THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

I hope this is not a repost...but I am looking for a solid book on the Battle of the Atlantic. I've picked up some primary source stuff, mostly British, but I was looking for something more in a narrative form....does anyone have suggestions?

Thanks!

Hi Brent,

I read quite a few good books on this subject some years back. From what I can remember these were some of the better accounts:

"The Atlantic Campaign: The Great Stuggle at Sea, 1939-1945" by Dan van der Vat
The Atlantic Campaign

"The Battle of the Atlantic" by by Andrew Williams


"Convoy: The Greatest U-boat Battle of the War" by Martin Middlebrook


"The Battle of the Atlantic" by John Costello & Terry Hughes


"Bitter Ocean: The Battle of the Atlantic, 1939-1945" by David Fairbank White (I haven't read this book yet)


I will do a search in my library and see what other books I can find that may be relevant. I hope this helps.

Brent wrote: "I hope this is not a repost...but I am looking for a solid book on the Battle of the Atlantic. I've picked up some primary source stuff, mostly British, but I was looking for something more in a n..."

Another one that may cover the subject is:

"Black May: The Epic Story of the Allies Defeat of the German U-Boats in May 1943" by Michael Gannon

One more book that I have just found that may help is:

Arctic Convoys, 1941-45 by Richard Woodman

In addition to the fine selections noted above, I'd recommend the volume of Samuel Eliot Morison's 14 vol. Hist of US Naval Operations in WW II. Can't remember which volume deals with the Battle of the Atlantic but I think it's this one: History of US Naval Operations in WWII 1 Battle of the Atlantic 9/39-5/43

I read through the whole set in high school non-stop. They are terrific.

I'll second the motion of Gannon. It's an excellent point of view, well-written, with a unique point of view.

If you are in the mood for an "Everything you ever wanted to know about every U-Boat commander", try the Clay Blair pair: HITLER'S U-BOAT WAR. It's not as good as SILENT VICTORY but if you are looking for information, this is pretty thorough

Thank you all for your suggestions! I will be sure and let you know what I find!

Here's a revival of the Battle of the Atlantic thread with a recent acquisition which recognizes the great contribution provided by the Canadian Navy to the defeat of the U-boat threat. I don't think my friends to the North get the credit they deserve. Read almost any history of the B of A and the Canadian Navy was on the scene when it mattered. I look forward to reading:

Corvettes Canada: Convoy Veterans of World War II Tell Their True Stories by Mac Johnston

Manray9 I wholeheartedly agree. I own a couple of official and semi-official histories on the RCN and their contribution and sacrifice is clear and as you say not recognised by the many.

U-Boat Commander: A Periscope View of the Battle of the Atlantic

Hirschfeld: The Secret Diary Of A U Boat

Pursuit The Chase and Sinking of the Bismarck

I found these facinating accounts to be highly informative. Among some of the revelations is a U-Boat captain describing the oft-mentioned rumour of 'packs of u-boats' roaming the ocean, when in fact it was rare to have more than 12 boats on patrol at any one time.
The story of the Bismarck chase and destruction is a common and fascinating one, and 'Pursuit' nails it in fine style. Written by a sailor who was part of that pursuit it describes first hand the uncertainty, the waiting, the guessing, and the sudden overwhelming violence of a naval battle with one of the most feared German battleships.

Thanks for posting these titles Kenneth, which I am sure some members will explore them further.

My review of The Battle of the Atlantic: How the Allies Won the War is up: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Good review Jonny, thanks for sharing with the group.

I'm almost finished with Brian Lavery's The Last Big Gun: At War & at Sea with HMS Belfast. It's my second book by Lavery who is Curator Emeritus of the Nation Maritime Museum in Greenwich, UK. I have an eye on another of his books --

River-Class Frigates.

