The Debate Club discussion

Thanks for the suggestion, Liz (save the sharks)!

Honestly this was kinda difficult but I am going to say no. There are just too many creeps out there and i feel like it just puts too many people at risk. I do think gender neutral bathrooms need to be more available though

No

i would say no. it would make some people uncomfortable. especially women. especially if the person isnt fully trans yet. one time in school a guy who acted trans but wasn't actually transitioned yet came into the bathroom and it did make me uncomfortable.

thank you @barnette for the topic!

yes, i think trans people should be allowed to use their preferred bathroom

the most used argument against this is probably the logic of "creeps pretending to be trans" or my personal favorite which is that all trans people are just creeps in disguise trying to get into the other genders bathroom. me personally, i think this is ridiculous reasoning. Do you really think that some creep would go through all the effort of changing their appearance, and sometimes going so far as to take hormones or get surgery just to go into the opposite bathroom?

also, like @ray said, do you really think that cheap little toilet door sign with a stick man/woman on it is going to stop someone with bad intentions from just walking right in? it's also the same idea with locker rooms. if there is some guy trying to get into a girls locker room (or vice versa) with bad intentions, they would just walk right in.

most trans people are just trying to get in and out. they aren't lingering outside your door or whatever you think they are doing.

another thing is, what if someone is fully transitioned, for example someone who is mtf, and they have been taking hormones, dressing like a woman, etc and look almost fully like a biological woman. but, she would still have to use the mens room, because she was born male. wouldn't that cause more problems than just letting her use the women's room? (same is true for opposite, ftm)

i think it is also important to address the small number of people who have pretended to be trans to get into a bathroom or are actually trans and are just creeps. but, just because there are some creepy people in a demographic doesn't mean everyone is like that. i feel like this would be the same idea as banning people from wearing red while walking on the sidewalk, because sometimes people get kidnapped by people wearing red walking on sidewalks.

l i z [save the sharks❗] ˖𓍢ִִ໋🌊🦈˚˖𓍢ִ✧˚. wrote: "thank you @barnette for the topic!

yes, i think trans people should be allowed to use their preferred bathroom

the most used argument against this is probably the logic of "creeps pretending to b..."

Agreed!!

sophia_thesecond (depressing music's version) wrote: "i would say no. it would make some people uncomfortable. especially women. especially if the person isnt fully trans yet. one time in school a guy who acted trans but wasn't actually transitioned y..."

But should trans people be restricted from using the bathrooms they're most comfortable in because a few other people don't like them there? (Sorry if this is rude)

Barnette wrote: "sophia_thesecond (depressing music's version) wrote: "i would say no. it would make some people uncomfortable. especially women. especially if the person isnt fully trans yet. one time in school a ..."

this.

i agree with liz banning trans people won't stop creeps at all. but i would say it really depends on where you are, because some people are totally fine with it, like me, but others would definitely be very uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a trans person. so if the bathroom is in a place where there a lot of uncomfortable people, then it shouldn't be allowed, because you can't really force someone to be okay with it. but if the people there are chill with it, then of course it should be allowed.

the law should keep in mind, though, that people's opinions change, so they should be open to the idea of adapting their policies. but preventing trans people from accessing their bathroom of choice shouldn't mean we should force them to use the bathroom of the opposite sex-- simply have a one-stall gender-neutral bathroom and it's fine. so overall, my answer is that it depends.

Barnette wrote: "sophia_thesecond (depressing music's version) wrote: "i would say no. it would make some people uncomfortable. especially women. especially if the person isnt fully trans yet. one time in school a ..."

I totally understand what you are saying, so I think there just needs to be more gender neutral bathrooms. because either way you go someone will be unhappy and uncomfortable and at that point you're just putting one person over the other.

Listen, a creep is gonna be a creep. Someone is NOT going to dress as a girl, take E, and live their life as a girl JUST to be a pervert, and if they do?? That is like the SMALLEST percentage of people ever.

I just wanna piss. Like genuinely, I have fainted in public spaces because I used to deprive myself of water when I was out in public for multiple hours because I didn't wanna use the restroom. I have had multiple cis women tell me they would feel creeped out if I; a transgender man was in the bathroom with them. And multiple cis men say that they'd rather a trans man in the bathroom with them than a transgender woman.

