Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

Looks like it is time to evaluate the ~1970's emergence of Conan-clones: like Thongor Against the Godsby Lin Carter...Brak the Barbarian by John Jakes...or Kothar Barbarian Swordsman by Gardner F. Fox.

To stir the pot a bit, I create a poll for fun.
which clonan is the best clone of conan?
Feel welcome to write-in additional clones...

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...

My write-in: Elak of Atlantis by Henry Kuttner.

Joseph wrote: "My write-in: Elak of Atlantis by Henry Kuttner."

I like Elak, but haven't read the others to vote for/against. I've read most of REH of course... so if a newby-Clonan-reader wanted to choose only one clonan to read...which one should it be?

For instance, I have Brak the Barbarian and Kothar of the Magic Sword. But not much time, One better than the other?
(To Joe's point, I guess I also have Elak of Atlantis)

S.E. wrote: "I like Elak, but haven't read the others to vote for/against. I've read most of REH of course... so if a newby-Clonan-reader wanted to choose only one clonan to read...which one should it be?"

Honestly, I'd say whichever you can lay hands on most easily. But if I had to choose, I'd probably say Kothar -- Fox is definitely a better writer than Carter; I haven't had much exposure to Brak.

So far, I have to say Jakes' Brak is the best clone, especially in the short stories. But I still have so many I have yet to read, this could easily change...

I like the term 'Clonan'! Not sure I can suggest alternatives beyond, um, Thrud the Barbarian, but that was only a brief monthly comic strip in Dragon Magazine.

There is a series of Ronan the Barbarian written by some British TV comedy writer.

Rob, speaking of other media, I think it imperative that all members watch a video on the bad movie clones of DeathStalker. They had awesome covers by Boris Vallejo, but were the worst of all clones. I watch this review a couple times a year and find it hilarious therapy. Better than the movies themsevles.

I have the movie review embedded on my blog: Sword & Sorcery Movie Trends

A direct link is:
http://cinemassacre.com/2010/03/13/de...

I'm 1/3rd done with Brak the Barbarian. Blatant echoes of REH: anti-civilation themes, barbarian from the icelands now wandering. Nice overtones of Lovecraftian horror blended with some real cheese... Brak is walking in a tundra, a freakin tundra, totally naked except for a loincloth? WTH?

They made 'em tough back in the day!
It is a fantasy tale, after all ...;)

S.E. wrote: "Looks like it is time to evaluate the ~1970's emergence of Conan-clones: like Thongor Against the Godsby Lin Carter...Brak the Barbarian by [author:John ..."

I would actually consider the Conan in the pastiches written by L. Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter a form of Clonan. I haven't read those since I had the Ace paperbacks in highschool. I'm curious to go back and read a couple of the stories and see how they hold up.

S.E. wrote: "Rob, speaking of other media, I think it imperative that all members watch a video on the bad movie clones of DeathStalker. They had awesome covers by Boris Vallejo, but were the worst of all clon..."

Those films are awful! The fact that they used recycled footage reminds me of Lorimar's penchant for doing the same in the original Battlestar Galactica series. Oh well. I won't be seeking these movies out but it was fun watching Mike Matei's commentary on the Deathstalker movies. :)

Greg wrote: "S.E. wrote: "Rob, speaking of other media, I think it imperative that all members watch a video on the bad movie clones of DeathStalker. They had awesome covers by Boris Vallejo, but were the wors..."

Greg, his review is better than the movies. I like to watch it to laugh and remind myself why it is important to make quality art. The fact the movies existed is unfortunately a testament to "successful" marketing. The Boris Vallejo art implies the movies will rock; once rented/purchased, it's too late to return it.

S.E. wrote: "Greg wrote: "S.E. wrote: "Rob, speaking of other media, I think it imperative that all members watch a video on the bad movie clones of DeathStalker. They had awesome covers by Boris Vallejo, but ..."

Yes, it's true that the posters for the movies were good - so misleading! I liked some of Roger Corman's shlock horror movies (particularly the zombie stuff) but much of what he made is terrible!

Robert wrote: "S.E. wrote: "Looks like it is time to evaluate the ~1970's emergence of Conan-clones: like Thongor Against the Godsby Lin Carter...Brak the Barbarian by ..."

I tended to prefer Howard's stories to those of Carter and Sprague de Camp in Conan, which reminds me that I need to write up my review of this book - it's already been six months since I finished it.

