Christian Goodreaders discussion

Good question.

I think it's mostly the manner in which it is written, and quite obviously if it is written by a Christian or not.

I don't think that a non Christian can write Christian literature. You need to have a personal relationship with the Lord so that His love can show through what is written.

I need to think some more about this one :) you got my little grey cells going.

As a Christian author who writes for the mainstream and is published by a publisher that publishes both mainstream and Christian books, Christian fiction is usually described as a story that has a specific Christian focus, such as the characters talk about Jesus and their faith is a significant part of the story.
Sometimes other names can be used, such as faith-based fiction or inspirational fiction, although these terms can mean different things depending on the book's country of origin and sometimes the particular publisher that releases the book.

Lynne wrote: "As a Christian author who writes for the mainstream and is published by a publisher that publishes both mainstream and Christian books, Christian fiction is usually described as a story that has a ..."

Interesting...

Hmmm! I started this thread some time ago, and according to the stats that show when I click on the topics list for the "General Discussions" folder, it's supposed to have 25 posts in it. But when I click here on the thread itself, the first 22 are unaccountably missing! I'm going to touch base with the Goodreads Feedback group to see what's causing this, and how/whether it can be corrected.

Werner wrote: "Hmmm! I started this thread some time ago, and according to the stats that show when I click on the topics list for the "General Discussions" folder, it's supposed to have 25 posts in it. But whe..."

I was puzzled by those mysterious numbers Werner, maybe some hungry glitch ate them?

Not sure what happened there, SgoiltePrais! I've posted my query to the Goodreads Eeedback group, but haven't gotten any response yet.

Werner wrote: "Not sure what happened there, SgoiltePrais! I've posted my query to the Goodreads Eeedback group, but haven't gotten any response yet."

I have to admit that I am curious about what everyone else's opinions were :) but... it must be somewhat disturbing for you to realize that, all of a sudden, your discussion has vanished.

It is rather odd. Sorry about that.

Yes, that is odd, and disturbing. I'm not just upset for my own sake, but for other people who posted, too --and for discussion threads on Goodreads generally; if one can vanish, there's no guarantee that others can't as well. At last word, they had a technician looking into this.

From the standpoint of the book trade (bookstores and libraries --I'm a librarian, so I know about that sort of thing!), "Christian Fiction" is a very specific, narrowly-defined marketing category: it refers only to books published by firms that belong to the Evangelical Christian Publishers Assn. (ECPA), and approved for sale in stores belonging to the Christian Booksellers Assn. (CBA). They have to meet strict guidelines that censor bad language, sexual content, graphic violence, or references to vampires, werewolves, etc.

For a personal working definition, which I use when I'm thinking about fiction in general and making my own comparisons among authors, etc., I see all fiction written by Christian authors, and informed by a Christian worldview and a Christian ethic of craftsmanship, as Christian fiction. That's a view which is significantly broader than the ECPA/CBA definition.

Werner wrote: "Yes, that is odd, and disturbing. I'm not just upset for my own sake, but for other people who posted, too --and for discussion threads on Goodreads generally; if one can vanish, there's no guaran..."

I share that same view I think.
Maybe I can blame it on the Christian School library where I got most of my reading done since I was 16 ;) there's where I first came to know authors like J.B. Donovan, Maurice Cox, Anne MacCaffrey and Tolkien. Though I have to admit MacCaffrey was a bit... Well, I glossed over or flipped past some pages when reading her novels.

To me Christian writing should show Jesus in its pages even if they don't spell out His name. That is why I always struggled to write/create non Christian fiction, my characters do end up needing His guidance a lot even if the main story is not one traditionally thought of as Christian.

Werner wrote: "Yes, that is odd, and disturbing. I'm not just upset for my own sake, but for other people who posted, too --and for discussion threads on Goodreads generally; if one can vanish, there's no guaran..."

I do hope that technician will be able to fix the glitch of the vanishing posts.

I'm hoping that, too, SgoiltePrais!

My wife is quite a fan of Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels, mainly because the first one she stumbled on was The White Dragon, and she fell in love with the little runt dragon Ruth. Since she enjoys being read to, as well as reading, I've read most of these novels to her back in the 80s and 90s; so I know what you mean about McCaffrey. I'm not familiar with either Donovan or Cox, though.