The River-class ships, along with the Flower-class corvettes, were important pieces in the Battle of the Atlantic. They weren't as glamorous as the big-gun battle wagons and cruisers, but they were the workhorses of the U-boat war. Quite a few were built in Canada and operated by the Royal Canadian Navy. HMCS MAGOG was escorting a convoy in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in October of '44 when she was torpedoed by U-1223. The torpedo severed 65 feet off her stern. She made it, under, tow, to Quebec City. That's quite a testament to good damage control procedures in the Canadian Navy.

The Osprey and the Sea Wolf: The Battle of the Atlantic 1942

In 1942, German U-Boats sent over 300 ships and 5000 seamen to the bottom of the ocean off the coast of North America. It took poorly-prepared Americans most of the year to develop an effective counter strategy.

In my historical fiction novel published in 2018, a seasoned U-boat commander and a young Mexican-American B-25 pilot engage in a deadly dance of war at sea and struggle with issues of love, honor, betrayal and racism on the home front.

The book is available on Amazon and Kindle and can be ordered by local bookstores through Ingram Spark.

Hello, my name is Brian Walter. I am the author of the book, The Longest Campaign. The book is currently out in the United Kingdom and should be released in the United States within the next month. It is also available on Kindle. Here are some details regarding the scope and benefits of the book:

Recounting the finest hour of Britain’s long and illustrious maritime heritage, the book provides a complete, balanced and detailed accounting of the activities, results and relevance of Britain’s maritime struggle in the Atlantic and waters off Northwest Europe during World War II. Although arguably less ostentatious in its execution than the concurrent naval conflicts underway in the Pacific and Mediterranean, this campaign constituted the war’s premier maritime struggle in terms of its size, duration and relevance and was the essential catalyst for the overall Allied victory.

More than just another retelling of the U-boat scourge, The Longest Campaign reveals all aspects of this colossal struggle in which British maritime power helped dissuade invasion, sustained the nation’s logistical needs, degraded German capabilities and fulfilled the army’s support requirements. Numerous other books have been written on the subject, but most have only covered specific periods or aspects of the campaign. By comparison, this book provides appropriate space and attention to all facets of the conflict without undo bias or commentary including numerous events and operations that have generally been overlooked or underreported in other related works.

The result of 30 years of historical study utilizing research from a variety of primary and secondary sources, the book presents a highly detailed account of the maritime war full of facts and data presented in a very readable format. It incorporates extensive specificity regarding the forces involved, results attained and casualties sustained during the various engagements and operations covered. In doing so, it wades through the noise of conflicting data and disinformation to present a concise, accurate and informative narrative.

The book provides unique analysis regarding the role and effectiveness of the British maritime effort including a first ever assessment of British warship losses compared to corresponding victories over the competing Axis navies. In reviewing the conflict’s events and results, the book clearly demonstrates the relevance and effectiveness of the British war effort – both in a general sense and specific to the maritime struggle.

As a former military officer and lifelong student and consumer of military history, I hope this book provides value to all of its readers.

U-505
This action resulted in what I believe was the only Medal of Honor awarded in the Atlantic campaign. If this is not true, please help me read about the others.

Adm Gallery also wrote some light humor Navy books.

I can also recommend The Real Cruel Sea: The Merchant Navy in the Battle of the Atlantic 1939-1943

I have great respect for the efforts of the Canadian Navy in WW II. The service started the war with eleven warships and wound up with a fleet including two escort carriers, light cruisers, 43 destroyers, and dozens of frigates and corvettes. Many of these critical ASW vessels were built in Canadian yards as far apart of New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, and British Columbia. Eventually Canada took responsibility for all ops in the Northwestern Atlantic.

Today I started on --

The Corvette Years: The Lower Deck Story by Edward O'Connor.

It's a collection of personal accounts of Canadian naval ops in WW II as told by the young men below decks.

It sounds like an interesting book MR9, I hope you enjoy it.

From Edward O'Connor's The Corvette Years: The Lower Deck Story.

