Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Onward. Are people still with us?

With a few things going on, I've just made it through the Week 5 reading, am just starting Week 6 tonight, so I don't have any question to start off this week's discussion with. I know some of you are through this section; I invite you to jump in and carry the discussion for a bit while I catch up with the reading.

Thanks!

I'm still hangin' in there. I have to say again how much I love the way Hugo describes the infatuation between cosette and marius. Eponine also strikes my interest.

Anyone else intrigued by the lines about humanity (p722 in the Fahnestock translation) which talks about man being the same darkness before, during and after death and then goes on to say: "But ignorance, mixed with the human composition blackens it. This incurable ignorance possesses the heart of man, and there becomes Evil."?? I've often heard (and thought) that people who are prejudiced, for example, are just ignorant. But is ignorance responsible for all Evil?

Hugo's program for social improvement seems to be education. I'm not sure he ever explains why or details how, but, I think Evalyn raises an interesting quetion in wondering if "ignorance is responsible for all Evil."

If this is what Hugo thinks, he is promoting a rather radical ideal, and diverging from centuries of conventional "wisdom."

Zeke wrote: "Hugo's program for social improvement seems to be education. I'm not sure he ever explains why or details how, but, I think Evalyn raises an interesting quetion in wondering if "ignorance is respo..."

Which takes us right back to the beginning with Valjean using education to improve himself during his years in prison.

So, Everyman, are you suggesting (or is Hugo) that education is now equivalent to salavation?

Evalyn wrote: "Anyone else intrigued by the lines about humanity (p722 in the Fahnestock translation) which talks about man being the same darkness before, during and after death and then goes on to say: "But ign..."

The earlier part of that quotation is also interesting : "Humanity is identity. All men are the same clay. No difference, here below at least, in predestination. The same darkness before, the same flesh during, the same ashes after life."

So here again we see Hugo reiterating his romantic conception of man and his notion that an individual's identity is nothing but society's creation.

Evalyn wrote: "Anyone else intrigued by the lines about humanity (p722 in the Fahnestock translation) which talks about man being the same darkness before, during and after death and then goes on to say: "But ign..."

Hugo thinks that all men are born good, or at least neutral, in terms of being a moral person. It is only through influence, either negative or positive, that they receive later in life that they become good or evil. Ignorance is a negative influence that can turn a man evil. Education is its cure. I think that's what the gist of his thinking is.

If Hitler had a sound moral education, would he became a mass murderer? Or are some people just born to be bad?

I love the introduction of the Patron-Minette. Stephen pointed out in our week 5 discussions (and I agree wholeheartedly) that Hugo has a unique ability to introduce new characters in the most engaging way. What is it that makes these introductions so fantastic? He is able to develop for each character both unique physical traits and eclectic, unexpected behaviors. Take for example the ex-dentist who lost track of his family “as one loses his handkerchief” or the evil young man whose life of crime is driven by his love of fine clothes. Hugo is a master at fusing these comical peculiarities with insights into what instinctively pleases, disturbs or frightens us about new acquaintances: “He was transparent but impenetrable. Daylight was visible through his bones, but nothing through his eyes.” Or “Gueulemer, built after this sculptural fashion, might have subdued monsters; he had found it more expeditious to be one.”

I am still reading this weeks assignment. I am up to the "Use made of Marius's five francs, chapter.

I have two questions.

* first question contains a spoiler for this weeks reading.

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Does Hugo explain what happened to the baby boy Thenardier? Did I miss that?

At the end of chapter 5, right after Hugo uses the title of the book, he uses the term Judas Window. I've never heard this term before. What does it mean?
I am guessing it is related to Judas from the bible. So it has something to do with betrayal.

Thanks !

Dawn, I too, love the way Hugo can turn a phrase.

I meant to post one from last weeks reading that I enjoyed.

In chapter IV Monsieur Mabeuf Hugo writes:

"He never left home without a book under his arm, and often came back with two."

Sounds a lot like me when I go to the library or a book store. :)

Judas Window: n. an aperture or glass pane that permits safe or surreptitious observation through a door or wall.

