Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

Miss Pym Disposes (Scotland, 1946) 238 pgs

It is a psychological mystery novel about Miss Lucy Pym, a guest lecturer at an all-women's physical training college, who becomes involved in a murder case after witnessing a student try to cheat and then a suspicious "fatal accident" occurs.
The mystery unfolds as Miss Pym grapples with the psychological undercurrents of the college, including jealousy and rivalry among the students and staff.

The novel is known for its psychological depth and unique setting in a physical training college, though it differs from typical detective novels by focusing on a moral dilemma rather than pure detection, according to Playing Detective.

Anyone thinking about reading this one and sharing your thoughts?

I’ve started reading this. I like the setting of a women’s college.

I'm in for a reread!

Kathy wrote: "I’ve started reading this. I like the setting of a women’s college."

That is interesting. Wasnt aware

Rosemarie it must have been a pretty good four star for a re-read!
Looking forward to your thoughts too.

Lesle wrote: "Anyone thinking about reading this one and sharing your thoughts?"

I am. I have read Tey's The Daughter of Time which I thought was just an adequate mystery, being too static with the only action consisting of characters' mouths moving in dialogue. But I saw enough there to give Josephine Tey another look.

So I just started Miss Pym Disposes and, although I had to read the first chapter twice to clarify the relationships in my mind, I think it will be a satisfying read. I do seem to like boarding-school set stories.

Ive read a few comments on it and it is mentioned a couple of times to be humerous and thought provoking story.

Also it is a very traditional mystery one that is likely to mystify us several times over on its way to a brilliant conclusion.

I've finished this book. About halfway through I went back to see if this was really a mystery because it's not the usual crime then someone solving the crime. It's more about human nature, moral dilemmas, a person's character, how well you can know someone, and other psychological issues.

The first half dragged for me (rating 2), but then I became attached to the characters and Miss Pym's thinking. The last quarter of the book I'd rate a 5.

This book is worth reading and discussing!

Kathy wrote: "I've finished this book. About halfway through I went back to see if this was really a mystery because it's not the usual crime then someone solving the crime. It's more about human nature, moral d..."

I'm at the 65% mark and am liking the set-up so far. I am enjoying this book for the issues that Kathy points out. Except for the difficulty is separating out the schoolgirls I pointed out in a previous post, this book has been smooth reading and hasn't dragged for me.
I think I am enjoying it because it's not a standard mystery. I'd probably be happy with the book if no "mystery" event occurred., although Kathy's 5 star rating for the last quarter bodes well.

Kathy wrote: " This book is worth reading and discussing"

I whole-heartedly agree, although it doesn't really need discussing to be a worthwhile read.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, Brian. I'll be reading this again as I'll be using this for the book club I am in and have to host in December. So overall I very much liked the book.

Per our Resident Librarian I have started using Library of Congress to help determine Genre of a book.

Miss Pym disposes / Josephine Tey.
By: Tey, Josephine, 1896 or 1897-1952
Published: Collier Books, New York, 1988, c1948
Edition: 1st Collier Books ed.
Genre: Psychological fictionDetective and mystery stories
Subjects: Women psychologists--FictionEngland--Fiction

Wikipedia
Stand-alone mystery
Miss Pym Disposes (1946)

It's definitely those two genres, Lesle. Psychological fiction and mystery. There is no detective, but Miss Pym has her eyes open for anything that might happen.

Kathy wrote: "The first half dragged for me (rating 2), but then I became attached to the characters and Miss Pym's thinking. The last quarter of the book I'd rate a 5..."

Kathy are you thinking like 3.5 stars?

Thanks for clearing up the no detective part.

Lesle wrote: "Kathy wrote: "The first half dragged for me (rating 2), but then I became attached to the characters and Miss Pym's thinking. The last quarter of the book I'd rate a 5..."

Kathy are you thinking l..."

A solid 4 stars.

I'm in the second half of the book and things are really picking up. I vaguely remember the ending, but I could be wrong!

That was quite the ending!

Rosemarie wrote: "That was quite the ending!"

I didn't see that coming.

I have finished think all the labels of it as being chiefly a mystery or detective story are misleading. None of the mystery comes until the 3/4 point of the story and even then, the climactic mystery resolution is really subordinate to the moral dilemma the protagonist faces.

Yes, it can be considered a mystery just as another boarding school tale with a tragic event Picnic at Hanging Rock can be categorized as a mystery. But to me, the portrayal of the relations of students and faculty at an unusual boarding school is more prominent to the story than the climactic mystery element. So is the aforementioned moral dilemma that the main protagonist faces.

