The Catholic Book Club discussion

Some readers complain that this novel is Catholic propaganda rather than sci-fi. Would they complain that Asimov's "The last question" is atheistic propaganda rather than sci-fi? What do you think?

Personally, I avoid those who complain about Catholic propaganda. Life is too short to waste it with God-hating degenerates.

OTOH, the following is Not catholic Sci fi, per se, but CS Lewis wrote a trilogy with elements of Christianity in all of his fiction. The Narnia books as well as his Out of the Silent Planet space trilogy.

Of course there can be a Catholic sci-fi! My all-time sci-fi favorite is A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller Jr., a great case of Catholic sci-fi, which we read here, in the club. Miller's short stories are also very good.

Other great Catholic sci-fi novels we have read here are Eifelheim by Michael Flynn, and Comet Dust by C.D. Verhoff. And we've had Our Lady of the Artilects by Andrew Gillsmith in our nomination list for some time.

Another good sci-fi Catholic writer is Fred Saberhagen. Finally, I consider myself a Catholic sci-fi writer.

As Phil indicated, C.S. Lewis wrote Christian (non-Catholic) sci-fi. Ray Bradbury is another Christian author that comes to mind. Orson Scott Card's novels also pose important moral dilemmas (the author belongs to the Latter Day Saints movement).

To this list i want to include R.A. Rafferty 😁 "The pastmaster" we did a podcast speaking about science fiction.

Manuel wrote: "Of course there can be a Catholic sci-fi! My all-time sci-fi favorite is A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller Jr., a great case of Catholic sci-fi, which we r..."

Great list! 👍

I had totally forgotten about Canticle.

Can we include "The Lord of World" and "The Dawn of all" by Robert Hugh Benson in this list? 😍

Fonch wrote: "Can we include "The Lord of World" and "The Dawn of all" by Robert Hugh Benson in this list? 😍"

I think we should distinguish apocalyptic fiction and sci-fi. Future science is almost absent from Benson's novels. What he describes is the state of science at the beginning of the 20th century (when he was writing). He thinks that at the beginning of the 21st century news would be transmitted via telegraph, telephone would be restricted to the government, and air travel would be done in zeppelins (he calls them "volors"). The only scientific advance he mentions is a bomb that could destroy a town, but he assumes that it had been invented by a single person.

But if you want to add these books to your list, of course you are free to do it!

Thanks i will do it. I recommend to you "Dawn of All". Can we include Anthony Burgess in the list? although i have a lot of doubts with Burgess.

Fonch wrote: "Thanks i will do it. I recommend to you "Dawn of All". Can we include Anthony Burgess in the list? although i have a lot of doubts with Burgess."

My list includes only those novels I have liked a lot, having given them at least 4 stars. I gave A Clockwork Orange only 3 stars, thus it didn't make it in my list. I explained why in my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Yes we discuss about this. Excesive violence in another causes.

There can definitely be Catholic sci-fi! And I think on the other hand, there can definitely be literature that is flavored by Catholic perspectives, ideals, and philosophies without being intentionally Catholic. There are many stories that I read that have a strong Catholic message, but I don't think it was deliberate. To me, it does not matter--what matters is the message.

Working in a library, I do find there is sometimes an issue with labelling something as "Christian" or "Catholic" fiction, because while it might draw the attention of some readers, it can also turn others off. I'm not sure what the proper solution is here.

Emmy wrote: "Working in a library, I do find there is sometimes an issue with labelling something as "Christian" or "Catholic" fiction, because while it might draw the attention of some readers, it can also turn others off. I'm not sure what the proper solution is here."

At least in sci-fi, I don't think novels should be labeled this way. This may be true also for children books, like the Narnia series. C.S. Lewis said that he had written those books to "pass watching dragons," so that those who are watching to prevent children to know about the Christian message would fail. But if those books are labeled as "Christian books," Lewis's goal is defeated.

Not that it matters now, when everybody knows the Narnia series embodies the Christian message.

This is fascinating! But what exactly is "Catholic sci-fi"? It’s a question that echoes a similar debate from about a century ago on "Christian philosophy." What makes a philosophy "Christian"? Heidegger famously argued that "Christian philosophy" is an oxymoron, like saying "wooden iron"—a contradiction in itself. Personally, I think "Catholic sci-fi" presents less of a conceptual problem than "Christian philosophy," but I’ll set that aside for now.