When I use the bathroom in the mens bathroom, I do the following:

- Look for the bathroom with the lowest foot traffic
- Pray that no one is in there
- Go into a stall
- Do my buisness
- Wash my hands
- And leave

I've been yelled at in the girls bathroom, and physically assaulted outside of a boys bathroom, so pray tell, where do you want me to go to do one of the arguably most human functions there are?

I just want to use the bathroom, and I am tired of making myself uncomfortable, when literally everyone I know IRL has said to me "I didn't know you were trans until you told me" or "You pass so well, I couldn't tell". People can't tell I'm transgender, unless I tell them. I would DEFINITELY make women uncomfortable in the women's restroom, so I will go in the men's bathroom.

And if that offends you? That a fourteen year old needs to use the bathroom of his gender? Then that's on you, because honestly? People being so obsessed with what's in my pants and what's under my t-shirt is so perverted it makes me sick.

l i z [save the sharks❗] ˖𓍢ִִ໋🌊🦈˚˖𓍢ִ✧˚. wrote: "thank you @barnette for the topic!

yes, i think trans people should be allowed to use their preferred bathroom

the most used argument against this is probably the logic of "creeps pretending to b..."

I agree with this, great analogy, mate

Sai :) wrote: "i agree with liz banning trans people won't stop creeps at all. but i would say it really depends on where you are, because some people are totally fine with it, like me, but others would definitel..."

Honestly, for me, I wait till everyone is out of the bathroom before I go out of the stall to wash my hands. I know I pass, I know I look like a cis guy, like I said before: Everyone I have met after late 2023 have all stated that they wouldn't know I'm trans unless I told them. But I don't want to make others around me uncomfortable, even though, that is my reality. I am uncomfortable every day of my life, but I wouldn't wish that on ANYONE, so I will make sure I don't make others uncomfortable. I understand WHY someone would be uncomfortable, but when you think of a transgender person, you probably think of someone who looks like a "freak" per se, no? The majority of trans folk don't "look" trans. There is NO look to being trans, and more often than not? You won't even know we're transgender. We just want to live as normal people. Like people have stated before:

There are creeps, I acknowledge that. But there will be creeps regardless if they're trans or not. A plastic sign will NOT stop someone with nefarious intentions from walking into the (wo)men's bathroom.

I'd actually argue that if you'd see transgender men like Jammi Dodger for example, you would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable if he was in the women's bathroom with you.

I do think though, that you should be passing to a certain extent TO use the bathroom that aligns with your gender. That might just be me though lol

BUT, I do agree with the gender neutral bathroom thing:

Honestly, I believe that like single cell gender-neutral bathrooms with be so much more efficient:

- Better for gender diverse students
- Less groups of people in the bathrooms just taking up space
- Less smoking in bathrooms
- Less skipping in the bathrooms

Like genuinely, I believe that something like that could really benefit society as a whole

⋆.ೃ࿔; P I E R C E ˖*:･༄ {Free Pali} wrote: "I agree with this, great analogy, mate"

ayy thank youu

l i z [save the sharks❗] ˖𓍢ִִ໋🌊🦈˚˖𓍢ִ✧˚. wrote: "⋆.ೃ࿔; P I E R C E ˖*:･༄ {Free Pali} wrote: "I agree with this, great analogy, mate"

ayy thank youu"

Ofc!

Well said, Pierce, thank you for sharing your experience. I'm so sorry for what you've been through.

@Barnette Nah it's chill, I'm really funny now, a small price to pay 💀

I agree, but only if they're transitioned to a point. This is touchy subject, not be of 'creeps' but because it can make people uncomfortable, including the trans person themselves.
If you are a trans man whos fully changed taking estrogen and such that would be more uncomfortable if you go into a womens' bathroom. Mens' bathrooms typically have a stall or two so they literally wouldn't even notice.

However, if you are genderfluid or in the beginning stages of your transition, i would go into the bathroom your birth gender is.

@Tessie Btw trans men who are medically transition will use Testosterone and not Estrogen!!

⋆.ೃ࿔; P I E R C E ˖*:･༄ {Free Pali} wrote: " @Tessie Btw trans men who are medically transition will use Testosterone and not Estrogen!!"

I think she meant to say MTF

OHH, that's my bad 😭

⋆.ೃ࿔; P I E R C E ˖*:･༄ {Free Pali} wrote: "OHH, that's my bad 😭"

All good lol, and I'm not sure, I just think that's what she meant

⋆.ೃ࿔; P I E R C E ˖*:･༄ {Free Pali} wrote: " @Tessie Btw trans men who are medically transition will use Testosterone and not Estrogen!!"

