Victorians! discussion

So this week, the plot thickens! We see Walter lurking in the graveyard at the dead of night, and his sleuthing pays off when the mysterious woman in white appears at Mrs. Fairlie's grave. Her reaction to his mention of Sir Percival Glyde's name confirms all of his worst fears. After a piteous, emotional last dinner together, Walter is forced to take his leave of his beloved Laura, leaving her to her fate as the fiancée of a possibly evil baronet. If we have any lingering doubts about Sir Percival, they are laid to rest when Laura's dog, Nina, refuses to have anything to do with him. Dogs always know, don't they?

After Walter leaves Limmeridge House, Mr. Gilmore, the family solicitor, takes up the narrative. He is unaware of why the two sisters seem so depressed, and wonders at Laura's avoidance of Sir Percival. We finally meet Sir Percival and discover that he is older and less attractive than one might have hoped, for Laura's sake. Other than that, he seems to be a respectable match. We learn that his arrival in the neighborhood is the signal for Anne Catherick to depart, and Sir Percival seems most anxious to find and help the poor dear return to a place where she can be properly treated. What a prince of a fellow! Her mother is apparently supportive of his efforts. We know this because Sir Percival almost forces Marian to write to the woman to verify it.

Sir Percival is something of an enigma at this point. He seems to have villain vibes based on Anne Catherick's hysteria at the mention of his name and Laura's lack of excitement about marrying him. However, Mr. Gilmore finds him "a really irresistable man--courteous, considerate, delightfully free from pride--a gentleman, every inch of him" (144). Yet, Mr. Gilmore, too, finds that while he would "cheerfully do anything to promote the interests of Sir Percival Glyde," he finds the one exception of this to be
"drawing the marriage settlements" for his marriage to Laura (144).

We learn quite a bit about Laura's financial situation, but the key points of all of this are that she is a wealthy young woman and is completely at her self-centered, uncaring uncle's mercy--he is her legal guardian and makes all of her legal decisions. When Sir Percival's man of business makes outrageous demands vis-à-vis the marriage settlements, Mr. Fairlie is only too eager to comply simply so he will not have to hear about it anymore. Mr. Gilmore is very perturbed by this turn of events but is powerless to change anything. He travels to Limmeredge to attempt to change Mr. Fairlie's mind, meeting Walter along the way. Walter is pale and haggard and informs Mr. Gilmore that he is leaving the country, with the help of Marian's influence, "to try a change of scene and occupation" (153) in his attempt to get over Laura. Mr. Gilmore is unable to change Mr. Fairlie's decision and is treated to more nonsense than most people could endure in the process. He leaves, sick at heart and furious for Laura's sake. After reluctantly acceding to Glyde's demands, his narrative ends.

1. What do you think of the characters so far? Has your opinion of any of them changed from last week's reading?

2. What are the benefits of transferring the narrative from one character to another? Obviously, it helps when the narrating character can no longer be present, but do you see any other benefits?

3. Walter instinctively trusts Anne Catherick and feels that she should not be imprisoned in an asylum (although there are a few moments in the cemetery when he might have been rethinking that position). Her own mother, however, doesn't seem to agree with this opinion. Who to believe?

4. Do you think Sir Percival's man of business is acting on his orders or is Glyde really (as he claims) too noble to besmirch himself with thoughts of money?

5. Mr. Gilmore tells us that Laura begs Sir Percival to postpone setting a date for their wedding until the end of the year, and her long-suffering (in Mr. Gilmore's opinion) fiancé agrees. Laura, according to her sister, feels very strongly about this and is quite emotional on the subject. A week after Mr. Gilmore's departure from Limmeridge House, he receives word that the wedding date has been set for little more than a month later--exactly as Sir Percival had originally wanted. What could have caused this shift in Laura's plans?

