The Debate Club discussion

There are a lot of scholars that consider sects like the church of the latter day saints and jahovah’s witnesses to actually be non christian and really their own entities. Citing the fact that in the US these churches have actively worked against the rights of other protestant faiths

Explain working against the rights? How?

So when the 13 colonies were founded they were founded so each state had it’s own state religion. And the idea of the separation of church and state was so more powerful states could not enforce their religion on less powerful states.

State churches are when state taxes actually goes to the denomination if that state. State churches existed into the 1820’s and even when they were abolished schools were still explicitly christian in their teachings.

It wasnt until much later in the 60’s when the Mormons and the Jehovah’s witnesses brought the issue to the supreme court. Saying that they didnt like Christian teachings being taught to their kids who were not christian. The supreme court agreed and removed religion from schools.

Essentially it was due to these new religions that american schools became “secular.”

Interesting. But is that a right?

I mean yeah for the entire history of the west until that point they were religious at school

True but america was founded to counter thst from the onset

“By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another"

There are many definitions of what a christian is in the bible itself. But in numerous places it js made clear thst only God can tell apaprt the true chrisitian from the pretender.

My question is, who are we to judge who is a true Christian or not? If God is real, wouldn't that be his job?

In the Bible it says so, yes

Well america was set up as being explicitly anti monarchy and anti catholic.

While being protestant and white.

Those were the founding culture of america.

But most founding fathers rejected a lot of chrisitianity, they were deists

Well some were like that in their private journals all of them were outwardly christian. But it was common to be christian in their time

Lol yeah, they of course, but the issue witht eh american constituiom is it doesnt change over time

Well if you are progressive it does lol

And besides a lot of american founding documents mention God explicitly

They all beleived in God. Beleiving in God does not necessarily make you christian automatically. Christian is a specific doctrine you sign up to by having water sprinkled over you

Austin wrote: "So when the 13 colonies were founded they were founded so each state had it’s own state religion. And the idea of the separation of church and state was so more powerful states could not enforce th..."

so actually, I'm Mormon, and we are definitely Christian. <3

Thing is mormons self identify as christian but they arent accepted as chrisitians by a lot of chrsitians

Its kiiinndd of but not really but kinnndd of. Like a trans woman identifying as a woman but not accepted by other woman

MidnightButterfly wrote: "Thing is mormons self identify as christian but they arent accepted as chrisitians by a lot of chrsitians

Its kiiinndd of but not really but kinnndd of. Like a trans woman identifying as a woman b..."
lol yeah mini hit it on the head. The main critism that mormon isn't Christian is because Mormons have their own prophet John smith and have different books and practices to other protestants.

Austin wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Thing is mormons self identify as christian but they arent accepted as chrisitians by a lot of chrsitians

Its kiiinndd of but not really but kinnndd of. Like a trans woma..."

it's Joseph Smith actually lol
The definition of Christian is believing that Jesus is Christ and worshiping him, which we do.

this is literally the definition of Christianity: "the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices"

But so do catholics and all i guess.

Austin wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "Thing is mormons self identify as christian but they arent accepted as chrisitians by a lot of chrsitians

Its kiiinndd of but not really but kinnndd of. Like a trans woma..."

and actually we believe in all the prophets in the bible and stuff, we just also have modern-day prophets

As in, follwing the Pope, probably more than Jesus

MidnightButterfly wrote: "But so do catholics and all i guess."

Catholicism is a branch of Christianity

And i mean its like
Are chrisitians jews? No, because they have different views on jesus (amongst others) so idk i mean the transition between are we in a new religion or an extension of an old one is hard to tell

MidnightButterfly wrote: "And i mean its like
Are chrisitians jews? No, because they have different views on jesus (amongst others) so idk i mean the transition between are we in a new religion or an extension of an old one..."

Christian is believing Jesus is the Christ. since we believe that, it makes us Christian.
Jews don't believe that Jesus was Christ, hence them not being Christian.

Emma(short hiatus-I'll prob be back Saturday) wrote: "this is literally the definition of Christianity: "the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices""

But when you exapnd that, does it remain christian?

So mormon is the sfotware update of chrisitnaity?

Emma(short hiatus-I'll prob be back Saturday) wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "And i mean its like
Are chrisitians jews? No, because they have different views on jesus (amongst others) so idk i mean the transition between are we in a new religion or ..."

so the argument would be what separates you from islam? In islam Christ exists and is worshipped as a prophet. But they have more recent prophets that are more important. Isn't that kinda the same for Mormonism?

I have a small knowledge of mormonism exclusively from American history so I don't 100% know what they believe.

I don't super care one way or the other. Just presenting arguments I've heard

Austin wrote: "Emma(short hiatus-I'll prob be back Saturday) wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "And i mean its like
Are chrisitians jews? No, because they have different views on jesus (amongst others) so idk i me..."

yeah but we don't believe Christ was just a PROPHET. we (as other Christian religions) believe that he was the Son of God, the savior, etc.

this should answer y'all's questions: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/s...

also it's not "Mormonism"
it's The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

MidnightButterfly wrote: "So mormon is the sfotware update of chrisitnaity?"