Drawing from those debates, though, we might say that what makes any creative work "Catholic" could fall into one of several categories: 1) the identity of the author (work created by a Catholic), 2) the subject matter (work that deals with Catholic themes), 3) the context (work set within or depicting a Catholic society), or 4) the cultural background (work influenced by underlying Catholic beliefs). There might be other dimensions too, but these four seem like the most common.

Of these, I’m inclined to think that "Catholic *something*" makes the most sense in the fourth sense—cultural background—but each category adds something interesting.

I’m very curious to see where *Voyage* fits into all of this, but at just 10% into the book, I can’t say yet. (And please, no spoilers!)

It is very interesting what Don Mario proposes to us and I propose a book written by the brother of the former Minister of Defense Federico Trillo-Figueroa written by his brother entitled The World Between Scripts which talks about the relationship between Martin Heidegger and Hannah Arendt it should be taken into account that until the arrival of Rene Descartes René Descartes (this only affects Western Europe, not the Anglo-Saxon world) there is no divorce between philosophy and faith, which were previously a united whole and, so I believe, they must continue to be so, and I refer to the results of what we have seen in recent centuries. Martin Heidegger has been the incarnation that has inspired the most sinister totalitarianisms on the right and left of the last century and, in my opinion, I hope that one day the ominous presence of this person will be overcome.
Everything is an obstacle to being Christianized, that is what he tried C.S. Lewis when he saw the success of this genre among young people. He was a big fan of the novel ]A Voyage to ArcturusDavid Lindsay and wrote his cosmic trilogy to counter the ominous message he advocated Olaf Stapledon . I think that when you write science fiction novels, you adopt the setting and the characteristics of the genre and see it from a Catholic perspective. I think Michael D. O'Brien has done the same as C.S. Lewis has taken advantage of the enormous success of this genre to proclaim his religious beliefs in it and evangelize us through his story.

Don Mario wrote: "what makes any creative work "Catholic" could fall into one of several categories: 1) the identity of the author (work created by a Catholic), 2) the subject matter (work that deals with Catholic themes), 3) the context (work set within or depicting a Catholic society), or 4) the cultural background (work influenced by underlying Catholic beliefs)."

According to 1), anything created by a Catholic person is a Catholic work. I think this criterion is too ample.

On the other hand 3) seems too strict. According to this criterion, the novel we are discussing is not Catholic. It's obvious from the beginning that the human society depicted on Earth is no longer Catholic.

2) could be applied to works by non-Catholic persons dealing with Catholic themes, such as The da Vinci Code. I wouldn't call this book Catholic.

This leaves 4), but I don't feel easy with it.

Perhaps 1) plus 2) would be a better option (a work made by a Catholic person on a Catholic subject).

Fonch wrote: "I think that when you write science fiction novels, you adopt the setting and the characteristics of the genre and see it from a Catholic perspective."

This definition is not bad! I'm assuming that "you" means "a Catholic author". In fact, I think this even better than 1) plus 2) in my previous comment.

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "I think that when you write science fiction novels, you adopt the setting and the characteristics of the genre and see it from a Catholic perspective."

This definition is not bad! I'..."

Thank you for the undeserved praise Professor. If my subconscious betrayed me, I meant the Catholic writers. I suppose behind this was the fantasy of me becoming one of them. To the list of writers already mentioned, we should add Anthony Boucher who not only wrote short science fiction stories, he was also a patron who encouraged others to write them, I think of James BlishWard Moore, among others. Apart from the fact that he liked to write detective novels and was a fan of Sherlock Holmes. A fairly complete person.

Sandra Miesel could also be an addition. Apart from the fact that he met many of the writers we are talking about.

Manuel wrote: "Of course there can be a Catholic sci-fi! My all-time sci-fi favorite is A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller Jr., a great case of Catholic sci-fi, which we read here, in the club. Miller's short stories are also very good.

Other great Catholic sci-fi novels we have read [include] Comet Dust by C.D. Verhoff."

and

"I think we should distinguish apocalyptic fiction and sci-fi."

I agree, though I wouldn't consider Comet Dust to be sci-fi, but apocalyptic fiction.

Don Mario wrote: "...we might say that what makes any creative work "Catholic" could fall into one of several categories: 1) the identity of the author (work created by a Catholic), 2) the subject matter (work that deals with Catholic themes), 3) the context (work set within or depicting a Catholic society), or 4) the cultural background (work influenced by underlying Catholic beliefs)...."