I would categorize this as a boarding school tale where a major tragic event happens. I thought this story has more in common with the coming-of-age story in A Separate Peace than with any mystery by Agatha Christie or Dorothy Sayers. Actually, A Separate Peace does have a mystery (view spoiler)[ Why did Finny fall from the tree? T (hide spoiler)] and the tragic event in both books are similar too.(view spoiler)[ both involve causing someone to be injured in a fall that is not intended to kill. The intent in A Separate Peace is more ambiguous though. (hide spoiler)]

I thought this book was really good. I came to appreciate the title too. A 4+ star novel, borderline 5 stars.

Kathy wrote: "Rosemarie wrote: "That was quite the ending!"
I didn't see that coming."

I did (kind of) see that coming because (view spoiler)[ I felt the book needed something extra in order for it to earn any degree of mystery designation. The manner of ending did accomplish that. It also made more sense in context of the book's previous characterizations. (hide spoiler)] It worked for me.

It’s interesting to read the comments here. I must have missed the point. I’ve read other books by the same author but haven’t particularly enjoyed them & hoped this one would be different. For most of this book I was ready to abandon it. I know she was setting the scene, but I was bored. Yes, the end was clever. But I think that this confirmed that I don’t like this author’s books. Sorry.

I kind of agree. She is not my cup of tea!

Tey works for me also. I've read four of her books, rating two of them 4 stars - Miss Pym Disposes and The Daughter of Time. Looking back I'm surprise I gave Daughter of Time four stars. I don't have fond memories of reading it.

I did rate A Shilling for Candles three stars, although I barely remember the book. It features the detective Alan Grant.

I gave the Alan Grant mystery The Franchise Affair five stars. It was a compelling mystery (with a twist!) and very well done.

I plan on starting this one tomorrow. Late in the month I know, but I had to wait a while for the library hold.

Kathy wrote: "Looking back I'm surprise I gave Daughter of Time four stars. I don't have fond memories of reading it...."

That is the one I read that just didnt care for. I didnt even finish it. Which is hard for me not to do.

I thought about trying to find it in PG and see how I felt about it. I dislike the one and done with that author.

Lesle wrote: " She is not my cup of tea!"

Apparently she is not your cup of Tey, either.

Brian E wrote: "Apparently she is not your cup of Tey, either."

Haha!

The Singing Sands is good too. I've read all of her books at least once.
Brat Farrar is a stand alone and quite different from her other novels.

I'm at 10% now - so far light and entertaining with a comic flavor. Not a page turner by any stretch but entertaining nevertheless.

At 17% now:

One thing I'm finding antiquated (and not in a good way) is the way that Miss Pym jumps to sweeping judgements based on aspects of personal appearance and regional origin. Whether Scottish, Irish, Northern, etc; all of these things are taken as determiners of psychology and disposition. And for sure culture has an impact, but not in such a monolithic way. I don't think whether people have high brows or long noses should be a way of judging people's character.

Miss Pym and other characters are just rightly reflecting the prejudices of their time here, and it's not reasonable to expect people of the past to hold modern ideas . . . but to the extent that the author Tey shares these prejudices, it can date the work a bit. It's not clear yet if she shares them or is just correctly reflecting / satirizing them, but my ears are pricked up and I'm listening for those nuances as this unfolds.

I wonder if the way she reflected these common wisdoms of her time accounted for some of her popularity?

Anyway, still entertained, but as others have commented, there's quite a long lead-up to the larger events that I assume will eventually happen.

At 41% now:

Still enjoying it, though the long lead-up to the "mystery" continues.

I'm reading a hardcover from the library, but I'm also listening to portions of it on audio through Audible. I noticed something interesting today. The Audible recording has some editing to soften some questionable/sensitive content.

Just one example:

In the book (I'm assuming this is the original text), Miss Lux tells Lucy about Barbara Rouse, "But she works like a black." In the Audible copy, this is changed to, "But she works hard."

There's at least a few other changes like this that I caught.

I'm curious now if this editing was requested by Elizabeth MacKintosh (Josephine Tey) herself? Or perhaps this was requested by her heirs? It reminds me of the sequence of title changes for Christie's book And Then There Were None, which started with a more eyebrow raising title.

The edits are minor and don't affect the story in any way. I was just curious about how they came about.

I can see benefits to leaving the text as is, in reflecting the prevailing historical attitudes of that time so people don't forget what the culture was like then, but I can also see the benefits in edits. If I were an author and later regretted some things I had written in an earlier work, I could well see asking the publisher for some minor edits such as this.

Greg that is a point I had never really put much thought into.
Interesting the difference.
Im not one to listen to books as my mind tends to wonder about things I need to do and get done. I do not even think I could do it while driving as it would be too big of a distraction. I tend to re-read sections a lot. Sometimes I think I need to-to make sure I am getting the point or not reading it incorrectly.

