Historical Fictionistas discussion

This is the discussion thread for our April 2025 Group Read, Babel by R.F. Kuang.

Please make sure you are marking any/all spoilers when discussing the book.

Just started this last evening, am on page 50. Have not read anything by this author before and, while I love the premise I'm not keen on the literal writing style that the prose so resembles.

Having attended the UC-Davis back in the 1970s, and then attended the Defense Language Institute (DLI) in Monterey, CA, I can identify with the stress of extraordinary demands made on students when excellence is an expectation, along with opposing an unpopular war and working on organizing a student-strike for peace. At time, I shudder as long-dormant memories revive and float on an ocean of consciousness. The good part is after it is over, the excellence is retained through life, providing it is still an important measure for the individual. As noted, lots of memories and no desire to go back, oh, no. Interesting read, 86 percent through the book.
I am looking forward to an engaging discussion ;)

Looking back on my introductory comment, we are here to discuss the book, Babel, and having set my personal story into the record, I shall not refer back to it, preferring to discuss my experience as a reader.
In regards to reading like a reader, I am curious about how people feel about the narrative voices in “Babel.” Who finds it helpful? Who has problems relating to it? Any other feelings or reactions?

I read this a few years ago and really enjoyed it.

I just started the book today, listening to the audio. I’m intrigued already.

IMHO, the author, R.F. Kuang, employed “curiosity” as a motivating factor, drawing readers into the narrative. While, as often the case during the initial half of a book, a novel can drag along. In Babel, for me at least, curiosity definitely moved me forward. After the fifty-percent mark is reached, the momentum seemed to pick up. I am curious if others had or might have a similar experience as readers?for

Babel was a great read for me. A lyrical, poignant and inspiring story. The plot was intelligent yet offered both drama and action. The characters were complex, flawed but heroic. The challenges each faced were realistic and relatable.

I loved the themes of Power in Language (for good or evil), Loyalty and Sacrifice. The Tower of Babel was more than a symbol; it was itself a character in the story.

I also enjoyed the mystical aspects of this alternative 19th century Oxford. Instead of the usual industrial Steampunk setting, R.F. Kuang gave us a magical Silverwork world.

Ramey quote: ‘That’s just what translation is, I think. That’s all speaking is. Listening to the other and trying to see past your own biases to glimpse what they’re trying to say. Showing yourself to the world, and hoping someone else understands.’ (Chapter Thirty-Three)

Michael Dean wrote: "curiosity definitely moved me forward. After the fifty-percent mark is reached, the momentum seemed to pick up. I am curious if others had or might have a similar experience as readers?"
I thought the story was slower paced at first as we got to know the main characters. But we learned more about Babel and its leadership through the eyes of these characters. And I felt this growing awareness/dissonance was important to develop the plot.

Alas, I had to dnf, for reasons given here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Abandoned this about a 1/3 of the way through. I found it too didactic and it was hard to care about what happened to any of the characters.

Valerie Book Valkyrie wrote: "Alas, I had to dnf, for reasons given here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."

Great review, Valerie.

I wanted to like this book much more than I did. I loved the ideas and the worldbuilding. But it was so preachy, it undermined its own points. Yes, we get it, the British Empire was evil and did horrible things in its colonies, you don't have to keep reminding us every few pages. You certainly don't have to get your 19th-century scholars speaking like 21st-century activists.

This book is very caught up in academics and linguistics. Written for a niche audience, it seems to failed to convey passion to many readers who seek entertainment when reading.

Sans spoilers, it is helpful if folks can post general comments about what each of usss find appealing, well constructed, or not so with Babel.

For instance, I found the development and use of setting excellent and well executed, particularly after reading the introductory notes. Characters were strong and fit the era well, which may explain part of their lack of appeal to some readers.

The 1830s through the 1850s can be difficult to read about. However, the development of colonialism during the last few decades of the “Age of Revolution” was powerful and yes, disturbing to our modern sensitivities. My wife, Lynn, came away deeply affected by the emotional impact and effects on colonial peoples and the relatively shallow. impact on mmost English people. That increased internal stress as we read their stories.

All in all, I came away with a deeper sense of the period, which is an important goal of historical fiction.

I've always enjoyed etymology, learning about word origins and how their connotations have changed through the years. So that aspect of the book was fun for me.

On a more serious note: the rise of the Tower and its ultimate fate is more than a historical/dystopian story. It's a reminder that the greedy and powerful always attempt to enslave the unwary. Thousands of books have been written on this subject and the message is still relevant today. Besides Babel, for example, I've just recently read It Can't Happen Here, 1984, and Lost Ark Dreaming--which also includes towers!