Murray Laidlaw served aboard HMCS Chicoutimi. He was a farm boy and accustomed to his mother's hearty home-cooking. On a FLOWER-class corvette in the Atlantic the situation was much different. A typical meal was "red lead and bacon" (red lead was the undercoat paint used on ships to inhibit rust). Laidlaw described this culinary masterpiece as lukewarm, watery, canned tomatoes with greasy undercooked bacon. Fresh bread was lost to mold within a few days, so hardtack was common. The Canadian naval hardtack was issued in six-inch biscuits about 1/2 inch thick. Normal men could not bite through them. They were broken up for eating or dunked into tea or coffee to soften.

Aboard Chicoutimi, the victualing dry store (just "the storeroom" in U.S. Navy parlance) was aft and down under the quarterdeck. It was supposed to be locked and dogged down. The dogs were not always seated well. In heavy seas up to four feet of water would be sloshing around the storeroom. The seawater would wash the labels off the cans, so subsequent meals were often surprise concoctions.

The ship received a large wheel of cheese in a wooden box, but the storeroom was full. The Victualing Assistant lashed the cheese to the bottom of the mast on the main deck at the break in the forecastle. As soon as Chicoutimi was underway, she struck heavy weather. The ship and the cheese took pounding from the ocean waves for ten days. Finally the weather moderated and they broke out the cheese. Laidlaw wrote: "I still maintain it was the best Canadian cheddar I've ever tasted. Cured by Atlantic water -- what an advertisement!"

Perhaps he was just hungry?

doesn't seem to be much of an advert for Canadian Cheddar otherwise...

Jonny wrote: "doesn't seem to be much of an advert for Canadian Cheddar otherwise..."

Maybe a ten day bath in saltwater was just what the cheese needed?

Given the "legendary" seahandling of the Flower class, I'm amazed it survived, to be honest.

Jonny wrote: "Given the "legendary" seahandling of the Flower class, I'm amazed it survived, to be honest."

True.

Brian wrote: "

Hello, my name is Brian Walter. I am the author of the book, The Longest Camp..."

I look forward to reading it, having interviewed many U-boat commanders, and Baron Burkard von Muellenheim-Rechberg from the Bismarck.

Phrodrick wrote: "U-505
This action resulted in what I believe was the only Medal of Honor awarded in the Atlantic campaign. If this is not true, please help me read about the others.

Adm Gallery als..."

That is an interesting story. I knew Hans Goebbeler and Thilo Bode, both serving on U-505, but Thilo transferred as first officer to command his own boat just before that patrol, while Hans was captured on the sub.

I am reading the story of the U-505 now. I once had the pleasure of getting a guided tour through the boat. It was both interesting and a little unsettling. Those boats were pretty cramped. And I was in Jr. High when I went through so that is saying a lot.

Twenty Million Tons Under the Sea: The Daring Capture of the U-505

I have been on it also, when I visited Chicago many years ago. Hans Goebeler and his wife Ricki were great. Hans stayed in the USA after the war and became a citizen upon being released from his prison camp. Sadly he died several years ago.

Colin wrote: "Brian wrote: "

Hello, my name is Brian Walter. I am the author of the book, Th..."

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I hope you enjoy the book and find it informative. It sounds like you have done quite a bit of research on the subject yourself. One of the benefits of this online age is that we all have a better opportunity to exchange information and participate in the historical discourse.

Marc Milners "Battle of the Atlantic" is a great short introduction to the campaign. He provides a really crisp overview and some convincing analysis of the ebb and flow of the battle.


My Review

Chris wrote: "Marc Milners "Battle of the Atlantic" is a great short introduction to the campaign. He provides a really crisp overview and some convincing analysis of the ebb and flow of the battle.

[bookcover:..."

Great review Chris!

This afternoon I started --

A Bloody War: One Man's Memories of the Canadian Navy, 1939-45 by Hal Lawrence.

I hope you enjoy it MR9. I have a pre-order in for this book on the Canadian Navy during the Atlantic campaign; "Battle of the Atlantic: Gauntlet to Victory", by Ted Barris.

Battle of the Atlantic: Gauntlet to Victory by Ted Barris

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I hope you enjoy it MR9. I have a pre-order in for this book on the Canadian Navy during the Atlantic campaign; "Battle of the Atlantic: Gauntlet to Victory", by Ted Barris.