Werner wrote: "I'm hoping that, too, SgoiltePrais!

My wife is quite a fan of Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels, mainly because the first one she stumbled on was The White Dragon, and she fell in love with the little ..."

Ahhh :) Ruth and Jaxom... I found Keevan first. He came out of the pages of a short story little book and I just had to find more about that world.

Donovan wrote a series for kids about inspector Bill Speed Meet Bill Speed C.I.D. , and Cox wrote one of my favourites back when :-)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battle-giants...

I did spend a lot of time in the library as a kid lol.

SgoiltePrais wrote: "I did spend a lot of time in the library as a kid". Same here! :-) Thanks for the links.

Werner wrote: "SgoiltePrais wrote: "I did spend a lot of time in the library as a kid". Same here! :-) Thanks for the links."

It's always nice to know we were/are not alone :)

You're welcome :) Not well known authors I guess, but that kid in me still loves them. I still read ol' Bill's adventures every now and then.

Amazon is great to help us find long lost editions of old favorites.

Werner, I agree with your assessment of Christian fiction, as you wrote:
For a personal working definition, which I use when I'm thinking about fiction in general and making my own comparisons among authors, etc., I see all fiction written by Christian authors, and informed by a Christian worldview and a Christian ethic of craftsmanship, as Christian fiction. That's a view which is significantly broader than the ECPA/CBA definition.

I loved Werner's personal definition. However as an author of a Christian YA novel I have seen first hand that that is not how most look at it. My book has had good reception but based on some reviews I've gotten as well as a lot of reading I've done on the subject a lot of people like their Christian fiction to be less than subtle and require a very specific "come to Jesus" moment where people get saved and live happily ever after. I think that is fine but its not necessarily the most realistic. After all, how many of us give our lives to Jesus but still have to work out our salvation. Not everything is just fixed when we come to know Christ, not all the problems and doubts and questions are gone.

Tabitha wrote: "I loved Werner's personal definition. However as an author of a Christian YA novel I have seen first hand that that is not how most look at it. My book has had good reception but based on some revi..."

I agree with you. That is what my next book is actually about lol! It is called Facing the Grey: Life isn't always black and white.

It's a YA Christian Fiction about a girl who has come to Jesus, but now has to face her life; it's problems, her past, and how her future is going to change--all as a Christian :) When her "old-self" tries to blister the surface of her changed life, while everything she had as a Christian gets taken from her and she is abandoned, what will she do? Stay firm on her beliefs? Or, will she faulted under her old ways...


...I think that sums up "working out your salvation" :D

I enjoy reading Christian fiction. I enjoy a book when they can pray, or read their bibles to find an answer. I am always uplifted by the inspirational part especially when a character has lost their faith, and finds it again. They do not have to openly accept Jesus in the book I read, I mean in front of a church, or be baptized . I am more impressed when the character, begins to trust God in small ways, and finally prays, or asks him for help, or reaches for a bible. I love historical fiction along these lines, although I have read present day spiritual books, or nurturing books for a Christian.

I'm not going to say who or what as I wish this writer the best, but in frustration I'm going to mention something and see if others have noticed it.

Also I'm always open to suggestions.

I ran across a Christian novel recently (and the publication made it quite plain this was a Christian book). In short I laid it aside after about 3 chapters.

The book was syrupy, overly angsty and frankly just not that well written. The main character starts out the book with a tragdy and things continue to pile on from there. It was an audio book and they went so far as to play minor key violin music in the background. While the character suffered he was becoming so accomplished Captain America could have been envious. When we're introed to the boys mother we're told she's so beautiful that even dirt and crud can't dim her beauty... Her beauty just "shines through" all the more.

It went on that way. I see this so often in Christian lit. I don't get what goes on sometimes. It seems that the quality of Christian lit. just doesn't often measure up to "regular" lit. I mean doesn't why doesn't anyone realize that describing a woman or man as average or slightly above in athletics, looks or whatever doesn't make them an unviable character. Why is the emotion so often over done and heavy handed?