Lots of citations at:

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.ph...

I asked: Does Hugo explain what happened to the baby boy Thenardier? Did I miss that?
------------------

Never mind. :)

Zeke: Judas Window: n. an aperture or glass pane that permits safe or surreptitious observation through a door or wall.
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I understood what it was in Les. Miz. I just wondered why the name Judas. I am guessing since Judas is synonymous with betrayal. The aperture is a betrayal of someone's privacy.

Thanks for the double tongued web site, Zeke. I've saved it to my favorites.

Alias Reader wrote: I understood what it was in Les. Miz. I just wondered why the name Judas. I am guessing since Judas is synonymous with betrayal. The aperture is a betrayal of someone's privacy.

Thanks for the double tongued web site, Zeke. I've saved it to my favorites.

Judas was sort of a spy for the Sanhedrin, and a Judas window is used for spying on the person in the room or cell.

That "double-tongued" site will be especially appropriate soon, because Hugo has some chapters on jargon, or argot, coming up soon.

Laurele: Judas was sort of a spy for the Sanhedrin, and a Judas window is used for spying on the person in the room or cell.

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Thanks, Laurele !

Any thoughts about the chapter describing Louis-Phillipe? Or about the almost two page long sentence at the heart of it?

Zeke: Any thoughts about the chapter describing Louis-Phillipe? Or about the almost two page long sentence at the heart of it?
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The book would get a top rating for me if it weren't for these long and tedious sidetracks Hugo insists on.
Perhaps if I lived in Hugo's time, I would have more interest since it would be current events and people I would be reading about. However, to be honest, these sections makes my mind go numb and I am forced to skim until he goes back to the heart of the story.

I just switched my rating from 5 to 3 stars as I had read it, or at least thought I had, about 20 years ago and liked it. The riot scene for me is just so dull. He talks about all the roads like we are supposed to know them and I can't get interested in the characters except for Marius and Cosette. All the other stuff for me is just crap I have to wade through.

For me the most interesting character is Javert.

Zeke wrote: "Any thoughts about the chapter describing Louis-Phillipe? Or about the almost two page long sentence at the heart of it?"

Hugo writes these political pieces like op-eds, which nuances are impossible to grasp unless you're very familiar about the current events of his time. I skimmed most of it.

And that sentence has got to be one of the longest sentences ever penned!

Zeke wrote: "So, Everyman, are you suggesting (or is Hugo) that education is now equivalent to salavation?"

I don't think Hugo suggests that -- it wasn't his education, but Myriel purchasing his soul (with a lie) that will, if anything does, lead to his salvation.

Indeed, the suggestion may be stronger that Hugo believes that salvation is a matter of works, not faith. Myriel's holiness seems to come more from his sacrifices to benefit others than from his belief in God, which is more taken for granted than discussed in any detail. Valjean shows his virtue through his contributions to others, to the people of Montreuiel, in lifting the cart, in saving Cosette, and in other acts. We see little if anything of the nature of his religious faith, if any. Only the nuns (so far) are shown to be seeking salvation in faith rather than works, and even in their case there are many works they do which supplement their faith.

It's perhaps early to tell where all this will lead, but to answer your question simply, no, I wasn't suggesting that Hugo equates education with salvation, but rather with leading a better life (recalling that Valjean originally sought education to become a better enemy of the state).

Alias Reader wrote: "In chapter IV Monsieur Mabeuf Hugo writes:

"He never left home without a book under his arm, and often came back with two." "

I relate to Mabeuf more than to anybody else in the book so far.

Dianna wrote: "I just switched my rating from 5 to 3 stars as I had read it, or at least thought I had, about 20 years ago and liked it. "

Is it possible that you read an abridged version, and the full version now? I would think the abridged versions would delete many of these diversions some of us like and some don't.

I am beginning to view this book as a sort of symphony. Hugo seems to weave characters in an out as a composer weaves instruments in and out of the symphony, putting together different combination of instruments and themes to move the music forward.