Christie's original title was a shock the first time I saw it.

It is hard to tell about those kind of changes and it makes me wonder if there is a difference in the First Edition to say the 12th printing...if minor changes like that are made?

Lesle wrote: "It is hard to tell about those kind of changes and it makes me wonder if there is a difference in the First Edition to say the 12th printing...if minor changes like that are made?"

I am wondering that too Lesle.

As far as audiobooks, my mind wanders too much to listen to audiobooks at home. I can only listen to them during two specific activities. Exercising on the treadmill, I can devote full attention, but it has to be something without too many characters and something where I don't care about making notes. Usually for the treadmill, I listen to lighter, simpler books.

The car is the other place because I have a long commute. I have driven that route so many times that I don't have trouble. I always have a physical copy too though, and when I arrive, I go back and look through what I listened to and make notes. Even complicated books, I don't have much trouble on the car ride. If I want to look at something, I can always pull over. Definitely, when I listen to audiobooks, my drive takes a little longer, but it's worth it. I just can't stand driving 1 to 1.5 hours a day and not having anything interesting to listen to for all that time. :)

Greg wrote: "I just can't stand driving 1 to 1.5 hours a day..."

Oh my goodness Greg! That is a drive I would hate. 2 to 3 hours a day driving!

When I worked for the Board of Elections it was a 15 min drive.
Than I switched to the Hospital and it was 5 min!! That was the best! But now is even better. I do not have to go anywhere :)

Lesle wrote: "Greg wrote: "I just can't stand driving 1 to 1.5 hours a day..."

Oh my goodness Greg! That is a drive I would hate. 2 to 3 hours a day driving!

When I worked for the Board of Elections it was a 1..."

I wish I was as close to work as you! But the 1.5 hours is for both directions. It's about 45 minutes each way.

Well 45 min is much better than what I was thinking Greg lol!

"It is hard to tell about those kind of changes and it makes me wonder if there is a difference in the First Edition to say the 12th printing...if minor changes like that are made?"

I've a couple of speculation, rather than proven answers.

I think it is/was common for there to be minor changes from edition to edition.

But
I have since learned that some authors, Tolstoy for example had so many re-writes, and both his wife and editor made changes such that there may not be such a thing as a final never to be changed version. I think this was often the case as books went from monthly serial, to the published book, and then more changes as public reaction sets in. (Thomas Hardy, I think)

In the case of older plays, there may not be an original manuscript just versions as re written along the way over the years and as handled by censors, directors and etc. Even in modern plays there may be a variety of editions as some combination of the original play write and later , take your pick translators, directors and such made changes that intentionally or not became the accepted version. Neil Simon writes about having to re write his first Broadway show something like 20 times between first on the road opening and what they ultimately saw in New York

But

In the last few years I have seen what looks to be a marketing gimmick of digging up some much older version of a novel and calling it the Original. Esp bad in the case of a version never intended for publication. There is a newly published "original" version of War and Peace. Some people say they love it, I think is stinks and reeks of being a draft rather than an intended edition.

But

I may be wrong on all counts.

Greg, 45 minutes each way isn't bad at all, since I live in Toronto and the traffic is notoriously bad in the downtown area and pretty well any non-residential roads at rush hour.
I'm never had a long commute but my husband did. He retired in 2016 and doesn't miss the drive. It was also about 45 minutes, against the traffic, when he started working there in 2001. But it got longer and longer each year.

I can't do audio books since my mind tends to drift, but I can listen to a short story on youtube, especially scary stories. I do need to look at the screen, which generally has scenes from the story. Sometimes it's the only way to have access to obscure stories for free.

Phodrick, I read Tolstoy's preferred version of War and Peace and enjoyed the style-it was very readable.
Sometimes new translators try too hard.
I also don't like it when books are updated for the wrong reason, which in this case is to sell more books.

Rosemarie wrote: "Phodrick, I read Tolstoy's preferred version of War and Peace and enjoyed the style-it was very readable.
Sometimes new translators try too hard.
I also don't like it when books are updated for the..."

This a discussion for another place. I do have to ask:
From where did you get that this or that version was his preferred?
I may have missed something but the version to which I refer is War and Peace: Original Version. Just checking to see if we mean the same one.

More related to this discussion, there are what looks like two editions listing as the original version.

I'll answer your question in the thread Rosemarie I have a question. That's where we discuss general literature questions.

Greg I kind of retired.
I was just going to take a few months off during summer and find a part time job that I liked doing...where I wanted to be at something fun. I actually had talked to the Director at our local Humane Society.
But the situation with my Son's girlfriend who has 3 Sons and the last two were in a Daycare that was charging her almost $500 a month. It was either me help with the boys or me keep helping buying groceries and all car maintenance.
Im an at home Grandma! lol

Lesle wrote: "Greg I kind of retired.
I was just going to take a few months off during summer and find a part time job that I liked doing...where I wanted to be at something fun. I actually had talked to the Dir..."