I read an Imaro short story by Charles R. Saunders in an anthology once, and really enjoyed it. I kept meaning to look out for some others

And if you have a few minutes spare, and need cheering up, don't forget Grignr the Barbarian in The Eye of Argon by Jim Theis

I read Kothar: Barbarian Swordsman a while back, mostly because it was referred to as an early influence on Gary Gygax (I think on the creation of the Lich). Enjoyable read but quite forgettable in retrospect.

Would Conan novels, written by authors other than Howard, apply to this Group Read? I'm thinking of trying Conan and the Emerald Lotus...

Periklis wrote: "I read Kothar: Barbarian Swordsman a while back, mostly because it was referred to as an early influence on Gary Gygax (I think on the creation of the Lich). Enjoyable read but quite..."

Hey Periklis! Pastiche Conans are arguably part of the "clonans" scope, though most think of "clonans" as being non-Conan Barbarians modeled after the original. As per usual rules, anything close that spurs discussion is fair game. Are you reading John C. Hocking's Conan now?

S.E. wrote: "Periklis wrote: "I read Kothar: Barbarian Swordsman a while back, mostly because it was referred to as an early influence on Gary Gygax (I think on the creation of the Lich). Enjoyab..."

I've had the book sitting on my shelve ever since I'd discover Hocking's writing on Black Gate and Howard Andrew Jones' quote:

"If you were to ask Conan fans who wrote the best Conan story after Robert E. Howard, a lot of people would point to John Hocking. ... it is Hocking, above all, who consistently makes people's favorites list. ... Hocking may well be one of the best hopes readers of sword and sorcery have today."

I don't mean in no way to sidetrack the Group Read and its fruitful discussion. It just feels like a fast-paced novel that would help me re-connect with the genre after a long time...

Periklis wrote: "S.E. wrote: "Periklis wrote: "I read Kothar: Barbarian Swordsman a while back, mostly because it was referred to as an early influence on Gary Gygax (I think on the creation of the L..."

I'm unfamiliar with Hocking, and pastiche Conan's in general. I'd love to learn more via your comments. Please read Conan and the Emerald Lotus while its muse holds you in its snare, and return to share!

I am reading John Jakes's Brak the Barbarian. Even though I am a big supporter of Ohio authors (John Jakes lived in Kettering OH), I'm not overwhelmed yet. Story-1- was decent enough. Story-2 was lack luster in many ways.

I have a copy of Kothar of the Magic Sword in queue... and just ordered Thongor and the Wizard of Lemuria.

Probably too ambitious a task to read them all ... but in order to vote on the best clonan poll now in sessions, I feel like I need a taste of each one before voting.

Finished Brak the Barbarian. Jake excelled at some horror elements but undermined the fun with some cheeziness (loincloths in all locales...even ice-marshes...and he must ride a pony, always a pony--better to not walk for six months when you can do farm work saving up for a freakin' pony) and a lack of motivation (Brak himself doesn't know why he must go to Khurdisan, his self-declared prupose in life...but he'd leave a beautiful Queen and sacrifice his life to do so).

Review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Currently reading The Fortunes of Brak, which is a collection of five short stories. Devils in the Walls was ok, just starting Ghoul's Garden now; I think Brak works best in the short story format, as Howard's Conan tales prove as well.

S.wagenaar please report on the number of ponies Brak rides on. I'm curious if that important theme persists :)

Yep, ponies in both tales! Not to be confused with the popular pets of today- no doubt modeled after the tough, wild horses used by the Mongols of our own history that were often referred to as "ponies".

Yep, ponies in both tales! Not to be confused with the popular pets of today- no doubt modeled after the tough, wild horses used by the Mongols of our own history that were often referred to as "ponies".

S.wagenaar wrote: "Yep, ponies in both tales! Not to be confused with the popular pets of today- no doubt modeled after the tough, wild horses used by the Mongols of our own history that were often referred to as "po..."

No rainbows or glitter, then?

Brak; the first "Brony"? It bears consideration...

Not Brak, but a related "clonan" on a pony seems appropriate to share:



http://zedew.deviantart.com/

In 2010, DeviantArt's Zedew produced "My Little Death Dealer," which posits Frank Frazetta as a secret bronie [source = Boingboing]

Frank Frazetta's Death Dealer. He is the main character in a four book series written by James Silke. I have the first two, but only read the first one. Pretty good, a little padded out, but S&S for sure. Worth tracking down imho.

