these valuable comments!

Thanks for insisting on the boy feeding his mouse - also sharing his food with it in chapter 20. We do find such apparently tiny but significant details in the course of the novel.

Indeed the conversation in chapter 21, its tone, some insistence between Mary and Esther shows several details.

For instance "You will not tell. You never will tell," demanded Mary.... Mary, a few lines earlier is described "as if petrified by some horror abruptly disclosed" and further Esther insists on Mary destroying that piece of paper.

It means Mary knows something that Esther does not and that we do not either.

Lori wrote: "The Parable of the Talents demonstrates how differently we all are in using the gifts we all have been given by God.
....

We all have gifts- mothering, teaching, leading, etc. and we need to use them in order to further God's kingdom rather than hiding them in fear...."

Thank you, Lori. What an interesting parable and lesson. I'm going to keep this in mind as the story continues. I'm sure Gaskell means for it to be meaningful to this story.

Chapter 22

After Esther has left, still Friday evening, Mary closes the curtains and shutters. She looks again at the fragment of paper which she has identified with certainty: it is from a Valentine once sent to her by Jem and where she had copied Samuel Bamford's poem when John was back from London after the Chartist expedition, and which she had given to her father.

She searches John's room thoroughly, hoping that the paper from which it was torn is not there. She finds it in one of John's coat pockets. When she compares the Valentine with the fragment, she sees that it is a perfect match. Mary is devastated when she realises that her father is the murderer.

She tries to work out how and why it happened. Why was her father in possession of Jem's gun, if it was Jem's gun. Was he an accomplice? Had he told John Barton that Mary was flirting with Harry Carson? It seems impossible that John could have heard this from Jem. Jem was incapable of telling her father about Harry Carson without first telling her that he would reveal it.

Mary is aware that she is the sole keeper of a secret.

For the time being, she feels that there is no point in arguing about her father's irrational act, as he has not been rational lately.
This all means that Jem is innocent, and that she has to find a way to save Jem without betraying her father.

The narrator – Mrs Gaskell’s voice, speaking from experience – operates a long and most sensible digression about how most people react to our sorrows. They try to comfort the bereaved saying them that they should not be upset after all because there was nothing to be done against what happened. This creates the opposite effect. Those who mourn do mourn because they could not do anything.

Mary is realistic and decides that she must eat something and drink water, and sleep to restore her strength. She knows that she is friendless and penniless and has to be independent.

She goes out in the night to a water pump. This allows a beautiful second digression by the narrative voice, clearly Mrs Gaskell’s, who compares the severe mineral city skyline in the darkness with somewhere in the countryside where she saw the hills and fields in the silence of the night when she was mourning. [We remember that her son William died while in Wales, at Plas yn Penrhyn near Blaenau Ffestiniog.]

Before going to bed, Mary thoroughly burns the paper Esther gave us, as she had promised her aunt.

When she wakes up on Saturday morning, Mary suddenly remembers what has happened. It is a nightmare, but she realises that, as Jem is innocent, she must find out where he was and with whom when Harry Carson was killed.

Mary decides to contact Job Legh, who is more knowledgeable about many things.

When Mary calls, Job and Margaret are having breakfast. They have clearly been talking about something earlier and Mary feels that they are not as friendly and welcoming as they usually are. Job is reluctant to speak at first, saying that Jem probably did it, after all Jem had no excuse, but an understandable reason for reacting the way he did. Mary feels embarrassed by all the gossip that has spread through the town.

She had never told anything about her flirt with Harry Carson to Margaret before, so that her friends, and particularly Margaret, are disappointed by her “duplicity”. Margaret would rather have no further contact with Mary.

Still, Mary insists sincerely and passionately that Jem is innocent. Job informs her that Jem is going to be tried on Tuesday. Mr Legh says that this all sounds hopeless, but he advises Mary to ask Mrs Wilson about Jem’s whereabouts.

Margaret knows that Jem went with Will Wilson on Thursday evening on his way to Liverpool. There were so many things happening at the same time, including Alice’s stroke. Mary feels no real sympathy from Job and Margaret and braced her heart to be strong herself.

She now visits Jane Wilson who is understandably deeply affected by all this. She seems to find "pleasure in martyrdom" and incriminates Mary for all what happened.

Indeed, Jem went out near upon five on Thursday evening and went with Will part of the way to Liverpool. Will did not accept Jem’s five shillings for the fare by train and preferred to walk. In the meantime, Jem has just been transferred to Kirkdale [back then, it was an outskirt of Liverpool, now it is a district of Liverpool] in a prison-van.