He brings in Myriel as a soloist, then brings Valjean in for a duet, then Valjean gets his own solo passage. We then get Fantine in duet with Cosette, in a brief trio with the Thenardiers, then she moves into a duet with Valjean. Valjean gets a duet with Javert, then after some orchestral passages Valjean is in duet with Cosette, then the two in a scary trio with Javert, then a soothing passage in the convent. Now Marius moves onstage, first as a solo playing against his grandfather, then in and out of duet and trio with Valjean and Cosette which at this point it seems may continue further into the book. All this is of course fanciful, but it does seem that Hugo does a masterful job of bringing each character forward for some solo attention, then bringing them into interactions with other characters, mingling them in various combinations.

Even more fanciful, I've been playing with assigning instruments to some of the characters. For example, Myriel I hear as the viola, lonely and deep and somewhat haunting but true to its fairly limited repertoire. Valjean is the French Horn, starting out harsh and hard, but becoming mellow and beautiful as the symphony moves on, but always with a bit of an edge. Cosette is the flute, always beautiful, light, sparkling. Javert, of course, is the bassoon, the wolf of Peter and the Wolf, menacing and striking at something shivery inside us.

Ah, all just fancy, of course.

Oh, I like that Everyman!

Myriel purchasing his soul (with a lie) that will, if anything does, lead to his salvation.

Indeed, the suggestion may be stronger that Hugo believes that salvation is a matter of works, not faith.

Not a lie, because Myriel told Valjean early on that all that he had was his (Valjean's

I agree that Hugo's is a religion of works.

How come Cosette doesn't recognize the Thernadiers? It is only 8 years since she left them, not enough time to render them totally unrecognizable to her. I can buy JVJ not recognizing them because he only spent a day with them in Montfermeuil, but Cosette LIVED with them for years! She was 8 years old when she left them, old enough to remember.

Am I missing something here?

Also, isn't it just a tad too convenient that the Thernadiers, JVJ and Marius (whose father was 'rescued' by Thernadier at Waterloo) just meet like that in the Goerbeau tenement? And in a city as big as Paris, Javert JUST happens to be the police commissioner responsible for that area.

Everyman wrote: "I am beginning to view this book as a sort of symphony. Hugo seems to weave characters in an out as a composer weaves instruments in and out of the symphony, putting together different combination..."


I always hear the music from the Broadway musical when I read the book, but it sounds good as a symphony too! : )

I really like Everyman's metaphor of the symphony and assigning instruments to the characters. It could equally work as an opera with its duets, trios, choruses, etc.

Indeed, Verdi based two operas on works of Hugo's: Ernani and Rigoletto. Jean Valjean's behavior through this part of the book, where he has been shielding Cosette from the world reminds me of Rigoletto and Gilda somewhat.

I'm going to try applying Everyman's approach to the structure of other books.

Sandybanks wrote: "How come Cosette doesn't recognize the Thernadiers? It is only 8 years since she left them, not enough time to render them totally unrecognizable to her. I can buy JVJ not recognizing them because ..."

That's a great question.

Another question, much less great but still a bother to me, is how and when Valjean and Cosette left the convent and convent school. Did I miss something? (It's easy to miss things in a book this huge!) Was that explained? One would think that Valjean, having found a safe refuge for himself and Cosette in the convent, wouldn't leave it casually or easily. But without any notice that I found, suddenly they're living outside the convent. How come?

I really liked the way Hugo described Marius's gradual infatuation with Cosette. Seemed very real to me for the time (today, of course, we're much more casual about meeting people, but in those days without a formal introduction it was much harder.)

Reminds me a bit of the movie Gigi, if you've seen it -- the sudden transformation, seemingly overnight, of a young girl into a young woman.

Some time ago I quoted Adam Gopink from the introduction to the Rose translation on the importance of the long digressions in Les Miserables. In what I dubbed an arresting, if impossible, metaphor, he said: “The gassy bits in Les Miserables aren’t really gassy. They’re as good as the good bits. They’re what give the good bits the gas to get them off the ground.” I’m grateful to Aliasreader for his puncturing of the balloon; and to those who find the digressions elevating. These opposed reactions have led me to spend some time trying to figure out the function of these sections in the novel.