S.E. wrote: ""My Little Death Dealer," which posits Frank Frazetta ..."

That's genius. Now I want to see Frazetta's Ice Warrior in a chariot being towed by the Care Bears ;-)

S.wagenaar wrote: "Brak; the first "Brony"? It bears consideration..."

LOL

S.E. wrote: "Not Brak, but a related "clonan" on a pony seems appropriate to share:



http://zedew.deviantart.com/

In 2010, DeviantArt's Zedew produced "My Little Death Dealer," which posits Frank Frazetta ..."

:O Scary....

I finished reading Blade #21, Champion of the Gods. For those not familiar with this British series, Richard Blade is a kind of James Bond and Conan mix. He's suave and civilized, but capable of great barbarism in battle when he needs to be. There's a bunch of books in this series. I've read a dozen or so and have a few more laying around. Some are more SF, but a lot are really heroic fantasy. This one fits that mold. Here's the link to my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Charles wrote: "I finished reading Blade #21, Champion of the Gods. For those not familiar with this British series, Richard Blade is a kind of James Bond and Conan mix. He's suave and civilized, but capable of gr..."

I have a vague recollection of seeing this series in bookshops when I was a kid. Haven't seen a single copy of a Blade book in many years though - not even in a secondhand store.

I bought about 15 of them years ago at a book sale. Haven't really looked since then. I think I got a few off book mooch a couple of years back. I'm sure you could find them on abebooks or probably Amazon.

Yeah that's true - I could probably buy some online. But I'll have a look in some local secondhand shops first and see what I can find. There must be a few around, though they're probably not prominently displayed as they are a bit dated.

I've been making progress with Conan and the Emerald Lotus. Not a Clonan but a very good Conan pastiche. I became aware of it through Howard Andrew Jones' writings.
John C. Hocking writes a very Howardian Conan, hinting at the things that "make" Conan without overwriting his protagonist. He also puts Howard's technique of switching between characters and settings between chapters while driving the plot forward. So far I'd compare the book with Howard's stories, "Queen of the Black Coast" and "Black Colossus".

P.S. I'd love to read Oron as part of this group read next...

Oron is great

Sounds like Oron will be in the next poll :)

I have the first Oron novel on my shelf as well. I have yet to stumble over any of the further adventures of Oron in my used book store crawls...

I believe there are 4 books in the Oron series.

I found an old PDF copy of The Sorcerer's Shadow that I have on my laptop, but I think it's a standalone, no...?

Yes, "Sorcerer's Shadow" is a standalone but set in the same world as the Oron books. I thought Sorcerer's shadow was even better than the Oron books. It's my favorite David C. Smith work. The Oron books I have are, #1) Oron (a novel) #2) The Sorcerer's Shadow, #3) Mosutha's Magic (Novel), #4, The Valley of Ogrum (Novel), and #5 The Ghost Army, (a collection of 5 short stories)

Thanks Charles, I will keep an eye out for those titles. Gotta give Shadow a go, but not a big fan of PDF on computer reading :)

Yeah, I have it in paperback with a pretty neat cover.

Well, just finished Quest of the Dark Lady, by Quinn Reade. Pretty good, although Wulf, the hero, was more knightly than barbaric, in my opinion. Actually Reen, the robber/thief and love interest for Wulf, was more like Conan with her fierce swordplay and cursing! She was more interesting than Wulf, despite not being the main protagonist. Still, a fun, simple read and a pretty good adventure tale wrapped up in under 130 pages. That is another reason why I like these older novels; short and sweet!

Periklis wrote: "I've been making progress with Conan and the Emerald Lotus. Not a Clonan but a very good Conan pastiche. I became aware of it through Howard Andrew Jones' writings.
John C. Hocking w..."

Added Oron to my TBR shelf!

I think I have 2 copies of Mosutha's Magic. Perhaps I can send one to a member as a gift. Any takers? I should probably hold off a few weeks and offer this as part of a group read.

I read Quest of the Dark Lady quite a few years ago. I think I reviewed it here but I don't remember much about it other than that I thought it was a bit better than the run of the mill Clonan

Hey S.E. I wouldn't mind a copy, but it would be too expensive to ship it to me in Canada ;)
Perhaps someone closer to home needs a copy, anyone...?