6. Who, at this point, do you consider the most interesting character?

Please feel free to use these guiding questions to shape your comments, or completely disregard them and share your own questions or observations. I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

What I really didn't get -- and fault him for -- is that when Mr. Gilmore earlier asked Laura how she'd like her estate settled, he didn't strongly recommend that she delay her marriage until she was of age, (just a few months more!) at which point she'd have been in a position to ensure her wishes were met, instead of letting her guardian decide. As it played out, Mr. Gilmore was essentially a patsy. We knew that wasn't going to go well.

I also wonder about Laura's father, who thought Sir Percival such a catch.

It was interesting to see the slow change in Mr Gilmore’s attitude over the course of this section. When Hartright first meets him, Gilmore obviously feels there will be a simple explanation to the suggestions made about Glyde in the anonymous letter and is quite blase - he has seen it all before in the course of his legal work. Apart from anything else, Glyde has an “eminent position” and a reputation above suspicion.” When it switches to Gilmore’s narrative the gushing about Glyde continues – his prepossessing appearance, hearty manner, perfect grace, good breeding, good sense, evident concern for Laura – the list goes on and on! Gilmore does care for Laura and has noticed she isn’t looking well, but at this stage he still thinks she is being unreasonable in not wanting to marry Glyde. And sure enough when Glyde “explains” why Anne Catherick sent the letter and presents himself as doing his duty for the daughter of an old servant, Gilmore accepts all this. Although he says his is a “purely judicial” opinion, he is obviously prejudiced in Glyde’s favour. He even admits that if he was “professionally called upon” to present a case against Glyde, he could do, but he doesn’t seem to see that this means Glyde’s story is open to different interpretations. At least he respects Marian’s opinion and the fact that she has doubts does prey on his mind, but he is still shocked at the idea that Laura might withdraw from her engagement without what he sees as a good excuse. Marian says “In the eyes of law and reason” there may be no excuse, but there are other considerations when it comes to marriage. Gilmore finds it difficult not to see everything with the eyes of law or reason and ultimately it is Glyde’s demands in the legal document, the marriage settlement, which finally ring alarm bells for Gilmore. Even if the clause was the idea of Glyde’s lawyer (which I don’t believe) the discovery of Glyde’s debts must also make Gilmore worried for Laura’s future since they would be starting the marriage in very different financial positions.

I agree with Nancy’s comment about Laura’s father and I wonder about his motives. Was he aware of Glyde’s debts? Did he just want Laura to marry into a “good” family and was misguided as to Glyde’s true character? Anne Catherick’s mother is also intriguing – the fact that Anne says she and her mother were “a trouble and a fear to each other” is a very striking phrase. The letter from Mrs Catherick makes me suspect that she may have been in league with Glyde so I wonder about the reasons for this.

The other thing which struck me about this section is how absolutely infuriating Mr Fairlie is!

Wow, it is obvious that none of us want this marriage to take place, as Percival is bent on getting his hands on the hapless girls Fortune. I’ll bet she wanted to leave some money to her art teacher, fat chance of that!


Whilst I was reading the first chapter of this second week, I think I worked out how the novel is going to end, it suddenly came to me, and what a twist it will be if I am right! I won’t say what I’m thinking at this stage, for fear of spoiling everything for everyone else!

Using different narrators throughout the novel reminds me of the moonstone which is set out in a similar manner.

Nancy wrote: "What I really didn't get -- and fault him for -- is that when Mr. Gilmore earlier asked Laura how she'd like her estate settled, he didn't strongly recommend that she delay her marriage until she w..."

I don't know if Laura has the strength of will to withstand a lot of pressure, which she may have gotten from her betrothed and her uncle. How to delay without voicing her reservations or reluctance?

I would like to think that Laura's father was deceived in Sir Percival rather than that he cynically engaged her to a wastrel simply to get a title (although this was not unusual). Marriage among the upper class/nobility was often a transactional business with no pretension to romance. A young woman with money was in a prime position to climb a few rungs on the social ladder; a young man with a title and social position but no money was able to barter his assets for a sizeable fortune. Parents were often more interested in assuring their daughters a secure financial or social position than in accommodating her romantic inclinations.