Oh well, I wanted to like this. The synopsis sounded good but (at least I found) the execution not that readable.

I find it frustrating.

Werner wrote: "Not sure what happened there, SgoiltePrais! I've posted my query to the Goodreads Eeedback group, but haven't gotten any response yet."

Sometimes that happens either when GR delete the posts for being inappropriate, or when someone leaves GR. But that doesn't make sense if you started the discussion.

Who knows? A glitch in the GR matrix?

Iola, I've long since given up trying to explain anything that computers do! :-)

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I'm not going to say who or what as I wish this writer the best, but in frustration I'm going to mention something and see if others have noticed it.

Also I'm always open to suggestions.

I ran a..."

Unfortunately, that is a common issue in some Christian fiction. Not all, but some.

Personally, I like my CF to have a little more realism.

Thanks. I have read good CF but I seem more often to end up frustrated.

I have said this before but I think it bears being repeated. A lot of Christian ladies like fiction. A clean romance with touches of prayer or bible versus. Some actually have a character finding their faith in the book or their way. Some people do not feel these books should be included in Christian literature. I feel that anytime God or faith, or scripture and prayer is talked about in a plot it opens the way for non Christians to be led to faith. A book that teaches Christianity is usually nonfiction. I hear many ladies say I hate being preached at in a mystery or light romance. I think their are enough writers to write inspirational to complete books on the Bible. Each time someone is lifted up or given pause to think deeper that to me is a positive.

I think those things are wonderful and have read wonderful books including them. I'm simply frustrated that the quality of the books called CF is so often...well not so great.

Again, I wish all the writers well. It just seems that way.

I often feel the same way, Mike. But my folks read every piece of CF they can get their hands on and just love it. I guess different things appeal to different people. I have loads of CF because my husband keeps getting free ebooks for me. But I have to intersperse it with other books or I'd go nuts.

Like I said I keep looking. Frank Peretti has written a couple of books I like, one I list among my favorites. I generally go back to C.S.Lewis or something, but I'm sure there are some good books out there i just need to find them I guess.

Have you tried The Grave Robber by Mark Patterson. He wrote the Circle Maker. NYTimes Best Selling Author under Christian. The Circle Maker deals with the seven signs of Jesus in John. The Grave Robber tells about the continued use of Jesus Miracles in our times. I just got the Grave Robber as a gift. Just a suggestion.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Like I said I keep looking. Frank Peretti has written a couple of books I like, one I list among my favorites. I generally go back to C.S.Lewis or something, but I'm sure there are some good books ..."

If you like Frank Peretti, you might like Carrie Stuart Parks. She writes contemporary thrillers and her main character is a forensic artist. She doesn't have the supernatural element Frank Peretti's novels have ... but she credits him as her writing coach.

Thanks. I'll look for those.

Hi Pamela, that's Mark Batterson. Had trouble finding it, LOL. Thanks again.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I think those things are wonderful and have read wonderful books including them. I'm simply frustrated that the quality of the books called CF is so often...well not so great.

Again, I wish all th..."

Mike,

I know a few people who agree with you, and that's why they refuse to read CF. If we're going to use the word Christian as an adjective, then the noun needs to be top quality.

I agree. I keep looking, as noted I've found some I'd call superior.

Perhaps it should be renamed inspirational fiction. Sorry Mike. I was holding the book as I typed it. Shaking hands get me every time. Christian and fiction is the problem. When I think Christian straight speaking. I think non fiction. When I think fiction I still want a story added in. It is how the story is presented that no one agrees on. Some say it felt like it was a sermon , while others say, it did not go far enough. A lot of ladies go to biblical poems or such like Helen Steiner Rice. It is half story in it telling, but pure biblical in its meaning. Every author who writes Christian fiction also goes through editors , and publishers who want what sells. I wrote a Christian fiction. Great story but needed more fighting and sex appeal. I did not want a book about war , or bodice ripping with my name on it, as the main theme. I wanted it about finding the Lord, and leaning on him.