Michael Dean wrote: "Sans spoilers, it is helpful if folks can post general comments about what each of us find appealing, well constructed, or not so with Babel."

I liked the setting and the worldbuilding. The magical system was original and interesting. Oxford and the Tower of Babel were very well described and easy for me to envision. The early scenes in Canton were also described and made it easy to empathise with the younger Robin.

I felt the characters were the weakest part. To me, they rarely felt like real people of their time, but were more like mouthpieces for the author's views. At one point, Ramy says the British have made India (his home country) into a "narco military state", and that took me out of the narrative because it's not how a 19th century person would have expressed themselves (certainly many Indians would have had strong anti-British views, but they would have expressed those views using their own words and not the language of 21st-century academics).

I'm sympathetic to the author's message (the 19th century British Empire was pretty evil and there should be more fiction that shows this), but I wish she'd been less preachy about it.

I’m about 1/2 way through the book. Listening on audio. I like it. I like the translation definitions and background on words and their meanings. I just recently read “The Dictionary of Lost Words” which was about the writing of the Oxford English Dictionary in the late 1800’s to early 1900’s. I am enjoying the theme of language as a tool and a way to belong and that a lot can be lost in translation.

I notice criticisms regarding historical usage. There are two readily available reference available to assist readers and writers. Try Chambers Dictionary of English Etymology, an updated version of the classic Barnhart Concise Dictionary of English Etymology; or, either The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, or the more portable edition, The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology. One or both of these should be available at your local library. Try the reference section. The SCA College of Arms refers to these in addition to entries in the Oxford English Dictionary, OED. There is also an entry in Wikipedia about an Online Etymology Dictionary; however, I am not yet familiar with that reference.

I also recommend folks look up “The Age of Revolution” for the period launched by the American, Haitian, and French Revolutions, particularly for the period beginning. With the French Revolution through 1848, the so-called “Year of Revolutions,” for movements, rhetoric, and period descriptions by activists against economic, moral, and colonial oppression by landed and moneyed interests. These should assist readers to assess the narrative and language used by writers about this period, including with our current historical fantasy, Babel. I hope this helps.

As suggested, words like narcotics merit scrutiny for correct inclusion in historical novels and short stories, a very valid point. Much of our rhetoric today is founded in rhetoric from the 1830s through the 1860s. I am generally satisfied with the rhetoric used in this historical fantasy as it attempts to convey the effects of colonialism on the world, both inside and beyond Europe.

This book was a great read. I adored the entymology and the blur of the real with fantasy. There was a point towards the end where I felt the book was too didactic and the plot a little more of the same, but those two flaws are far outweighed by the genius of the conception and execution of this novel. Also, the end surprised me, which is always lovely for me. Despite my criticisms of the point being driven home a little too hard (Readers are smart and can reach our own conclusions!), the author did a brilliant job weaving together so many elements.

Babel was my second read by this author. The first was Yellowface, which is psychological suspense. I applaud her handling of two different genres so adeptly.

Jennifer wrote: "I’m about 1/2 way through the book. Listening on audio. I like it. I like the translation definitions and background on words and their meanings. I just recently read “The Dictionary of Lost Words”..."

Thanks for recommending "Dictionary of Lost Words"- it was on my TBR and I forgot about it. I liked the etymology and musings on translation in Babel, so I think that will be a good book to follow reading this one!

Michael Dean wrote: "As suggested, words like narcotics merit scrutiny for correct inclusion in historical novels and short stories..."

It wasn't so much the word "narcotics" as the specific phrase "narco military state" used in dialogue. It sounded like it was taken from a modern academic essay. Even in a book set in modern times, that dialogue would sound artificial unless the character was steeped in academic post-colonial writing. And this was just one example of such dialogue in the novel.

It was a little annoying because the author often made a good point using concrete examples and then (IMHO) undermined it using academic jargon. For example, immediately before the "narco military state" remark, Robin and Remy had talked about about how the British were forcing the Indians to grow drugs and Chinese to consume them. I liked how the personal lives of the characters and the bigger political picture were intertwined. And then the 21st-century academic language came in like chalk on a blackboard.

I did like the book and felt it told an important story. I just wish the author had more trust in her readers and her own story.

Kuang created an immersive world. This book rates highly for me because I don't know much about British Imperial history of this era (I usually read pre-19th-century) and it made me want to learn more. I enjoy learning etymologies and appreciated the didactic footnotes.

