On The Same Page discussion

Feel free to join Alissa, Lindsey and me as we read John Grisham's latest - a nonfiction book about wrongful convictions. We are planning to start reading the week of June 9th, but you can start at any time and we'll discuss it with you! Here's the summary....

Ten harrowing true stories of wrongful convictions. Impeccably researched and grippingly told, Framed offers an inside look at the injustice faced by the victims of the United States criminal justice system.

A fundamental principle of our legal system is a presumption of innocence, but once someone has been found guilty there is very little room to prove doubt. Framed shares ten true stories of men who were innocent but found guilty and forced to sacrifice friends, families, wives, and decades of their lives to prison while the guilty parties remained free. In each of the stories, John Grisham and Jim McCloskey recount the dramatic hard-fought battles for exoneration. They take a close look at what leads to wrongful convictions in the first place, and the racism, misconduct, flawed testimony, and the corrupt court system that can make them so hard to reverse.

Told with page-turning suspense as only John Grisham can deliver, Framed is the story of overcoming adversity when the battle already seems lost, and the deck is stacked against you.

OK, I started early. I couldn't help myself. But, I had to set it down last night, I was so enraged. This is going to be a doozy of a read.

Truly astonishing stories....my book club read it a few months ago, but I could not read it with them at the time. It was an interesting discussion, but now having read the book, oh boy!

Ioana wrote: "Truly astonishing stories....my book club read it a few months ago, but I could not read it with them at the time. It was an interesting discussion, but now having read the book, oh boy!"

Yeah, I just finished it. There were a lot of starts and stops. It was very upsetting. At one point, tears came to my eyes. I think this one would be very interesting to discuss as a group. Reading about what happened in these ten cases definitely points for a need for some changes to our criminal justice system.

I started it yesterday. I agree, i think this is going to be a book I have to read a case at time. It's real heavy. But also you have to shake your head at some of the basic stupidity! I mean - the first case of the four, but turned in 6 or 7 wrongfully convicted in Virginia - so when DNA doesn't match the first guy, instead of admitting they may be wrong they say "No, there were two". And they kept doing that??!!?? At some point why didn't the DA cut things off and just say, we screwed up? Its appalling that the police and Da's office did this, and almost got away with it!

Ok, this may be a really stupid question... and a sign i watch way too many cop shows on tv... but I thought you had to have some type of evidence to actually arrest someone and hold them longer than 48 hours? How are all of these people getting arrested with zero physical evidence tying them to the crime, and in several cases actually evidence to prove they were not at the scene of the crime?

Lindsey wrote: "Ok, this may be a really stupid question... and a sign i watch way too many cop shows on tv... but I thought you had to have some type of evidence to actually arrest someone and hold them longer than 48 hours? How are all of these people getting arrested with zero physical evidence tying them to the crime, and in several cases actually evidence to prove they were not at the scene of the crime?"

Testimony is considered evidence. The law in virtually every state is well settled that the testimony even of a single witness, if believed, is sufficient to support a conviction. Law enforcement knows this, and that's why they are so eager to get someone to either confess to the crime or someone else who saw them do it.

Lea wrote: "Lindsey wrote: "Ok, this may be a really stupid question... and a sign i watch way too many cop shows on tv... but I thought you had to have some type of evidence to actually arrest someone and hol..."

As scary as that is, it makes sense. In most of these cases thry had witness either falsely identify them or casually reference it may be this person.

I thought it was interesting how many of these cases came from Texas.

Lindsey wrote: "As scary as that is, it makes sense. In most of these cases thry had witness either falsely identify them or casually reference it may be this person.

I thought it was interesting how many of these cases came from Texas."

I was surprised at how many cases came from places other than Texas. :-) Honestly, the case of the Norfolk Four that started the book was just jaw dropping. That was in Norfolk, Virginia. Three hours south of Washington D.C.