A preacher I know once said something in a Bible Study that made me pause for thought -he said, "Can you sell the gospel?" We all shook our heads, no you can't. The fact is, the gospel is the news of the free sacrifice of Jesus on the cross - i.e. it's already completely free... ! -- Before this I had written ten fantasy books in a C S Lewis/Tolkien sort of style, some weirder than others, under a pseudonym - which haven't really sold much! But this comment made me question the assumption that one can write Christian fiction as such - it has made me rethink things - i.e., the more of the gospel it contains, the further it will be from something 'saleable', the gospel should only ever given freely - but I suppose (like C S Lewis, Tolkien) a book might contain hints of the gospel, a sort of not-quite allegorical assumption that behind the universe (every world) there exists Someone, a presupposition that Jesus is real, and behind the scenes in the story, perhaps....?

That was my point Andrew true gospel is fiction. Truth. That is hard to put into a book of fiction unless it is in an inspirational way. Most publishers do not see that selling. Books about your walk, or a miracle, or how God led your path to him is not fiction either, but fact as you see it. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but it is rare to find. Book concerning anything even your faith appealing to everyone. That is why inspirational fiction writers sell. That doesn't make it wrong or right. Christian books are still. Business and therefore must sell. Sad but true.

I've found that when you write Christian fiction, you have to be careful not to get overly preachy, otherwise people won't read it. You have to present lessons in a way that they can easily relate to. At the same time though, you need to be careful not to contradict anything that God's Word specifically says, so there is definitely a balance to be upheld when it comes to Christian fiction.

Hold_My_Heart (Rachel) wrote: "I've found that when you write Christian fiction, you have to be careful not to get overly preachy, otherwise people won't read it. You have to present lessons in a way that they can easily relate ..."

I agree.

Preaching belongs to church, not stories. The power of a story, as the power of a parable, is in what it shows, not what it tells. Telling and explaining belong to the pulpit.

Perhaps there should be stages like in romance novels. Clean. Little heat. Sizzling. The new Christian perhaps a general faith is in the story. The next you add that and quote a few verses of the bible. The last. Deeper meaning with all three and invitation given gently to find Christ or Faith. I don't know, but I know books that get to preachy from a character, or characters will not get past editing.

If you read the story of the Two Sons (or the Prodigal Son) in Luke 15:11-32, the story contains no preaching. Yet it shows us something, something very profound. What the story shows is what makes this story of Jesus so powerful.

Theresa wrote: "Great example, Terry. Out of cutiosity, do you have any favorite novels, Christian or otherwise, that you believe have done a good job of "showing" the story of Jesus, the Truth, or the power of Go..."

Though it's been years since I read it, one example might be "My Name Is Asher Lev" by Chaim Potok. This book is not Christian; moreover Potok was a Jewish Rabbi if I recall correctly. Yet Potok wrote of art and the Hasidic community faithfully, and introduced in this story the symbol of the cross to show his mother's agony. What it also did, though perhaps unintentionally, was also show this "cross" as the point of potential reconciliation/redemption. In the case of the story, this would be between father and son. The implication of this for the reader, along with all of his other themes, would be enormous.

What made this all work was Potok's dedication to art and his passion to write truly. The result was no doubt greater than Potok possibly understood.

This book is an excellent example of not asking whether a book is Christian, but rather if the story is well told.

Just a thought.

Lots of good thoughts have been aired recently in this discussion! I haven't chimed in myself until now, because I've been too occupied elsewhere, but I've read all of the recent comments as they've been posted.

A couple of worthwhile books that address the subject of Christianity and the arts, including fiction, with insights that are relevant to this discussion, are Addicted to Mediocrity (Revised Edition): Contemporary Christians and the Arts and Sham Pearls for Real Swine: Beyond the Cultural Dark Age-A Quest for Renaissance, both by Frank Schaeffer.

One theme that recurs in this discussion, and discussions of Christian fiction elsewhere (by both believers and nonbelievers) is that Christian fiction that's heavily didactic, to the point that pounding home the Christian message by explicitly preaching it at length overwhelms any other aspects of the book (so that they only exist to provide a venue and excuse for the preaching) doesn't entertain well as fiction and doesn't persuade people well as an evangelistic tool. The unique genius of fiction is that it's about story: an involving narrative dealing with characters you care about, involved in a meaningful conflict where the resolution matters. When a writer sets out to create that kind of story and does it successfully, messages that are bound into the story have enormous psychological power. Where the story is just an afterthought that provides a framework in which to argue for an idea, that power is completely dissipated, no matter what the idea is (message-driven secular propaganda pieces in fictional dress don't fare any better, and for the same reason).