It was a little repetitive, but I continually jotted down quotes that were different musings on the same topics. Two quotes that stood out:

"If the train is speeding past everyone else, we might as well be riding it." -Letty

"All that suffering, Victoire. And the whole time, I was drinking champagne." -Robin

Thanks so much to the reader who nominated Babel! The etymology was fascinating. The characters were complex and sympathetic. I thought the author not only captured the atmosphere of the epoch, but also depicted the dilemmas faced by the main characters as relevant to our problems at present. When an authoritarian regime is in power it is very difficult to achieve social and political reform by non-violent means. People who want reform and social justice face the difficult ethical choice of cooperating with those in power (while closing their eyes to horrendous deeds that inflict suffering and death on masses of people) or joining revolts that may or may not topple an evil regime (and may cause suffering for innocent bystanders). In a democratic system it is feasible to advocate and achieve reform without violence, but we are witnessing a dangerous shift toward authoritarian regimes. I just pray that my grandchildren don’t face the difficult choices of Robin, Ramy, Victoire and Letty!

During the period prior to “The Age of Revolution,” and the failure of rebellions in various European countries in 1848, follow3ed by the clollapse of the Paris Commune after the devastating attack on Paris more than a decade later, the practices and assessment of nonviolent conflict became a matter of record. Results, unknown in this earlier period, in Babble, is violent conflict is 20-25-percent effective, whereas NVC is fifty-percent effective. Still, in Babel, this. Is the time when the full range of tactics were employed. The Luddite’s were example of the use of this full range of tactics. This did influence Karl Marx and his daughter in the age following this one, and their rhetoric continues to inform contemporary arguments. I am trying to add and encourage iscussion, and to tie this into our reviews of Babel.

On the theme of reform, here are a few quotes I highlighted from Babel:

He [Robin] discovered that in Parliament, in town halls, and on the streets, reformers of every stripe were fighting for the soul of London, while a conservative, landed ruling class fought back against attempts at change at every turn. (Chapter 2)

The cobblestones beneath their feet seemed like roads leading into and out of different centuries. This could be the Oxford of the Reformation, or the Oxford of the Middle Ages. They moved within a timeless space, shared by the ghosts of scholars past. (Chapter 3)

They had chosen the unlikeliest of places for a revolution. Oxford was not the centre of activity, it was a refuge, decades behind the rest of England in every realm but the academic. … But though Oxford was not the seat of power, it produced the occupants thereof. Its alumni ran the Empire. (Chapter 26)

She [Victoire] learned revolution is, in fact, always unimaginable. It shatters the world you know. The future is unwritten, brimming with potential. (Epilogue)

Fiona wrote: "Valerie Book Valkyrie wrote: "Alas, I had to dnf, for reasons given here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."

Great review, Valerie.

I wanted to like this book much more than I did...."
Thanks Fiona! I whole heartedly agreee with you!

Trying not to read comments. Hopefully getting back to this in the coming week. No concussion this time so I should be good to go!

First, a heartfelt thanks for all the discussion. It helps me to better understand how other readers perceive and take in a novel. I am hugely grateful.
Now, a few basics regarding the standard format for a modern novel: Note, each of these parameters are flexible with the usual variation of + or - 5% of the whole.
Beginning of the book, 20%, introduces the story the main characters and enough of the supporting characters, along with initial situation, to set the scene for the story.
Middle: developed the broad range of characters, setting, and situation. all this is still preliminary until the 50% mark is reached. At 50% the emphasis shifts to fully developing the narrative. Many writers do not energize their narrative until reaching this point. So, reading beyond 50% can be important to get into a story.
Next phase of the “middle” of the book is building to the climax. This process usually begins at 70%, with the climax taking place at about 90%, although this may vary from 85% to 97%!
End of the book: 90%. This may include an anticlimax or resolution after the climax.
I hope this helps readers to move through these stories.
this month, April, 2025, we read Babel. The above information. May explain some reader frustration with how this novel and others, such as “Stranger in a Strange Lan,” may drag through the first quarter or even half of a novel, or delay introducing important elements into the narrative. A good novelist and critic who also teaches both reading and writing is Jane Smiley. 13 ways of looking at a novel is quite helpful, IMHO, particularly with stories such as this month’s offering.

I gave Babel 4 stars, but maybe it should have been 3. I read for entertainment & usually obtain some educational pluses along the way when reading historical fiction. I don't get deep into book reviews as brilliantly as some, but partly due to 2 strokes. So I keep it simple. Babel was well written, but I had a tough time with it. I found myself needing to look for historical information often, which took away from the story, so I felt like I was reading in pieces. I didn't relate to any of the characters at all & I was disappointed with the ending. I just couldn't rationalize the decisions of those who stayed. Sad.