[bookcover:Battle of t..."

Looks good.

Manray9 wrote: "This afternoon I started --

A Bloody War: One Man's Memories of the Canadian Navy, 1939-45 by Hal ..."

I read this one way back in the 80's--good book. Another one in a similar vein is this one:

Heart of Oak

From A Bloody War: One Man's Memories of the Canadian Navy, 1939-45 by Hal Lawrence.

I have nothing but respect for the men who fought a vicious naval war in the North Atlantic aboard Flower-class corvettes. Extreme discomfort was the normal state of affairs aboard such vessels -- except in rare cases of absolutely fine weather. In addition to being slow, wet (the ship’s had open bridges), lightly-armed, unaccommodating, and crowded, the early Flowers had a short forecastle which undermined stability and guaranteed a lot of sea water over the decks. Too much of that water ended up below. The advantages of the class were they were inexpensive to build and could be constructed at smaller yards all over the UK and Canada.

Hal Lawrence served aboard HMCS Moose Jaw, which with HMCS Chambly, sank U-501 off Greenland on 10 September 1941. This was the first confirmed kill of a U-boat by the Royal Canadian Navy.

Sailor’s humor appears similar no matter the nationality. HMCS Moose Jaw was accompanied by another corvette, HMCS Wetaskiwin. Wetaskiwin’s badge, painted on the gunshield, was a shapely queen sitting in a puddle of water – a visual representation of a wet-ass queen.

Great story MR9! My father-in-law served in an Australian corvette during WW2 - they really sounded like shit-buckets as far as I could tell!

The Flower's had an.... interesting reputation.
One of my "uncles" claimed to have had one roll in the bath, dad always held them up as an example of the importance of "beam".

I'm back in "Business in Great Waters"; Terraine is discussing a problem the U-Boats encountered in the early war (along with most of the combatants), namely dodgy torps:

Then on 10 November came the worst report of all, when the Type IIC U56 returned to Wilhelmshaven with her commander, Kapitånleutnant Zahn, in a state of very great depression, as well he might be. On 30 October his small boat had found itself in amongst the Horne Fleet and at 1000 hours the flagship Nelson presented an admirable broadside target; Zahn at once fired off a salvo of three torpedoes,

lined up well and truly to strike the flagship forward, amidships and aft As the U56 dived deeper, Zahn squeezed into the narrow radio room. The petty officer in charge held the stopwatch in his hand, counting the seconds. Zahn himself donned the earphones of the listening apparatus, uhich buzzed and droned with the thrashing of the mighty battleship's propellers.
Suddenly, above this constant noise, they both heard the metallic clang of iron against iron. Many others heard it too, even without the aid of listening apparatus. But after the clang — the strike — nothing followed: no thunderous crash, no explosion.
Then came a second, fainter clang. And that was all.

Zahn said in his report:

The torpedoes' failure to explode undermined the morale of the whole crew. . . . One torpedo finally detonated when it stopped running at the end of its fuel. I watched through the periscope as two destroyers dashed at top speed to the spot

Zahn's own morale was so affected by this awful failure — though it was none of his fault — that Dönitz felt obliged to take him off operations for a while and send him to von Friedeburg as a training instructor.

From Hal Lawrence's A Bloody War: One Man's Memories of the Canadian Navy, 1939-45.

On Christmas Eve 1941, south of Iceland, HMCS Moose Jaw encountered a storm with winds of hurricane force. Gusts hit 120 kts. The winds were so strong they suppressed the waves by blowing off the tops and creating spindrift so heavy the surface of the sea was obscured. The force of the wind kept lookouts from seeing by pressing their eyelids closed. It got worse. About 1400 the hail came. Hailstones like marbles swept in at 100 kts. Everyone was driven from the bridge to shelter in the Asdic hut. The hail shattered the windows forward and on the port side of the hut requiring erection of the wooden black-out screens for protection. One consolation: although the storm scattered the convoy, it kept the U-boats submerged too.