I do think testimony and confessions should be considered evidence. However, I also know that our minds are crazy interesting, and our memories are not always to be believed. Ask somebody to describe a gathering that you both were at one month ago, and you will hear a different memory than the one you had. However, if you gently prod them by telling them about your memories, you both might rewrite your memories to mesh with one another. We write our own story at that point, and reenforce each other's memories. The fact that the law enforcement exploit this in order to improve their own conviction records has devastating consequences. It causes innocent people to be convicted. And almost equally terrible that guilty people walk free without anyone continuing to look for them.

The other thing that was really eye opening to me was how many times the prosecution with held evidence from the defense teams. These are supposed to be the good guys.

I get this was just 10 cases out of millions that are tried in court each day. And a few bad apples doesn’t mean the entire orchard is bad.

Lindsey wrote: "The other thing that was really eye opening to me was how many times the prosecution with held evidence from the defense teams. These are supposed to be the good guys.

I get this was just 10 cases out of millions that are tried in court each day. And a few bad apples doesn’t mean the entire orchard is bad."

I was so enraged by this. I hold the justice system to a higher standard than the general public. If you all are going to enforce the laws of this land, then you darn skippy better follow the law yourself. If you are supposed to provide something to the defense team, do it.

And don't get me started on the jailhouse snitch testimonies where nobody is supposed to be getting compensated for their testimony, but somehow someone leaving jail ends up having a new car waiting for them. Unacceptable.

I wish all prospective jurors would read this book, so they would know just how much credence to give this type of evidence.

I don't think the entire orchard is bad either, but I'm also quite sure that there are more bad apples out there. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. There are a lot of players in the justice system who are after power.

Amen on the jailhouse snitches!! This book could be an entire course in law school. I know if I'm called to be a juror again, i will really look at evidence with more of a magnifying glass versus just trusting the attorneys. I wish those corrupted DAs and prosecution teams had received more harsh repercussions for their illegal actions. Maybe let them sit in jail for awhile to see how it feels. I get that many of these cases were high profile for their areaand they probably had alot of pressure from higher up to get a conviction quickly. But that doesn't excuse them blatantly breaking the law to put innocent people in jail.

The Savannah case really pissed me off. Honestly, all of the cases just makes you want to throw the book out a window and scream "How in the f*%# did that really just happen?"

Which case do you think was the most upsetting? Alissa asked me which of the cases made me the most upset. It's a hard question, because all of them are so enraging. Yes, Savannah was unbelievable, without any gunshot evidence, the assumption that they did it just because they stopped to ask directions. Or how about the one in Missouri where the eyewitness comes forward to help out the police, only to become convicted of that same crime and serve 16 years. Or the one where the dude is mourning the loss of his kids that died in a fire, and he is arrested, convicted, and dies...and then they are like...oopsies, maybe what we thought was arson is really just regular fire behavior after all?!? Or the janitor that was convicted in Texas because somebody had to pay and the real killer has still never been found? I'm getting riled up again just thinking about all of these stories.

There were parts of all cases that really upset me, but I think the ones that really made me want to throw my book out the window were - the Norfolk Four, The Savannah case, the lady eye witness sho came forward ro help police and ended up being arrested for thr crime, and the one where the house catches on fire and the Dad is wrongfully blamed.

I'm not normally one to say sequel to a nonfiction book, but I'd be interested in reading more cases. I like how theu structured the book. It would be interesting if they did another one with 10 more cases.

Lindsey wrote: "I'm not normally one to say sequel to a nonfiction book, but I'd be interested in reading more cases. I like how theu structured the book. It would be interesting if they did another one with 10 mo..."

I agree, I'd like a sequel too.
One interesting discussion with my book club when we read this book was appointed vs elected judges and/or sheriffs, and how this might matter.
One is not necessarily better than the other; if elected, election timing might influence how a certain case is prosecuted or judged. If appointed, the relationship between the accused and the one who did the appointment might influence the case. None of these should matter, but unfortunately, they do. Power corrupts...