I’d like to float a theory. [Apologies for the pun on “float.”:] First, I need to say something about my view of Hugo’s characters and plot. Captivating as both may be, on their own, they don’t add up to much more than a run-of-the-mill Romance or melodrama. The plot (as others have documented) is improbable. Quite stylized, the characters are not presented as archetypes, but neither are they credible as people one might encounter in real life.

I’ve concluded that Hugo doesn’t really care about his characters. He wants to study humanity, not people. He wants to critique society, not expose psychology. But the fashion of his time won’t allow for a straightforward allegorical tale like, say, Pilgrim’s Progress.

So he has a challenge. A straight political-philosophical treatise will not capture readers’ hearts; and, of course, Hugo is, first, a story teller. But, even at the height of the Romantic Era, merely plotting the travails of Jean Valjean, Cosette, Marius, etc. won’t vitalize social change. (Or could they? One might consider Uncle Tom’s Cabin.)

The more I thought about it, the more I think Gopink may have things exactly backwards. The digressions don't "elevate" the good bits, they “ground” the characters. They place the characters in a broader context: that of France’s revolutionary heritage. The characters make the history come alive. Hugo wants them to inspire a return to that heritage and an abandonment of bourgoise complacency.

A Victorian author we haven’t yet mentioned in this thread is Trollope. I haven’t read much of his work. But it seems to me that he approaches this in a different way. With a smaller canvass and subtler characterizations, he leaves readers to draw their own conclusions about the society the characters inhabit. On the other hand, he also leaves the reader free to ignore the social implications and simply enjoy the story.

Hugo’s agenda is bolder. Whether or not he succeeds is debatable—as the comments have demonstrated. As I said, this is just a hypothesis. Feel free to disprove it!

Zeke wrote: "I really like Everyman's metaphor of the symphony and assigning instruments to the characters. It could equally work as an opera with its duets, trios, choruses, etc.

Indeed, Verdi based two opera..."But I think the bassoon is too complex for Javert.

Andrea wrote: "But I think the bassoon is too complex for Javert."

I was relating it partly to the wolf in Peter and the Wolf. What would you suggest as an alternative? The tuba? Timpani? I considered both of those. But neither seems to have the underlying edge that makes one a bit uneasy without knowing why.

Everyman wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "How come Cosette doesn't recognize the Thernadiers? It is only 8 years since she left them, not enough time to render them totally unrecognizable to her. I can buy JVJ not recogn..."

JVJ was worried that Cosette would become a nun without having seen anything of life before she made her decision and so come to hate him in her later years. He wanted, the book says, to show her something of life outside the walls. Seems odd that then he would hide her away again in out-of-the-way homes, but he seems to be becoming possessive of her affection. (Part 4, book 3, chapter 1)

Everyman wrote: "Andrea wrote: "But I think the bassoon is too complex for Javert."

I was relating it partly to the wolf in Peter and the Wolf. What would you suggest as an alternative? The tuba? Timpani? I co..."

I think the bassoon is right for Javert. Trombone for Mme Thénardier? Piccolo trumpet for Gavroche? Saxophone for Éponine? Violin for Marius?

Everyman wrote #31: Another question, much less great but still a bother to me, is how and when Valjean and Cosette left the convent and convent school. Did I miss something? (It's easy to miss things in a book this huge!) Was that explained? One would think that Valjean, having found a safe refuge for himself and Cosette in the convent, wouldn't leave it casually or easily. But without any notice that I found, suddenly they're living outside the convent. How come?

.."
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Book 3 The House in the Rue Plumet
1 The secret House
about 6 paragraphs in Hugo writes your exact question.

"But why had Jean Valjean left the Petit-Pipus convent? What happened?

names

This week we find Valjean going by the name
Ultime Fauchelevent.

I thought in this weeks reading in chapter IV The Changed Grill it interesting that Cossette is not even given her mother's name.

"...she had come to believe that her mother had been almost non existent. She did not even know her name, and when she asked Valjean he would not answer."

IV- The gang
Hugo actually gives us a list of the gangs alias'

It's interesting that from the very first posts where we talked about the importance of losing ones name and becoming a number (24601), that the importance of names continues to be woven through the novel.