Lorna wrote: "I agree with Nancy’s comment about Laura’s father and I wonder about his motives. Was he aware of Glyde’s debts? Did he just want Laura to marry into a “good” family and was misguided as to Glyde’s true character? ..."

It is extremely possible that he was deceived. Some people are really good at hiding their true selves from the majority of people they come into contact with. Clearly Sir Percival could be one of these since he seems to have such a good reputation for being friendly and charming and an all-around good guy. Meanwhile, we're getting low-key villain vibes from him with minor tells such as the dog's aversion to him. Where would Laura's father have met him? Dinner parties, men's clubs, other social engagements? People are often on their best behavior in such environments.

Lorna wrote: "The other thing which struck me about this section is how absolutely infuriating Mr Fairlie is! ..." Oh, my gosh, he is the WORST! Unfortunately, Mr. Gilmore would no doubt be fired if he hauled Mr. Fairlie up by his collar and shook him as he deserves. No one around him has the power to force him to deal with situations he wants to avoid. He needs his ears boxed! :)

Neil wrote: "Whilst I was reading the first chapter of this second week, I think I worked out how the novel is going to end, it suddenly came to me, and what a twist it will be if I am right!..."

Now I'm intrigued! Please let us know whether your supposition turns out to be correct!

The characters so far are quite interesting. And I like all of them except the ones we are obviously supposed to hate.

But I think the star of the show so far has been Wilke Collins writing. This is my first book of his, but it absolutely won’t be the last. He is a wonderful writer and knows how to write a suspenseful story! I am riveted! Sheer perfection!

Of course Mr Fairlie is thé worst. Glyde is a crook and will try to get all the money. But Fairlie is letting him, thru his own selfishness and lack of care for anyone except himself. He is the one who really infuriates me. Glyde is gonna do what he’s gonna do: grifters gonna grift. But Fairlie is an inconsiderate selfish whiner and hypochondriac who, despite his supposed illnesses, always has time and sufficient health to play with his toys. He’s just an arse. I don’t blame Gilmore for being over him.

Beda wrote: "He’s just an arse. I don’t blame Gilmore for being over him."

This statement made me understand one reason why I'm not enjoying this book more. It's not just Mr. Fairlie's who's an arse, an over-the-top one who's scarcely credible, it's everyone! Everyone is just too darn passive. Gilmore let things go until the last minute when he was helpless to do anything to protect Laura. Laura is going to accede to her dead father's wishes rather than take a stand for herself. Hartright is unlucky at love but instead of pulling up his socks, he's destroyed. Marian could use her influence over Laura to more effect. And Anne Catherick really is a nut-case, albeit a harmless one.

No matter how personable Sir Percival is when he makes the effort, he's still an obvious creep, controlling, broke and not worth marrying for the title, when Laura's going to have plenty to be on Easy Street in her own right. But he gets it all his own way. I'm disgusted with the lot of them.

Neil wrote: "Whilst I was reading the first chapter of this second week, I think I worked out how the novel is going to end,"

You could hide your prediction with the spoiler function. Then those of us who wish could see it, and it would be evidence to come back to at the end of the novel. You put the word spoiler inside <> and the beginning, then the word spoiler inside <, then backslash, then > at the end.

Dogs do always know, just as Cindy said in her opening comments, and the reaction of Laura's dog to Glyde settled the matter of his honesty for me. I think Nancy brought up two very intriguing points - why didn't Gilmore have the sense to recommend that Laura put off the marriage until she is of age (what's the big hurry?), and why did Laura's father arrange for the marriage? I wonder if Glyde had something on Laura's father that forced his hand? Regarding the letter to Anne's mother, it occurred to me that Glyde may have had the letter sent to someone who is not Anne's mother, a person who would also reply as he wished. Collins is certainly giving us many mysteries!

The biggest mystery to me is the physical resemblance between Laura and Anne. Is there some familial connection between them that is the source of all this trouble?