Jane had not seen her son. She was so upset and confused the night before that she did not visit him when he was still in the New Bailey.

Mary visits Alice, whose condition is deteriorating and seems happy in her childhood world.

Jane seems calmer, influenced by Mary's kind words.

Mary is haunted by her father's deed but feels compelled to defend Jem. She is torn between the truth and a heavy secret.

Secrets

I hope it is not too much of a spoiler to say that there is a secret in every Elizabeth Gaskell novel I have read (five novels so far). I am still puzzled by it and trying to make sense of it.

Secrets are an exciting device in a narrative as they keep the readers on track and stimulates their imaginations. It is a crucial plot device that makes the story even better because we discuss it and ask ourselves what the next step would be or what would we do in such a situation.

Mrs Gaskell's secrets are no common secrets. They are always dramatic things that only two persons, here Mary and her father - how far Esther has understood what happened ? -, or, in other novels, at most two or three people, silent as the grave, are custodians of, and that no one else should know, lest their whole world collapse. Elizabeth Gaskell’s secrets make a real difference between her novels and many other novels of the same period.

Rosemary Bodenheimer has written essays on Elizabeth Gaskell and particularly one on the significance of secrets in her novels. Here is a link to this essay, which, depending on your own sensitivity to spoilers should be read with caution, firstly because it is full of spoilers, and secondly because it may influence us before we have finished this book but also Mrs Gaskell’s other novels.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v29/n...

Up to you!

We will read and discuss chapter 23 on Saturday 18 May.

Poor Mary! What a horrible secret to have to keep.
I don't know if I'm totally convinced yet that her father was part of this murder (beyond being part of the lottery) but would not be able to explain the paper wadding or the gun getting into a third party's hands. So I'm baffled and quite worried about Mary's father. We haven't seen him since he stormed out of the house on the night of the murder.

I'm a bit sad that Job and Margaret turned cool on Mary without hearing her side. Another instance of a lack of communication.

Someone has to hurry to Will before he leaves for America. There's only a week, if I remember correctly, before his ship sales and about a week before Jem will be tried and (possibly) hung. Time is tight.

Thank you for your enlightening comments, Claudia. I also appreciate you and Lori guiding us through the Biblical quotations.

Mary must feel distraught--the two men that she loves, her father and Jem, are possible killers of Harry Carson. Since John Barton and the other union men have been using opium to reduce their hunger, their moral judgments may have been diminished. How can Mary find an alibi for Jem without implicating her father?

Will said that he was going to visit relatives on the Isle of Mann before the boat sailed. It's going to be very difficult for someone to reach Will while he is traveling for Jem to use him as an alibi. The court date is coming up quickly like a threatening black cloud.

I don’t remember John Barton indicating when he would return from his trip. Where was it that he was going on the train…to Edinburgh? If it was a third person, John might have an alibi too. But I have been thinking of John since the lottery. Especially given the emotional changes he has been undergoing.

Sue, I'm not sure when (or if) he's expected back. I am hoping that his trip was a real one and meant that he's not responsible for the murder either but he was in such a state when he left that it's hard to know whether he spoke the truth or not.
But (and my head is turning this one around), who else had access to the card with Jem's handwriting on it and Jem's gun?

Connie, I'm concerned, too, at how quickly the courtdate is coming up. It doesn't leave anyone much time to sort anything out.

We are waiting, impatiently waiting. Gaskell has set up each scene for some action. I've carefully not read the chapter heading for tomorrow to keep some surprise, but am expecting action. Perhaps it will be from John.

I'm not reading ahead, either, Kathleen. It's killing me not to read and find out what happens.

Chapter 23

Mary is gradually collecting her thoughts and tries to overcome the chilling tragedy she has been thrown into since she has understood that her father killed young Mr Carson.

She is now concentrating on providing an alibi to save Jem's life. She cannot ask Jem, who is now in Kirkdale prison awaiting trial. Only Will can help her. She tries to piece together some details: he was supposed to visit his relatives on the Isle of Man and was expected back in Liverpool on Monday. His ship is the John Cropper and it is due to sail soon. Mary realizes that she can rely on only herself.

When she is coming back home, her neighbour is handing her over a subpoena, a parchment that summons her as a witness to the Assize trial on Tuesday in Liverpool. The neighbour, in her neighbourly wisdom, knows all: Jem will be hanged, the other one was Mary’s sweetheart.