@Everyman - I love the musical instrument analogy.

@Zeke - You make some very good points. All through our discussions we return to the same themes about the characters’ resemblance to reality (or not) and the social situations present in France at that time. Our author has been intentionally leading us to these contemplations. The digressions play a big role in helping us understand the situation or convincing us to agree with Hugo. I do still wish they were shorter, though.

Alias Reader wrote: "names

This week we find Valjean going by the name
Ultime Fauchelevent. "

Does anybody have a good enough memory to remember all the names that Valjean and Cosette have gone by up to this point? It's been a bunch, and I'm sure I've overlooked or lost track of some of them.

Peregrine wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "How come Cosette doesn't recognize the Thernadiers? It is only 8 years since she left them, not enough time to render them totally unrecognizable to her. I can b..."

Reading this book together is a great help. We need each other to keep things straight!

Everyman wrote: Alias Reader wrote: "names

This week we find Valjean going by the name
Ultime Fauchelevent. "

Does anybody have a good enough memory to remember all the names that Valjean and Cosette have gone by up to this point? It's been a bunch, and I'm sure I've overlooked or lost track of some of them.


My guess is that Alias Reader can name them all for you.

Peregrine wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "How come Cosette doesn't recognize the Thernadiers? It is only 8 years since she left them, not enough time to render them totally unrecognizable to her. I can b..."

But that doesn't explain why Cosette is suddenly stricken by selective amnesia and
therefore is unable to recognize the Thernadiers. I wonder if Hugo is going to explain that later, or whether we are supposed to just swallow it because realism is not important in Les Mis?

Alias Reader wrote: "I asked: Does Hugo explain what happened to the baby boy Thenardier? Did I miss that?
------------------

Never mind. :)"

I thought that he grew up to be Gavroche the street urchin?

Sandybanks: I thought that he grew up to be Gavroche the street urchin?
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Yes, when I finished this weeks reading I realized that.

I may be wrong, it has been a long time since I saw the Broadway play, but I don't recall this being the case. In the play I think they only have Eponine.
Gavroche is an unrelated street kid in the show.
That is why I was thrown.

Does anybody have a good enough memory to remember all the names that Valjean and Cosette have gone by up to this point?
========================

I didn't write them down, but sometimes underlined them in the text.

Here is what I have.

Jean Valjean

- Pere Madeleine
- Yellow Man
- Mr. Don't know your name. (what Thenardier calls him)
- Father
- M. Guillaume Lambert -what Thenardier tells Javert is on the JVJ passport the "grandfather"
- 24601
- Le blanc
-Ultime Fauchelevent
-the other Fauvent

Cosette

- Lark
- Ursula
- Euphrasie -birth name

Thenardier

- Jondrette
- Fabantou

I would note that the one of the few people who has one name is Javert. His name, like his beliefs, is unchanging.

Laurel was right -- Alias Reader knows!

I love your comment "I would note that the one of the few people who has one name is Javert. His name, like his beliefs, is unchanging."

That suggests that perhaps it's possible to attach changes in personality to the changing names of the other characters. Very much in line with the theme of identity we talked about earlier but haven't mentioned much (if at all) in the past few weeks.

It is interesting that through the scene when Marius is supposed to shoot the pistol to call the police I kept thinking, "just do it already. Somebody's going to get killed." And then it turned out that JVJ would not have wanted him to anyway. Hugo knows how to play with the reader's emotions. And also to lead me to jump to conclusions about the best course of action. I don't know as much about the situation as I feel I do. Am I making any sense? In other words, while I know so much about the characters' backgrounds, I'm often not anymore clear than the characters about what should be done in a given situation.

Alias Reader wrote: "Sandybanks: I thought that he grew up to be Gavroche the street urchin?
=======================

Yes, when I finished this weeks reading I realized that.

I may be wrong, it has been a lon..."

You're correct. In the booklet that comes with my CD of the play, it is explained that Gavroche is unrelated to the Thernadiers, a deviation from the book, which has him as the Thernadiers' son.