Ioana wrote: "Lindsey wrote: "I'm not normally one to say sequel to a nonfiction book, but I'd be interested in reading more cases. I like how theu structured the book. It would be interesting if they did anothe..."

That's an interesting point. This is a great book for a book club. So much to discuss. I didn't really pay attention to which were appointed versus elected, but i agree on how it can make a difference. And it shouldn't - they should follow the letter of the law regardless.

Ioana wrote: "I agree, I'd like a sequel too.
One interesting discussion with my book club when we read this book was appointed vs elected judges and/or sheriffs, and how this might matter.
One is not necessarily better than the other; if elected, election timing might influence how a certain case is prosecuted or judged. If appointed, the relationship between the accused and the one who did the appointment might influence the case. None of these should matter, but unfortunately, they do. Power corrupts..."

That's interesting, I never gave any thought to elected officials vs. appointed officials. Like Lindsey, I didn't pay attention to whether these people were appointed or elected, and it would be interesting to compare records between those two types of sheriffs and judges.

In California, where I live, sheriffs are elected by the people. Also, trial judges are elected, unless there is a mid-term vacancy. Appellate judges are initially appointed by the Governor, but they must face reelection elections. I find voting for the judges, in particular, the trickiest part of voting. I spend the most time on them because their history is difficult to research. And when a jury is involved, it is hard to determine whether the judge influenced the jury deliberations or not.

Speaking of juries, I have mixed thoughts about professional jurists versus a "jury of peers" being that it is highly unlikely that a jury of my peers would ever get seated.

Nonetheless, I agree with Ioana that power corrupts, and Lindsey, that those associated with justice should follow the letter of the law regardless. :-)

You know how alot of majors require a senior thesis ro graduate college? This topic would make an excellent one - compare and contrast trials with appointed versus elected judges and those outcomes. See if there was a difference or if that influenced the outcome in any way.

Lindsey wrote: "You know how alot of majors require a senior thesis ro graduate college? This topic would make an excellent one - compare and contrast trials with appointed versus elected judges and those outcomes. See if there was a difference or if that influenced the outcome in any way."

Yes! Of course, he/she would have to author a book/article or team up with a reporter so we could hear about what happened!

Lindsey wrote: "You know how alot of majors require a senior thesis ro graduate college? This topic would make an excellent one - compare and contrast trials with appointed versus elected judges and those outcomes..."

That would be an interesting topic, for a thesis or a book.

I read this book a few months back, in February of this year, and it was difficult to get through at times, the stories so heart breaking at times. I know this was just a small snapshot and I hope that these do represent the exception, and not the rule in law enforcement and prosecution, but it's hard not to be put off by these stories. The cops, lawyers, and judges who mistreated these victims (because that's what they are) were in their positions for YEARS and I find it hard to believe that they only skirted the law in these cases. It is unfortunate, but they likely abused the system to their benefit, and to the detriment of many people throughout their tenure.

If you want to learn more about wrongful convictions you can check out the Innocence Project website, they have a lot of information and resources on where to learn more.

There are also some great podcasts about the criminal justice system and wrongful convictions:
- Serial - Season1: This entire season is dedicated to a single case of Adnan Syed. If you think you know the story, you don't and it's worth a full listen to understand how fully this young kid was railroaded by everyone, including his own lawyer.
- Serial - Season 3: An interesting season which follows various cases and perspectives withing a single courthouse (I think in Ohio). I learned a lot about the justice system and how the system is designed... a must listen to if you want to hear first hand accounts of how the justice system works in the real world.
- Crimes of the Centuries: Not so much about current crimes or criminal justice system, but about crimes of the past and how they created or changed laws which currently exist and/or how the media reacted to, and turned some cases into sensations. An interesting podcast when you want to hear about crime but maybe not be as depressed hearing about injustice in the system.