Mary is standing beyond such gossip and takes the matter to Job Legh who is the most knowledgeable in laws among her direct acquaintances. Job, however, little believes that Jem is innocent, but, moved by Mary’s sincerity and insistence, he accepts to help her the best he can. He sees that Mary is distressed since she has been summoned as a witness, and upon her question on what to say at the court, he replies: ”The truth is best for all times.”

Margaret is coming home. Mary feels intimidated by her judgmental attitude, her icy manner and her silence. Still, the young lady is in better dispositions than she was in the morning.
They invite Mary to eat with them.

Margaret has just visited Jane Wilson and Alice. She says that Jane is ”crazed”, not coherent but certain of one thing: Jem is innocent.

Mary is determined to get hold of Will Wilson, she is sure that she is right and will do all she can for Jem’s sake. She trusts in God. Job says that Jem needs a lawyer and already thinks of a Mr Cheshire, a lawyer and leisurely entomologist he had contacts with.

Margaret's heart begins to soften. She gives the name and address of Will's lodger in Liverpool, a Mrs Jones, Nicholas Street, Milk-House Yard. Job sincerely says that he will pray for Mary and Jem, and is sure that Margaret will too. He goes to see Mr Cheshire.

Mary is begging Margaret for forgiveness and kindness despite her erratic behaviour respecting Harry Carson. Margaret reacts well, still she explains how things are against Jem (gun, previous encounter with Harry, his words heard by a policeman, uncertainty as to his whereabouts on Thursday evening before 8 pm). Yet she warns Mary that a lawyer will cost money, as will the fare to Liverpool and going into lodgings there, but at the same time Margaret gives Mary the money she had, is genuinely happy to help and does not want too much ado about this.

Meanwhile, Job has met Mr Cheshire who has given him a reference to a Mr Bridgenorth, Renshaw Street, Liverpool. Mary and Will are expected to meet him there on Monday at 2 pm.

We have moved on from the crime. Mary is now facing a dilemma as if she were a hero in a Greek tragedy.

But two moral issues remain:

- John Barton’s crime

We remember the narrative voice saying in a rather abrupt tone "Let us leave him" in chapter 17. Clearly, the omniscient narrator knew more than we did at that point. Still, we (trained readers of Mrs Gaskell’s novels) guessed what could be about to happen at the end of chapter 16 when someone had drawn the lot of the assassin. I am not saying that it all was predictable, as I was extremely astonished the first time I read this book, but there was definitely an ominous tone. Moreover, it was corroborated by John's strange attitude in chapter 17.

Still, we don’t know John’s whereabouts right now. Is he in Glasgow, or elsewhere, tormented by his conscience? Have the newspapers reached him with those bad news?

- Margaret’s attitude towards Mary.

Mary didn’t tell her about her relationship with Harry Carson. We don’t know how flirtatious it was, but it was considered sinful. Men were not harmed by such flirting, but women were (multiple examples, such as Angel Clare in Tess of the D’Urbervilles and many more in Victorian literature including in Mrs Gaskell’s novels!). Margaret’s cold attitude at first illustrates how people reacted back then. We see that she is removed from her coldness towards Mary by Job’s words ”But this time I’ll pray regular for Jem, and for you. And so will Margaret, I’ll be bound.”.

These very words, and more generally, the whole conversation between Mary and Job, and then between Mary and Margaret, is an instance of a genuine communication, when things are addressed up front and they gradually understand each other.

Mary is sincere, even if she is hiding but one (crucial) element from them. Her terrible secret - which puts a heavy weight upon her shoulders and into her conscience - allows her to defend Jem’s innocence with all her heart and soul, while Job and Margaret feel her sincerity and little by little their hearts are softening.

Thank you all for your comments! There are many questions pending!

I sympathize with you all, I too could hardly stop reading when I first read this novel!

The wad of paper was torn from an old Valentine Mary had received from Jem earlier. She had used it to copy the poem by Samuel Bamford (hence two handwritings on it) and given it to her father who liked that poem (recited by Job Legh when John had just come back from London). The paper the wad was torn from was in possession of John. Finding it in his room was evidence .

Mrs Gaskell has chosen a tiny piece of evidence, a small piece of paper nobody had seen, but Esther, a small piece of paper Esther had first discarded but picked up again and unfolding it only then, discovering Jem's handwriting and partly Mary's name.

We see how tiny a thing may discriminate or incriminate someone. What would have happened if Esther had not found it, or found it and discarded it and not picked it up again?

This very small detail allowed Mrs Gaskell to create something very dramatic and enormous!

We will read chapter 24 on Sunday 19 May!