The reaction of Nina, the dog, is significant in more than one way. It emphasises that Glyde is a threat, and also foreshadows trouble in this marriage. If Glyde resents the dog, this could be very hard on Laura.

This illustration is by John McLennan from the Harper's Weekly series.

Cindy wrote: ".2. What are the benefits of transferring the narrative from one character to another? .."

I am very impressed with Collins' ability to write a completely different voice for Mr. Gilmore. I find I trust his point of view more than Hartright's. And, as frustrating as the scene with Mr. Fairlie is, I found it quite hilarious. Mr. Fairlie is a clown. And he really gets Mr. Gilmore's goat when he suggests he is a "radical".

A Radical!!! I could put up with a good deal of provocation, but, after holding the soundest Conservative principles all my life, I could not put up with being called a Radical. My blood boiled at it—I started out of my chair—I was speechless with Indignation.

The chapters in this section would be an ideal prescription for anyone wanting their ‘senses’ shaken to the core.

Collins’ excellent descriptive prose lifted and dropped the mood and feelings of the characters and created a strong sense of the atmosphere changing.

Walter’s basking in a warm summer of love was over, depicted by the more wintry months taking hold during his preparations to leave. The contrast between Walter’s sincere, narrative warmth and Gilmore’s cold severity was striking. No doubt Gilmore was also sincere but his calculating logic lacked any emotional sensibilities.

Yet even his conclusions finally arrived at something similar to Walter even though their emotions were miles apart. Even if it was for different reasons, they both felt that the forthcoming marriage should not take place.

My favourite scenes/events in this section were:-

a. when Walter met Anne Catherick in the graveyard…..

’She stopped, and I kept silence on my side. I was not granting time for composure to her only, I was gaining time also for myself. Under the wan wild evening light, that woman and I were met together again, a grave between us, the dead about us, the lonesome hills closing us round on every side. The time, the place, the circumstances under which we now stood face to face in the evening stillness of that dreary valley–the lifelong interests which might hang suspended on the next chance words that passed between us–the sense that, for aught I knew to the contrary, the whole future of Laura Fairlie’s life might be determined, for good or for evil, by my winning or losing the confidence of the forlorn creature who stood trembling by her mother’s grave–all threatened to shake the steadiness and the self-control on which every inch of the progress I might yet make now depended. I tried hard, as I felt this, to possess myself of all my resources; I did my utmost to turn the few moments for reflection to the best account.’

b. Walter and Laura grappling with their repressed emotions when they met for the last time in the kitchen of Limmeridge before his departure.

Not many Victorian novels describe grown men crying, but Walter’s tears seemed a fitting way to end his heartfelt narration. From his description during the chance meeting with Gilmore later on, that wasn’t the only time his despair got the better of him.

c. The combination of Laura’s cold, composed and restrained reaction to Sir Percival and her dog’s overt hostiity.
In effect he was being attacked on two fronts and he knew it. Sir Percival’s unruffled good humour and self assurance seemed just one step away from arrogance.

What really concerned me was that after Laura’s desperate pleas to her sister to postpone the marriage indefinitely, only a week later she had agreed to accede to all Sir Percival’s demands. Who or what had caused this remarkable change?

Oh! I forgot to mention Mr. Fairlie. I had to remind myself that he is Laura’s GUARDIAN! He must be the worst guardian I have ever come across in all the Victorian literature I have read.

Of course Marion does all the work in helping and advising Laura but Marion must be so frustrated (and angry) with Mr. Fairlie’s lack of interest and support for Laura.

Trev wrote: "Marion does all the work in helping and advising Laura but Marion must be so frustrated (and angry) with Mr. Fairlie’s lack of interest and support for Laura."

Marian’s in a tough position, as she depends on Mr. Fairlie’s charity. She’s Laura’s relative, not his. It would be hard for her to be angry with him, with justice, and still live on his shilling. The point is, that is the way he is, and people with Laura’s interests at heart *cough* Gilman *cough* have to find a way to work around him.