Two excellent posts Jonny and MR9 - again highlights the fact that being in the Infantry isn't always a bad thing!

Manray9 wrote: " The force of the wind kept lookouts from seeing by pressing their eyelids closed...."

That is some wind and terrifying. Much rather be in my airplane but not in that storm.

Mike wrote: "Manray9 wrote: " The force of the wind kept lookouts from seeing by pressing their eyelids closed...."

That is some wind and terrifying. Much rather be in my airplane but not in that storm."

Luckily I only encountered really bad weather at sea once for three days in the Eastern Atlantic.

From Hal Lawrence's A Bloody War: One Man's Memories of the Canadian Navy, 1939-45.

In 1942, Lawrence transferred to another Flower-class corvette, HMCS Oakville. On 28 August 1942, while escorting a convoy from the Caribbean, Oakville and her consorts encountered U-94 stalking them off Haiti. A U. S. Navy PBY flying boat dropped depth bombs as the U-boat attempted to evade. The Canadian warships conducted depth charge attacks and Oakville attempted two rammings – just glancing blows. At close range the surface vessels raked the U-boat with fire – 4-inch, 20 mm, .50 cal and .303 cal. After the second ramming attempt, the CO of Oakville gave the order every captain – deep in his heart – wants to give: “Away the boarding party!” Commander King (Number One), Lawrence, and a group of armed sailors leapt aboard U-94 to attempt its capture. Immediately Lawrence experienced a humbling incident: jumping to the U-boat’s deck, his belt broke and his tropical shorts fell to his ankles. Burdened with a .45 pistol, two grenades, a gas mask, a length of chain, a flashlight, and a lifevest, all he could do was kick away his pants and charge on. German crewman were topside and many dead or wounded were scattered about. As he dashed for the bridge, Lawrence saw horrified looks on the face of two enemy sailors:

They must have been thinking along the lines of “Blimey – he’s come to bugger us all.”

Lawrence dashed below to capture the signals equipment and codes, but the boat was flooding too quickly. He had to swim up the ladder to save himself. He dove over the side just before U-94 plunged to the bottom. Nineteen German crewmen were captured.

Lawrence was awarded a DSC.

"Business In Great Waters; John Terraine' detailed the birth of a certain class of ship - just for Manray:

On 24 January, 1940, there was a launching at Smith's Dock, Middlesbrough; the craft concerned was not an impressive man-of-war a displacement of 925 tons, 205 feet overall, a one-shaft reciprocating engine (2,750 hp) giving a speed of no more than 16 knots, a 4-inch gun and assorted AA, designed to hold a crew of eighty-five officers and men but she was nevertheless the portent, the first of the ‘whalers’ included in the same 1939 Estimates as the 'Hunt' Class destroyers. In those Estimates, presented before the final pre-war crisis, the destroyers were masked from unfriendly Treasury inspection by the appellation 'fast escort vessels'; of the 'whalers' not much was said, except that they would not be fast, but they mould be easy and quick to build, and the pattern chosen was that of the whale-catchers built chiefly for Norway at Smith's Dock. The First Lord did not much care for their name, and on 25 February, the day after the third launching of one of these vessels, he addressed a memorandum to the Controller of the Navy, Rear-Admiral B. A. Fraser:

I do not like the word 'whaler', which is an entire misnomer, as they are not going to catch whales, and I should likc to have some suggestions about this. What is in fact the distinction between an 'escorter', a 'patroller', and a 'whaler' as now specified? It seems most important to J arrive at simple conclusions quickly on this subject... Let me see a list of the vessels built and building which fall in the various categories.

Thus the 'fast escort vessels' took on their proper guise, and the 'whalers' became corvettes. It was not a name that appealed to everyone; Lenton and Colledge tartly remark:

As the link between old sailing and modern steam counterparts is one of function and not of size a closer approximation to corvette was the modern light cruiser.