I agree with Manuel that (1) by itself is insufficient. And (2) is only sufficient if those themes are dealt with in a Catholic manner (e.g., a protestant work criticizing veneration of Mary wouldn't count). But I also take the "or" here to be inclusive, not exclusive. So (2), (3) and (4) are not conflicting exclusive definitions of a "Catholic book," but additive alternatives, any one of which, if satisfied, would make a work Catholic.

At least that's pretty much the approach the moderators take when books are proposed for the group to read.

John wrote: "Don Mario wrote: "...we might say that what makes any creative work "Catholic" could fall into one of several categories: 1) the identity of the author (work created by a Catholic), 2) the subject ..."

It is always a pleasure to be able to read and savor the opinions of our moderator and I thank Don Mario for adding that post. Because this enriches the debate a lot. My own opinion is that there are people who talk about Catholicism without being Catholic, and from the outside. I think, for example, of Mrs. Humphry Ward, or Willa Cather. Then there are heterodox Catholics who, taking advantage of their discontent with the hierarchy, write books to criticize and, more or less, promote their heterodox postulates: the weeds have always coexisted with wheat. There are also Catholics who write, but who never signify themselves or show their beliefs in their writings, as Graham Greene would say, who does not fall into this category, they are writers who happen to be Catholics. Then there are cultural Catholics, that is to say that they have lost their faith, but who address in their books with nostalgia the faith that one day I profess, I think of David Lodge and, then there is my favorite group, that of Catholics who already write a fiction in accordance with their beliefs and, in this way, make them known to the world. Then there are people who could be in several of the categories that I have exposed to users and members of the group. I do believe that there can be a science fiction with an orientation or a Catholic perspective. PD. My friend Jaime Blanch Queral also writes Catholic science fiction. Although at the moment his books are not available in English.

There is a very curious case that is that of J.R.R. Tolkien where Catholicism is implicit in his work, it seems that it is not present, but in reality it is. By the way, he is not well known, but J.R.R. Tolkien was also for a while interested in writing his own science fiction saga that would be an alternative to C.S. LewisThe Cosmic Trilogy: Out of the Silent Planet / Perelandra / That Hideous Strength cosmic trilogy called the Paper Notion Book. In fact, C.S. Lewis proposed to him to write one, but he could not carry it out, so he decided to continue with his fantastic saga that he had devised since his earliest youth.

I have more friends that we could add to the list of science fiction writers: Richard Paolinelli, Declan Finn, my friend Ann Margaret Lewis, John C. Wright, the husband of my dear friend L. Jagi Lamplighter, Brian Niemeier, Hans Schantz. All these writers are friends and have a group that is dedicated to this and collaborate on anthologies of science fiction and fantasy.

I don't know if I includedR.A. Lafferty on my list. The famous author of Past Master

To this list should be added Jerry Pournelle and Maurice G. Dantec, a French writer specializing in Cyberpunk Murray Leinster and if I didn't say Michael Flynn it's to beat me up. Although he did not write a novel, the politician Newt Gingrich can be mentioned in this list, he wrote many history fiction books.

Finally, after months, I can share this Youtube video that we recorded for Tío Alberto Balayla on his Youtube channel Sin Vergüenza 2.0 together with Professor Manuel Alfonseca and Jaime Blanch Queral talking about science fiction. The video is in Spanish, but there is an option to put the subtitles in English. There was a very fond reference to the Catholic Book Club group and memories for John Seymour. I promised my Boss 5000 views in two months to see if i won the bet. Subscribe, like it and, leave a comment, thank you :-).
https://youtu.be/sGCCC2r9TiE?si=vExhQ...

To this list we must add my friend Karina Fabian, Kenneth E. Nowelland Michelle Buckman, although the last two authors deal more with dystopian themes. Corinna Turner and Theresa Linden are also specialists in the field of dystopia. I don't know if I did, but if I didn't I also add Gene Wolfe and his saga of the suns to the list

I would also encourage people to check out the Incensepunk movement. Here is the manifesto:

https://www.incensepunk.com/p/incense...

Basically, this is an attempt to portray realistic, gritty, nuanced matters of faith and doubt in sci-fi settings. It is characterized by an absence of overt evangelization.