Ohhh yeah i'm sorry i mix them up a lot, thank you

idrc tbh cause I'm never in public bathrooms (homeschooled <3) but I agree with @Tessie

as a trans individual-
I'm gonna have to say no
not for the idea of being a creep but because I worry about the safety of the trans individual
Like, my school isn't exactly a safe place and I think if a trans kid were to use their correct bathroom they honestly could get beaten within an inch of their life.
HOWEVER if all of society were kind and lovely and darling yes, use what you feel comfortable with

okayokay guys hear me out.
INTERSEX BATHROOMS!! BAM
Problem solved. ;)

.⋆｡˚☾ Greenkin ☽˚｡⋆. wrote: "okayokay guys hear me out.
INTERSEX BATHROOMS!! BAM
Problem solved. ;)"

Yass

I do not understand why trans people need to go into the bathroom of the opposite sex when their bodies don't have the same...kinda body to urinate the same way.

You are using the bathroom to do your business it has everything to do with your excretion organs and none to do with your gender

I think it's less about the actual act you're going there to do and more about the constraints. This is the 'Women's bathroom' and even if you don't feel like a woman, you're expected to use it. It's forcing you into a role you don't want. It's classifying you as a 'woman' for going in there.

As a trans person myself, I don't really use the public bathrooms because I've always gotten weird stares, no matter which I go in. But as long as a someone feels comfortable enough to use their preferred bathroom, sure

I agree. Trans people should ba allowed to use their preferred bathrooms.
I have a question though.
What about trans people who don't pass?
Or trans people who aren't allowed to use their preferred bathroom?
Genuine question here, I'm curious.

most trans people who don't pass know it, so they barely use the public bathroom at all
the ones who aren't allowed just use the bathroom of their assigned gender. for us, bathrooms don't really matter, we just go there do piss, what matters is how safe we are in society, and how we are perceived in our every day life

⋆⭑⚝★ Kipp ★⚝⭑⋆ wrote: "I agree. Trans people should ba allowed to use their preferred bathrooms.
I have a question though.
What about trans people who don't pass?
Or trans people who aren't allowed to use their prefer..."

Oh hi, Kipp!! I haven't seen you in forever, man 😭

Anyway, I think for trans people who don't pass (Speaking from experience) we'd just use the one of our AGAB. As far as not being allowed to, I'd need to know if it was from like the state, school, or parents enforcing that rule?

⋆.ೃ࿔; P I E R C E ˖*:･༄ {Free Pali} wrote: "⋆⭑⚝★ Kipp ★⚝⭑⋆ wrote: "I agree. Trans people should ba allowed to use their preferred bathrooms.
I have a question though.
What about trans people who don't pass?
Or trans people who aren't allo..."

FR THOUGH

Any of the above. Both my school and parents don't allow it, but I don't know enough about utahs laws to say if its illegal or not [though knowing utah it probably is]

Max wrote: "most trans people who don't pass know it, so they barely use the public bathroom at all
the ones who aren't allowed just use the bathroom of their assigned gender. for us, bathrooms don't really ma..."

given that I don't pass remotely - yeah
I have a vendetta against public bathrooms and wont use one unless I'm literally going to drop dead out of need
and even then i'll go out of my way to ask my teacher to use the teachers bathroom or I'll just hope and pray the woman's is completely empty because I don't like the idea of others labeling me as a girl when I'm not

(I did not backread)

im very open-minded and my mind changes a lot but from my point of view i dont think so if there not yet fully transitioned.
i respect trans people so this is 100% not a hate comment just as a female it would make me (And i assume lots others) uncomfortable bcs creeps could just say there trans and could walk in without a problem. ofc not letting trans people used there preferred bathroom is not going to stop creeps but lots of people can lie. this is a very difficult topic bcs there are lots of factors at play but i think if you are not fully trans you shouldn't be aloud to. this is just what i think right now

⋆⭑⚝★ Kipp ★⚝⭑⋆ wrote: "⋆.ೃ࿔; P I E R C E ˖*:･༄ {Free Pali} wrote: "⋆⭑⚝★ Kipp ★⚝⭑⋆ wrote: "I agree. Trans people should ba allowed to use their preferred bathrooms.
I have a question though.
What about trans people who ..."