They consider that this nomenclature set a 'groundless precedent' for the further incorrect naming of the later 'frigates', which have also been referred to as 'super-corvettes'. There seems to be a good deal in this criticism; it will not have escaped notice that the genesis of these vessels was distinctly similar to that of the 1915—18 sloops (see p. 35) and the naming of the ships themselves certainly followed that precedent. The little ships that came down the slipways in 1940 and after were also a 'Flower' Class, and the very first one of all, on 24 January, was Gladiolus. She would see her first action on 30 May, and her last on 16 October, 1941, when she was sunk by U558 in the North Atlantic. In the meantime, she and her sisters had been writing history. Vice-Admiral Sir Peter Gretton has called the 'Flower' Class corvette 'the workhorse of the convoy escort force'. Roskill says:

it is hard to sec how Britain could have survived without them.

and others have uttered even higher praise. There was no disguising the drawbacks of the corvettes — their slow speed, their cramped quarters almost rivalling the U-boats themselves for sheer discomfort, their extraordinary liveliness in the water (it was even said that 'a corvette would roll on wet grass'). But Joseph Schull insists:

With all their limitations, they performed under the knowledgeable hand of a seaman with something of the spirit of a thoroughbred. They felt seaworthy; and they were to prove so.

Another Canadian since Canadians would come to know them so well may have the last word:

The corvette navy was more a way of life than anything else.

In all, 259 corvettes would be built in Britain and Canada, and thirty-three of them would be lost, mainly by the torpedoes of their special enemies.

Manray9 wrote: "From Hal Lawrence's A Bloody War: One Man's Memories of the Canadian Navy, 1939-45.

In 1942, Lawrence transferred to another Flower-class corvette, HMCS Oakville. On 28 August 1942,..."

That made me burst out laughing - very funny story! Thanks for sharing MR9 :)

Jonny wrote: ""Business In Great Waters; John Terraine' detailed the birth of a certain class of ship - just for Manray:On 24 January, 1940, there was a launching at Smith's Dock, Middlesbrough; the craft concer..."

Another very interesting post Jonny, thanks for sharing those details!

Jonny wrote: ""Business In Great Waters; John Terraine' detailed the birth of a certain class of ship - just for Manray:On 24 January, 1940, there was a launching at Smith's Dock, Middlesbrough; the craft concer..."

Nice post, Jonny. The U.S. Navy operated a few designated as Patrol Gunboats (PG).

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "From Hal Lawrence's A Bloody War: One Man's Memories of the Canadian Navy, 1939-45.

In 1942, Lawrence transferred to another Flower-class corvette, HMCS Oakville. On..."

He lost his pants and found a DSC.

Jonny wrote: ""Business In Great Waters; John Terraine' detailed the birth of a certain class of ship - just for Manray:On 24 January, 1940, there was a launching at Smith's Dock, Middlesbrough; the craft concer..."

Nice post Jonny.

From A Bloody War: One Man's Memories of the Canadian Navy, 1939-45 by Hal Lawrence.

Lawrence bemoaned the meager quantity and poor quality of food aboard Canadian warships, especially when compared to the U.S. Navy. He wrote:

But eventually we met up with the United States Navy, where the amount of food was of glorious inconsequence, where polite Filipino mess-boys took personal pride in filling a plate twice or more. . . at remote anchorages we could also have our fill; each American destroyer would have a Canadian ship either snugged alongside or anchored nearby. For we had a commodity that a misguided Secretary of the Navy, Josephus Daniels, had denied the USN thirty years before – whiskey.

The officers of both navies would meet aboard the Canadian vessels for drinks at four cents each and then troop happily to the U.S. ships to “examine the menu with satisfaction.”

Lawrence explained that with drinks in the Canadian wardrooms:

. . . we invariably found ourselves in the peculiar Canadian position of explaining the English to the Americans. (In the previous three years we had been explaining the Americans to the English.)

Working the U.S. coastal and Caribbean convoy routes had certain advantages over the North Atlantic and UK waters. The weather was “balm to our fog-shrouded souls.”
Neither New York City nor Trinidad was much affected by the war: “Ashore, life was filet mignon with mushrooms, eggs and bacon, and apple pie.”