Not sure if this is the right place to post this question, but I am coming across some critics of my work, which I have labeled as Christian fiction, from a source I didn't expect - my church. I wrote a series (still at the beginning of the publication - only one of 7 books out so far) that brings the Gospel to light in each book. However, the humans are not the main characters, and as we know only humans have hope of heaven. I did a "what if" with modern-day Nephilim. (What if they were in existence today.) By doing so, I hope to show God's heart for the human race, how He wanted to save them and loved them enough to sacrifice on their behalf. I have been approached by leaders in my church and told that I can't take liberty with God's Word. (Essentially, it is not right to write fiction on behalf of the Lord.) Can anyone help me sort this out? I feel like my story came from God. It is clearly labelled as fiction, and I have a disclaimer on my website that I DO NOT believe Nephilim could possibly be in existence today. By Book 5, Christ's love will be evident in the story, but I'm not sure what to do if leaders are actually telling the other parishioners that they should not be reading my books. (The books that had been donated to the church library were removed and discarded.)

T. C., my advice is to trust the way the Holy Spirit has led you in how you write and, as you step out of the boat in faith and walk on the water, don't allow the waves to scare you and make you lose faith in Jesus' call --even if those waves are other Christians and church leadership. (We're all called to exercise spiritual discernment; but because we're imperfect people, all too often we distort that call into an excuse for judgmentalism and heresy-hunting, and God isn't pleased with the results.)

Despite the way the leaders in your congregation reacted, I think most of us in the family of God would be perfectly open to your fictional approach; and there are other congregations out there whose leadership wouldn't have reacted that way. My own novel is Christian vampire fiction; I agree that vampires don't really exist, but its a mythos that I felt lent itself to a symbolic presentation of the gospel. And yes, I've had Christian publishers, agents, and bookstores reject it (I finally published it through a secular small press), some of them quite snidely; but some of my biggest fans proved to be the folks at my church, and at the Baptist college where I work. (And some of my fellow Christian college librarians were very willing to buy copies of the book!) I say that by way of encouragement; your book may be intended, in God's providence, to reach nonbelievers more than Christians, but there are Christians out there who will appreciate it too. None of us indie or small press authors will ever sell many copies of our books in the market as it is today (that's just the reality); but God will put your book in the hands of the readers He wants to read it! Best wishes and blessings in your ongoing writing ministry.

Hi T.C. I freely admit I don't have the kind of wisdom I'd need to come with a Solomon like solution to your situation. That said I suggest you look to God. I generally advise people not to get their theology from novels. I don't get your pastor's reaction, especially denouncing your books.

They're stories.

Werner knows I'm not a fan of any kind of "positive vampire" (that is a non-villain vampire) story, we've talked about it. That does not mean his work is somehow anathema. The fact that your pastor may be uncomfortable with your story vehicle may be understandable but I'm not sure it rises to the level of church condemnation.

Of course I haven't read your books not being aware of them till now. :)

Again I'd say look to God and to your own heart before God, it's all the advice i can give.

God bless.

Hi TC;
In my opinion, writing fiction is NOT taking liberty with God's Word. Writing Christian fiction does not mean rewriting the Bible, or denying Christian truths, or proposing weird doctrines. it is a method of presenting the Christian faith, perspective, and worldview in a way that's not a sermon or a theological treatise... in a manner that's entertaining, accessible, and edifying. For church leaders to say that it's not right to write fiction in the name of the Lord is, in my opinion, very narrow-minded, and wrong-headed. Consider some of the people who have written Christian fiction: CS Lewis (Anglican), JRR Tolkein and Robert Hugh Benson (Catholic), Frank Peretti (Assembly of God), and I could go on and on. MANY Christians have written fiction. Some of them used characters that weren't human, especially those who wrote science fiction. Think of all the great works of literature that have been informed by Christianity.