Kristen wrote: "I read this book a few months back, in February of this year, and it was difficult to get through at times, the stories so heart breaking at times. I know this was just a small snapshot and I hope ..."

I listened to the Serial podcast! OMG it was soo good! You are right about if you think you know that story then listen. Honestly by the end i had no clue which way i thiught on his innocence... Then i started to listen to Undisclosed. My cousin recommended I listen to both of those before reading the book. The Undisclosed is by his cousin who is a lawyer and has maintained his innocence from the beginning. I honestly think I liked Serial better because she didn't have a dog in the race, so she was looking at the case from all sides. Have you read the book Adnan's Story: The Search for Truth and Justice After Serial?

Lindsey wrote: "Kristen wrote: "I read this book a few months back, in February of this year, and it was difficult to get through at times, the stories so heart breaking at times. I know this was just a small snap..."

I haven't read that book - I honestly needed a brain break after reading Framed and also Black AF History: The Un-Whitewashed Story of America. While they are important to read, I felt I needed a break since both books were upsetting and a bit depressing.

I try to read at least one non-fiction book a month so I'll definitely add this to my non-fiction TBR list, thanks for the recommendation.

And in answer to an earlier question in this thread, the case which upset me the most was the final case, the one about Cameron Todd Willingham because he was actually executed for the crime. The system failed him. I also found it terrifying how much pseudo-science is used during trials, not only in this case, but in an earlier case in the book discussing bite mark "evidence" and using "professionals" who are paid to provided biased and unscientific testimony. It's truly unbelievable.

I listened to the first season of Serial and read Adnan's Story: The Search for Truth and Justice After Serial. I preferred Serial also. I could not vote to convict Syed, he wasn't proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, based upon what I know.

I want to read When Truth Is All You Have: A Memoir of Faith, Justice, and Freedom for the Wrongly Convicted at some point, which is by Jim McCloskey who co-authored Framed with Grisham. I also want to read Black AF History: The Un-Whitewashed Story of America, but I need a month or two to settle my thoughts on Framed. Otherwise, being this enraged will be normalized, and I wouldn't want that.

Lea wrote: "I listened to the first season of Serial and read Adnan's Story: The Search for Truth and Justice After Serial. I preferred Serial also. I could not vote to convict Syed, he wasn't ..."

Black AF History: The Un-Whitewashed Story of America is an amazing book, and a must-read for everyone. It's a great primer of US history which is often not taught or talked about in academic or political circles, but it should be. But you're right - take a break between the two; I read them fairly close to each other and it was difficult to let the rage go.

Kristen wrote: "Black AF History: The Un-Whitewashed Story of America is an amazing book, and a must-read for everyone. It's a great primer of US history which is often not taught or talked about in academic or political circles, but it should be. But you're right - take a break between the two; I read them fairly close to each other and it was difficult to let the rage go"

Yeah, I try to read a few books that will provoke me to think...and from different perspectives if possible...but I cannot do more than that. You're brave to take on those two books so close together. I hope you can get a palate cleanser in there and read something fun. And of course, we shouldn't just read and be enraged and do nothing. We can all try and figure out how we can have a better educated and more caring community around us, each in our own ways. Happy reading!

Ok, I'm glad i wasn't the only one who felt that book was super heavy. I agree we need ro read these books, but then my mind needs some easy reads too.

Lindsey wrote: "Ok, I'm glad i wasn't the only one who felt that book was super heavy. I agree we need ro read these books, but then my mind needs some easy reads too."

Yes! I am Team Variety for sure! If I read too much of the same type of book, I find that the books begin to lose their impact on me. Obviously, for nonfiction, but for everything really. Cozy mysteries and romance included. :-)

John Grisham to author non-fiction book on Robert Roberson

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kltv...

Lindsey wrote: "John Grisham to author non-fiction book on Robert Roberson

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kltv..."

Oh wow. We will have to read that one also.