Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Week 7 — Books 12 & 13

Book 12 includes: Iphigenia, Rumor, Achilles & Cycnus, Caenis/Caenus, The Battle with the Centaurs, Nestor is Asked Why He Omitted Hercules

Book 13 includes: The Dispute Between Ajax and Ulysses over Achilles’ Armor, The Fall of Troy, The Sacrifice of Polyxena, The Discovery of Polydorus, Aurora & Memnon, The Voyage of Aeneas, The Daughters of Anius, The Voyage of Aeneas Resumed, The Story of Galatea, The Song of Polyphemus, The Transformation of Acis, Glaucus & Scylla

The stories in Books 12 and 13 are generally organized around the saga of the Trojan War and the beginning of the Aeneid and are told from a Roman/Trojan perspective. Violence and brutality predominate, and the Greeks do not usually come off looking particularly heroic. Ulysses may win Achilles’ shield, but his victory is for cunning and trickery and not for feats of bravery. There are some love stories, but per usual, they don’t turn out too well either. The Song of Polyphemus gives some insight into the Cyclops’ point of view and a vision of his rural paradise before the arrival of Ulysses.

While these stories are mythic, they also often convey some truths. Did any stories in particular ring true for you this week?

And how might transformation factor into the stories of the Trojan War and the Aeneid overall?

I haven't finished it yet, but overall, by my filling, Ovid more inspired by 'rivalry' with Homer than metamorphoses. These books fill quite different from most of the previous; it may be translation, of course, but the difference is quite apparent to me.

Susan wrote: "The Song of Polyphemus gives some insight into the Cyclops’ point of view and a vision of his rural paradise before the arrival of Ulysses"

A vision indeed is bucolic, but the consequences of his passion are a good forewarning for what would happen at the arrival of Ulysses. I don't see any justice in this, but such a character couldn't have a less tragic arc.

I really loved the part that Ajax says that he is not verbose nor good with words and spend hundreds of lines in a long poetic rant.

Rafael wrote: "I really loved the part that Ajax says that he is not verbose nor good with words and spend hundreds of lines in a long poetic rant."

Yes, it's quite a fun part, though it is almost a trope in poems.

Alexey wrote: "I haven't finished it yet, but overall, by my filling, Ovid more inspired by 'rivalry' with Homer than metamorphoses. These books fill quite different from most of the previous; it may be translati..."

I agree there’s a different feeling in these books. Some of it may be the organization around the epics of Homer and Virgil, but I wondered about the rivalry/competitiveness, too. The battle with the centaurs in particular reminded me of the Iliad where every death is described differently. Is Ovid showing off a bit in this section? I thought he might be.

Rafael wrote: "I really loved the part that Ajax says that he is not verbose nor good with words and spend hundreds of lines in a long poetic rant."

Lol. The debate between Ajax and Ulysses was one of my favorite sections, too. I was rooting for Ajax to win, but the Greeks went with the man they needed in the future for his cleverness (or that’s how I interpreted it)

Indeed. In The Divine Comedy, Ulisses is at the circle (bolggia) of the deceitful, right?

Rafael wrote: "Indeed. In The Divine Comedy, Ulisses is at the circle (bolggia) of the deceitful, right?"

Yes, indeed. Good point