Those dang Mormons (In the most affectionate way)

But if the state doesn't allow it, I'd say not to do it, ESPICALLY if you don't pass. If you do pass, do it. As a protest of some sorts? You don't want a boy in the girl's restroom? Then make it legal for me to be in the boys restroom. As for parents, I'd honestly just use the bathroom your feel most comfortable in if you pass

(replying to the general topic question :p)

yes, transgender people should be allowed to use their preferred bathrooms. everyone deserves to feel safe, respected, and comfortable when using public facilities. forcing someone to use a bathroom that doesn't align with their gender identity can lead to embarrassment, discrimination, and even danger. allowing people to use the bathroom that matches who they are isn't just about comfort—it's about basic human dignity and rights. inclusive policies help create a more understanding and respectful society for everyone.

✦Artemis✦ wrote: "(I did not backread)

im very open-minded and my mind changes a lot but from my point of view i dont think so if there not yet fully transitioned.
i respect trans people so this is 100% not a hate..."

Based, but like, medically transitioned or socially transitioned? Because I'm socially transitioned, and because I'm a 14 year old boy, I look like one (lol), so pass considerably well

⋆.ೃ࿔; P I E R C E ˖*:･༄ {Free Pali} wrote: "✦Artemis✦ wrote: "(I did not backread)

im very open-minded and my mind changes a lot but from my point of view i dont think so if there not yet fully transitioned.
i respect trans people so this ..."

i think both would help a lot. especially if your medically transitioned and not socially transitioned would be hard bcs not everyone will know your trans and might get uncomfortable or worried not from you or other trans people just from experiences and so i just feel everyone would be more comfortable if you were both. does that make since lol??

@Artemis For sure, I feel ya. I definitely PLAN to medically transition when I am of age, but I think since I look like every other quirked up white boy with a little bit of swag my age, I know I pass enough to not be clocked as transgender unless I tell them lol

⋆.ೃ࿔; P I E R C E ˖*:･༄ {Free Pali} wrote: " @Artemis For sure, I feel ya. I definitely PLAN to medically transition when I am of age, but I think since I look like every other quirked up white boy with a little bit of swag my age, I know I..."

now that i think about it if you look like a male and prefer being a male then i think you can go into men's restrooms bcs everyone can clearly see you are a male even if you have a vagina instead or testicals. lol now i think about it more i think as long as you are socially transitioned it's ok.

@Artemis Yeah, like I feel it's more so on how you look socially, because lowk. If someone's checking what's in my pants so I can use the bathroom, I am NEVER stepping outside BAHAHAHA

@Kelly Take a look at my profile picture. Would you want me in the same bathroom as you? Me, who wears all mens clothes, my hair is actually shorter than it was in that photo now, has a deep enough voice to pass as a guy, works out, and unless I told someone would have no clue that I'm transgender?

Would you want me in the bathroom with you? Your sister? Your mom? I'm going to guess the answer is no. Because to put it simply: I am a man, I belong in the men's restroom.

I'm sorry ma'am that is a bit offensive. What do you mean they shouldn't even be transgender.
Also, when a person is fully transitioned, say they're a man who's been taking estrogen for years and is now a woman, has womanly body parts, etc., wouldn't that be MORE uncomfortable for them to go into a man's bathroom? Wouldn't it be awkward for this trans woman to be putting her makeup on in the mens bathroom??
And why would it be uncomfortable if they looked their transitioned gender, because you aren't watching them use the bathroom, they are literally in a stall!

@kelly
what do you mean they shouldn't be transgender?? you can't control that 😭
it's like someone would tell you that you shouldn't be a girl anymore. it's wrong to stick our noses into people's lives like that
plus, why do we care so much about what's in people's pants? can we check before they enter the bathroom to be sure they aren't trans? no, we can't, so as long as they pass, you might never know they were born as the opposite gender

I honestly think it is more a question of well. How do we know? How can we enforce who goes into what bathroom? If the person passes as male or female, how can we tell without strip searching everyone and having guards outside of bathrooms. It puts eveeyone under suspicion if you are a bio female for example but look a bit masc

Can't answer much for other places, but where I live, many places don't have gendered toilets. They are just toilets, and the handful of times we have gendered restrooms, it's because the men's restroom got urinals. But it's not uncommon to even sometimes sneak into the toilet, because it's full. But 8 times out of 10 people use a toilet for one or two things, and honestly I'm almost more concerned with how many naked butts have touched the seat, rather then if a man walk into a womens toilet or not

I always put toilet paper on the seat, i have never touched a bare public toilet seat