That said, it occurred to me that I didn’t see a good reason why Mr. Fairlie would want Marian gone, as I suspect she ran interference in terms of running the household. Without Marian, Mr. Fairlie was going to have to bring more effort into making sure his needs were met.

Nancy wrote: "Everyone is just too darn passive. Gilmore let things go until the last minute when he was helpless to do anything to protect Laura. Laura is going to accede to her dead father's wishes rather than take a stand for herself. Hartright is unlucky at love but instead of pulling up his socks, he's destroyed. Marian could use her influence over Laura to more effect...."

I admit that I struggle with this, as well. I think a lot of it can be attributed to the mores of the time. Breaking an engagement was a serious business, since they often resembled a business merger more than an exchange of affections. There were often social repercussions to such an action, as well. It was considered an extremely reprehensible action on the part of a young man unless there had been seriously concerning behavior by the young lady. It was easier for a lady to break an engagement, but she also risked being branded a "jilt" by society for doing so.

In Mr. Gilmore's defense, I don't think he really comprehended the dangers until right before his narrative ended. I went back and looked at his section again. He could see that Laura was clearly having doubts about the marriage, but he was told that she had requested more time from Sir Percival and in Mr. Gilmore's conversation with Laura after that knowledge, they both seemed to be under the impression that there was no urgency to the situation, that the extra time would be granted. Mr. Gilmore privately believes Laura should end the engagement just based on her own feelings--he still thinks Sir Percival is quite a catch! I think that he believes she will come to this decision on her own in the time she has to reflect. After returning to London, he receives the message that the marriage will still take place before her birthday and that she has gone on a trip with Marian. He does not see or speak to Laura again during his narrative as she is not at home when he travels to see Mr. Fairlie. He is not allowed, therefore, to give her any further advice about postponing the wedding.

Walter, even without Sir Percival's existence, is considered a terrible match for Laura based on class and wealth alone--she would be lowering herself dreadfully to marry a drawing-master. He really has no power to press his suit and would pretty much be considered a cad for doing so. Laura's devotion to her father's wishes is pretty much set in stone due to his death. This elevates him to a divine role in her life--it would take a lot to make her go against what seems to have been his dying request. Since he is no longer around to have his opinion of Sir Percival changed, the poor girl is pretty much locked in.

I think Marian has a lot of influence over Laura, but we are not yet privy to what happened between them after Mr. Gilmore left. I can't imagine that Marian just sat back and said nothing--that would be completely unlike her! Clearly something happened that stymied Marian, but we will have to read the next section to find out what that is!

Ginny wrote: "And, as frustrating as the scene with Mr. Fairlie is, I found it quite hilarious. Mr. Fairlie is a clown. And he really gets Mr. Gilmore's goat when he suggests he is a "radical"...."

How satisfying it would have been to see Mr. Gilmore engage in fisticuffs with Mr. Fairlie! I am confident that Mr. Gilmore would have been the victor. :)

Nancy wrote: "The biggest mystery to me is the physical resemblance between Laura and Anne. Is there some familial connection between them that is the source of all this trouble?..."

I know, right? I'm wondering if Anne Catherick doesn't turn out to be from the wrong side of the blanket and that's why they have never known of her existence? It does seem odd that she would resemble Laura so closely without being related. We shall see!

Trev wrote: "Of course Marion does all the work in helping and advising Laura but Marion must be so frustrated (and angry) with Mr. Fairlie’s lack of interest and support for Laura...."

It must have been so hard for her not to just let him have it! Both women are so completely at his mercy though--Laura as his legal ward, and Marian as his "tenant," if you will. He could send her away from his home at any moment, so she has to be civil if she doesn't want to be separated from her beloved sister. But, oh, how she must have had to bite her tongue! It's a wonder she has any of it left!

Cindy wrote: "Nancy wrote: "The biggest mystery to me is the physical resemblance between Laura and Anne. Is there some familial connection between them that is the source of all this trouble?..."

I know, right..."

Physical resemblance! Now there is a clue, I have a conjecture about how the novel will end and we may be both on the right track Cindy!