Theresa is so correct that writing is an artistic expression - like music or painting. All these are means to expresses Truth, Goodness, Beauty, Love, Hope, the meaning of life... etc., etc.. in different ways. Your church leaders (and I don't wish to be harsh) sound like the iconoclasts who smashed artwork and forbade music thinking that thereby they were being more religious. How barren the world would be without music, art, and fiction!

And there are certainly various matters in which we are left in ignorance and upon which we can disagree in charity. Theresa mentions pets in heaven. We aren't told. I believe there are - as did CS Lewis, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and Robert Hugh Benson, for example - because I believe in the Love of God for all his creatures, and that Christ's redemption extends to them as well. Surely there will be room in the New Heaven and New Earth for those companions who have enriched our lives.

And as for only humans having the hope of heaven... we don't know what other beings may inhabit the universe (if any). CS Lewis wrote about unfallen beings in his space trilogy. We can agree that fallen angels are excluded from heaven... but beyond that... who knows? That doesn't preclude us from using aliens or Nephilim in stories. Just because we write about them doesn't mean that we really believe they exist.

Werner makes a good point as well. We don't just write for other Christians, we write for non-believers as well, people who might never pick up a Bible or a book of theology or sermons.

Most Christians, I think, are perfectly willing to accept fiction and the tools we use - aliens, time-travel, Nephilim, vampires, ghosts, saints, whatever - in the telling of our stories. It is ART - not a competition with God's Word.

If you believe that God has given you a story to tell, then tell it, tell it in the way it comes to you, and trust God. As Theresa said, don't be tied to the opinions of others. There will always be someone who disagrees with you. But many more who will appreciate your artistry. Show the light of Christ. That's what matters. In any format.

BTW, the forthcoming October issue of "New Oxford Review" will feature my article on Catholic ghost stories which addresses many of these same issues.

God bless!

Thank you so much, Theresa and Werner. I really appreciate the encouragement and stories you shared. Theresa, what you said, "I believe writers should write the stories they feel led to write. And if the writer's heart is filled with Christ, the story will naturally reflect the light of Christ." is EXACTLY my hope. I guess I just needed to hear from other Christians that this is possible, especially when I hear from the ones who are leading me that it is not what is being evidenced in my work.

I didn't go on and comment on content...but if there are other forms of life in this or some other universe then I'm sure they are as mush a part of God's plan as we..."humans" After all God is no respecter of "persons".

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Hi T.C. I freely admit I don't have the kind of wisdom I'd need to come with a Solomon like solution to your situation. That said I suggest you look to God. I generally advise people not to get the..."

Thanks, Mike, that's exactly what I say on my website as well - not to take your theology from fiction. The answer my elders had for me was that even though I say that, people aren't necessarily going to listen and they will be led astray by my writing. Therefore, I was strongly encouraged to not even put it out there and stop writing.

But I would like to agree with you as well and trust the leading of the Holy Spirit.

As far as God's plan for non-humans, well, I'm too concerned about the plan for humans to worry about it. ;) Thanks again.

Andrew wrote: "Hi TC;
In my opinion, writing fiction is NOT taking liberty with God's Word. Writing Christian fiction does not mean rewriting the Bible, or denying Christian truths, or proposing weird doctrines. ..."

Thank you for you view, Andrew. I take no offense on behalf of my church leaders, as I have been having much trouble with them lately anyway. (It also happens that I am a woman who holds a leadership position as Director of Christian Education in our church, and have held that position since before the new elders came to our church. But when they came, they brought with them a "no women in leadership" mentality.) I have thought that perhaps they were looking for a reason to have me resign, but one elder actually preached from the pulpit not to read Christian fiction that has not been approved by an elder. It is quite frustrating. I don't mean to lay my whole laundry list of church problems out there, but I do feel also that it is sad and misleading to those who might find a beautiful picture of God in works of fiction. C.S. Lewis and Tolkein are some of my favorites. I loved the idea of writing about creatures not normally found in the world as they did, and that was how I tried to pattern my work as well. Thank you for your thoughts.