That's definitely one way to put it lmao. I've been born and raised in the Mormon church, given multiple "sermons" (We call them talks and/or devotionals), and have a lot of evidence from a scholarly standpoint to support that this church is in fact christain.

⋆⭑⚝★ Kipp ★⚝⭑⋆ wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "So mormon is the sfotware update of chrisitnaity?"

That's definitely one way to put it lmao. I've been born and raised in the Mormon church, given multiple "sermons" (We ..."

same!

Emma(short hiatus-I'll prob be back Saturday) wrote: "⋆⭑⚝★ Kipp ★⚝⭑⋆ wrote: "MidnightButterfly wrote: "So mormon is the sfotware update of chrisitnaity?"

That's definitely one way to put it lmao. I've been born and raised in the Mormon church, given ..."

currently writing out a long thing, hold up T^T

lol

(me who screwed my mini-hiatus cause this topic got interesting...)

I'd like to say first of all that I don't plan on staying active in the church when I become an adult, but I will still stand up for it's place in the Christian world <333

First off, I'd like to mention one of the main reasons that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints is in fact a Christain religion. The name. In recent years, the church has been revised by society into "Mormon" or "LDS" or "Mormonism" Etc etc, when in reality, that's taking away the most important aspect of the religion, the belief in Jesus Christ, our savior. Members of the church are encouraged to refer to the church by its full name, because the keystone of the religion is the belief that Jesus Christ is our savior, and that by following his doctrine, we can be with him again.

Secondly, members of the church do in fact believe in the Bible. (I saw a short about this, but I can't remember where it was. When I find it, I'll post it here) They don't believe that the Book of Mormon is a replacement or abridgement of the Bible, simply another testament of the works and glory of Jesus Christ. It's even in the name. "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ".

Third(ly?), the argument that there can't be a modern prophet doesn't exactly make sense to me, so this one is more of a personal opinion. Wouldn't God (also known as Heavenly Father in the church and elsewhere) want to continue to communicate with us, even after his son ascended back to heaven? I don;t think there's very much evidence to prove that there shouldn't be a true and living prophet on Earth today, and if there is any, I'd love to debate it ^^

Fourth, covenants and redemption. If God has perfect mercy, how can their not be a way to redeem yourself in the next life? If you never had the chance to be baptized, if you were in a 3rd world country and never even knew of the existence of God, and passed before you had that chance, why should you be condemned to hell if it wasn't even your choice? I see a lot of people hating on the church's ordinances for the dead, but I find it comforting. Idk where I was going with that one honestly lmao.

I'm not done, but if I keep typing, I'm going to run out of characters :D

<33

Sorry that was a lot :D
Honestly, not to be weird or anything, but it feels strange to be standing up for a religion that has caused me personal pain (less the religion, more some of the culture in the people), but still XD

⋆⭑⚝★ Kipp ★⚝⭑⋆ wrote: "Sorry that was a lot :D
Honestly, not to be weird or anything, but it feels strange to be standing up for a religion that has caused me personal pain (less the religion, more some of the culture in..."

loll (I'm here if u want to talk btw<3)

Emma(short hiatus-I'll prob be back Saturday) wrote: "⋆⭑⚝★ Kipp ★⚝⭑⋆ wrote: "Sorry that was a lot :D
Honestly, not to be weird or anything, but it feels strange to be standing up for a religion that has caused me personal pain (less the religion, more..."

(I'm ok, its not stuff id like to talk about <3 (view spoiler)[ both because its triggering for me and because its potentially triggering for others <333 (hide spoiler)]

totally fine<3

Based on the definition of a Christian, it is: One who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But in the Bible it is said only God can tell apart a true Christian from a pretender.

So IG we'll see when we go to the big man upstairs, no?

Damon (Semi-hiatus) wrote: "Based on the definition of a Christian, it is: One who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But in the Bible it is said only God can tell apart a true Christian from a pretender.

So..."

facts. But btw I'm not pretending anything lol

If we're doing a literal translation, Christians are people who believe in Jesus Christ.

Messianic Jews are Christian Jews. Protestants are Christians. Mormons are Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian. Catholics are Christian. Baptists are Christians. So on and so forth

I've never been Baptized.... --> /// <--
idk if I 100% want to or not....but yeah

Нимона (Nimona) ⚠︎︎♡Freaky Girl♡⚠︎︎ wrote: "I've never been Baptized.... --> /// <--
idk if I 100% want to or not....but yeah"

I was baptized Catholic as a baby

I think the thing is still what classifies as christian? As in, with the abrahmic faiths it is kind of like so there is Moses who is "replaced" in a way by Jesus (this is not accepted by the Jews, so they have their old religion, and then this is replaced by a new religion Christianity). And then you have Jesus and Mohammad comes into the picture and rejected by Christians as the "replacement" for Jesus, but accepted by Muslims, who have a new religion.
Then you have the LDS who also have a new prophet who is more recent than Jesus, they still beleive in Jesus, just that there is now a new, "upgraded" prophet.

So what is the line between different Abrhamic religions? It seems to be the descending/appearance of a new prophet