I think it's lovely that you can help your son and your grandchildren like that! Wishing you and your grandchildren a wonderful Halloween!

I'm racing through now, at 68%. The book really picked up for me about halfway through. I'm starting to quite like it!

I really like the subtle and conflicting ways that the different characters feel about and react to Rouse and Mary Innis.

Early on, Miss Pym, the "Nut Tart," and others show the general prejudice in favor of good looks in young women in the culture of the time. And it's hard not to feel for Rouse in her plainness as so much of the judgements placed upon these girls are filtered through the lens of physical appearance.

When Miss Pym says that she "prided herself on her analysis of facial characteristics" in Chapter 4 and goes on to describe how useful it is to recognize the significance of "eyebrows beginning low over the nose" as a sign of a "conniving mind," that immediately made me roll my eyes. And later in the paragraph, supposedly, "long nosed people" are more likely to stay "to listen" than short nosed people"? Really? Well, I know that I would be pretty annoyed if someone decided that I wasn't a good listener based on the length of my nose, or worse yet, if someone thought I was lying because I happened to be born with a certain configuration of eyebrows!

But now, as the book gets further, the limitations of these snap judgements are becoming much more apparent. And it seems that the limitations of them are part of the point.

Henrietta sees unpleasant aspects of Mary Innis' character that Miss Pym was blind to, like (view spoiler)[her sense of the school as a "secret purgatory" and her scorn for the other students (hide spoiler)]. But Henrietta is also blinded to (view spoiler)[some of Rouse's worst faults, like her desperation and dishonesty (hide spoiler)]. Likewise, Miss Tey is able to see aspects of Rouse's character that Henrietta is blind to, but Miss Tey misses some of the good aspects of Rouse too. Both see actual truths the other misses, but they are blinded by illusions as well. I like that Tey is seeing the cultural assumptions at play and letting it be complex. The cultural assumptions themselves can shape character too, as the people on the receiving end have to contend with how they are perceived, whether fairly or not. There are bound to be insecurities and resentments, based on the perceptions themselves. Judgements are not so easy as the culture thinks, and neither judging with or against the common wisdom is helpful at getting to the whole truth. This feels right to me; cultural expectations are hard to disentangle from, whether we are reacting with or against them, they distort our natural perceptions in complicated ways.

And both Miss Pym and Henrietta are not acting out of only one thing either. Several conflicting influences act on each of them; the result is a complex moral quandary.

I can see now why this book is considered a "classic." There's much more going on under the surface than it seems. It's just that the book takes an extraordinarily long time to get off the ground. It's only at about halfway through that these complexities start to surface and grow. And now as they have surfaced, I'm finding it almost a page turner; I want to know how (view spoiler)[Innis reacts after the blow of losing her expected place. And I want to know how Rouse will handle what she has been given too (hide spoiler)].

Greg wrote: "these complexities start to surface and grow. And now as they have surfaced, I'm finding it almost a page turner; I want to know how (view spoiler)...."

Glad to see your starting to enjoy the read Greg. That is something I think is great about classics. It means something different to each of the readers.

Kathy wrote: "The first half dragged for me (rating 2), but then I became attached to the characters and Miss Pym's thinking. The last quarter of the book I'd rate a 5."

I completely agree with this Kathy! I'm getting into the last quarter now. The second half had much more depth than the first. Getting quite gripping!

Looking forward to finally opening your spoilers Brian!

Glad you’re enjoying the book, Greg.

Thanks Lesle and Kathy; I'm on the final 40 pages now. Wow, this book just gets better and better! I'm not sure even what the "right" course is at this point. I find myself thinking that there were so many missed opportunities to avoid getting to this point. If only (view spoiler)[the news could have been broken in a less shocking way, or if only Miss Pym had not thrown away the cheat book, or if only Henrietta could have softened her pride even late and helped Innis find another post. If only Innis had not been so singularly focused with a family of less means, if only Routh had not lost her parents and been brought up by other relatives. Would Routh have cheated if she were not so insecure and driven and without parents or resources? It took many unlucky and bad turns to get to this moment, and I suppose this is usually the case when basically "good" people do harm. Both Innis and Routh are imperfect, but neither of them would have intended an end like this. (hide spoiler)]

Tey is not for me either, even though I enjoyed two of Alan Grant mysteries. I didn’t read this. I felt I've read enough of her.

Piyangie there is too much out there Author wise that I wish to read and of course the new that I have yet to find.