Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Mrs Touchett and Isabel leave Paris for Italy and stop to visit Ralph in San Remo. Isabel asks Ralph about his father’s bequest to her and whether it’s good for her. Gilbert Osborne’s fifteen year old daughter Pansy returns home to Florence from her convent school in Rome. Madame Merle wants Osborne to meet Isabel, and when he visits Madame Merle at Mrs Touchett’s Palazzo Crescentini, he does. Osborne invites Isabel to come with Madame Merle to have tea in his garden and meet his daughter. Isabel accepts and also meets his sister the Countess Gemini as well as getting a tour of his collections. Madame Merle and the Countess Gemini discuss Madame Merle’s plans. Ralph discusses Gilbert Osborne and Madame Merle with Isabel.

What impressions do you have of Gilbert Osborne’s character and his relationship with his long-time friend, Madame Merle?

Did your impression of Madame Merle change in these chapters?

How does Pansy’s convent upbringing and behavior compare to those of the American women characters like Isabel?

I have a lot of thoughts about Madame Merle and Mr Osborne : they both seem outstanding, but the more we read, the more unseasy I am about them (sorry, is "the more uneasy" even proper English? It seems weird as I type, but I can't think why it would be wrong.)

They remind me of another famous pair of friends in litterature : Mme de Merteuil and Valmont in Dangerous Liaisons. They both seem perfectly fine, but we know they're plotting something, the fall of a young lady. I don't think Madame Merle and Mr Osborne are quite as bad in The Portrait of a Lady, but I still think they seem shady.

Edit : don't you think Madame Merle is behaving strangely towards Pansy? I may be like Isabel and let my thoughts run wild, but what if Madame Merle is Pansy's mother? At the end of chapter 22, she sounds strangely regretful that Pansy doesn't favour her :
“Pansy has really grown pretty,” she presently added.

“So it seemed to me.”

“But she has had enough of the convent.”

“I don’t know,” said Osmond. “I like what they’ve made of her. It’s very charming.”

“That’s not the convent. It’s the child’s nature.”

“It’s the combination, I think. She’s as pure as a pearl.”

“Why doesn’t she come back with my flowers then?” Madame Merle asked. “She’s not in a hurry.”

“We’ll go and get them.”

“She doesn’t like me,” the visitor murmured as she raised her parasol and they passed into the garden.

La_mariane wrote: "I have a lot of thoughts about Madame Merle and Mr Osborne : they both seem outstanding, but the more we read, the more unseasy I am about them (sorry, is "the more uneasy" even proper English? It..."

"more uneasy" is normal English.

Susan wrote: "What impressions do you have of Gilbert Osborne’s character and his relationship with his long-time friend, Madame Merle?."

Countess Gemini is a comical character who sounds ridiculous but sees things clearly and simply, almost like a Shakespearean clown. She says things that others won't because they sound superficial or inappropriate... but they may be the simple truth. Her conversation with Mme Merle in Ch. 25 says a lot about both Merle and Osmond. Among the questions she raises about her brother is "Who is he? What has he ever done?" Great questions, and significant considering that it is his own sister asking them (even if she is a little batty.) Gemini knows something is up between Osmond and Mme Merle, and James uses her to signal this to the reader in a subtle and entertaining way.

Isabel says that she finds Osmond interesting because he's unusual. He fits no type, but he is not eccentric. He has refined, traditional tastes. Clearly he cares deeply for his daughter and wants her to be raised well and in a very controlling environment (but not by himself). He is envious of the Pope for his status and is an admirer of Machiavelli. He seems to spend most of his energy on his watercolors. Is this attractive? Why does Isabel think this makes him "interesting?"

Thomas wrote: "Countess Gemini is a comical character who sounds ridiculous but sees things clearly and simply, almost like a Shakespearean clown. She says things that others won't because they sound superficial or inappropriate...."

Great point! I’m noticing how the characters each give their own take from their point of view on the relationships/events/other characters. The technique can be confusing — who does one believe? — but offers such a rich perspective on the story and characters.

As for Countess Gemini, she’s a hoot! And I’m wondering how she “blotted her copybook” so she’s no longer received by some polite society.

Thomas wrote: "Isabel says that she finds Osmond interesting because he's unusual. He fits no type, but he is not eccentric. He has refined, traditional tastes. Clearly he cares deeply for his daughter and wants her to be raised well and in a very controlling environment (but not by himself). He is envious of the Pope for his status and is an admirer of Machiavelli. He seems to spend most of his energy on his watercolors. Is this attractive? Why does Isabel think this makes him "interesting?".."

That’s the $70,000 question, and we may (or may not) get more of an answer in the next section.

I, like La marianne, feel very uneasy about how the apparent machinations of Madame Merle with Osmond is developing in regard to Isabel. I hate to see anyone so clueless about relationships be manipulated.

Pansy acts younger than her years, and overly submissive. The result of her convent upbringing?

My impression of the Countess is still coming together. She may be the most honest, excepting Isabel, of the lot.

Still on my journey to catch up!