Book Nook Cafe discussion

Doubt: A Parable by John Patrick Shanley

When: The discussion will begin on April 22, 2010

Where: In this thread

Spoilers: Since the play is only around 60 pages long, I think we will dispense with spoiler warnings.
Read this thread AFTER you read the play to avoid spoilers.

Subject: A nun suspects a priest of having a relationship with an altar boy.

Genre: Drama

Setting: A Catholic school in the Bronx. Autumn 1964.

Author Bio


John Patrick Shanley
Born 3 October 1950 (1950-10-03) (age 59)
The Bronx, New York, USA
Occupation Playwright and Screenwriter
Nationality United States
Alma mater New York University
Spouse Jayne Haynes

John Patrick Shanley (born October 3, 1950) is an American playwright, screenwriter, and director.

Shanley was born in The Bronx, New York City, to a telephone operator mother and a meat-packer father.[1:] He is a graduate of New York University, and is a member of the Ensemble Studio Theatre. He was also a United States Marine[2:]

For his script for the 1987 film, Moonstruck, Shanley won the Academy Award for Best Original Screenplay and the Writers Guild of America Award for Best Screenplay Written Directly for the Screen.

In 1990, Shanley directed his script of Joe Versus the Volcano. Shanley also wrote two songs for the movie: "Marooned Without You" and "The Cowboy Song."

In 2004 Shanley was inducted into the Bronx Walk of Fame.

In 2005, Shanley's play Doubt: A Parable was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Drama and the Drama Desk Award and Tony Award for Best Play. Doubt: A Parable, is featured in The Fourth Wall, a book of photographs by Amy Arbus in which Shanley also wrote the foreword.

In 2008, Shanley directed a film version of Doubt starring Meryl Streep, Philip Seymour Hoffman and Amy Adams and Viola Davis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pat...

Even though there are available copies, I am still waiting for them initiate shipping a copy to my branch library. I'll let you know when it is on the way to me.

Rumor has it that there is a copy available at my Central Library. I'll try to get it tomorrow. If I can't I'll have to request it.

Barbara

Leaving within the hour to go to "my" library & get a copy.

deb

Background Info
I do not think this changes the play much but you may want to wait until you've read the play before looking at the web site. No Spoilers, only an idea of the era, which could alter the way you view events in the play.

I've read the play & am excited to talk about it. One thing which occurred to me as i read it is a question of whether this group knows about what i call "Vatican II" but Father Flynn refers to (correctly)as "the Second Ecumenical Council". Here is a link, written 40 years later, about it. http://www.americamagazine.org/conten...

For me the important parts are #2 & #3. The Pope who called the council died after the first two sessions, which i'd forgotten. In a way it's important because this play takes place in-between the 4 gatherings.

deborah

I don't want you to think I am ignoring you all, but the book still is not in transfer to me. :( I'll have to ask the librarian what's up.

I'll catch up when I get the book. A good thing about GR is the book discussion for a particular book can be all contained in one thread so it easy to access later on.

Deborah, I don't think I want to go back into Papal history, simply because it leads me away from looking directly at the motivations and behavior of the characters. It's just me - I prefer to look at what's there on stage (or the page) and try to shape my thoughts about the people portrayed.

Anyway, Blockbuster says the DVD is on the way. and I'm looking forward to that.

Yeah ! I see it the book in now in transit. So I will probably have it in a few days.

My copy is at the Library. Will get it as soon as I can.

Donna

Sherry, i can understand that & i usually feel the same way. The reason i mention it is because it seems to me my knowledge of the council (in Catholic school, grade 8, even, the year the play is set) may have altered my interpretation of events. More about that after everyone else has read the play.

deborah

Did get the play today. And I agree about looking at what is in front of me, but I think it is helpful to know that this took place kind of in the middle of Vatican II. Putting things in their historical place tends to be useful to me.

Barbara

I will admit to being raised Baptist here, though I am unaffiliated now. It's just that when people get to telling stories about Catholic school often the discussion strays pretty far from the original story, in my experience.

Bobbie57 wrote: Putting things in their historical place tends to be useful to me. .."
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I would agree with that. I'm not well versed in Vatican II, so I appreciate being able to put the play in the context of its time.

Notes on the author indicate that he grew up in the Bronx and went to Catholic school. I grew up in Mt. Vernon, just north of there. A large Italian Catholic population. As I grew older and heard Catholic referred to as a minority I was very surprised.

Schools were pretty strict in my day. Public as well as Catholic schools. Although the parochial schools were always tougher. The boys used to come streaming out of school at 3PM like animals let loose because they had been so restricted. And there were lots of street fights. So when Sister Aloysius asks whether anybody had hit the boy and then says someone will -- I felt that this was not a far out statement.

My reaction to this play is WOW. I have only seen clips of the movie and I had formed an opinion based on that. And now -- guess what -- I have Doubt.

Well written. Lots of food for thought.

Barbara

Just a quickie comment about a related book. As I said, I have zero Catholic school experience, so what I know I've heard only. But I'm reading Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man and the first chapter is about a Catholic boarding school where a couple alter boys get into trouble for drinking communion wine, there's talk of homosexual dalliance amongst a group of boys, and the priest has feminine hands with long nails. Sheesh.

Sherry:
priest has feminine hands with long nails. Sheesh.
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I am totally grossed out when I see a man with long nails. I am also grossed out when I see men with one very long pinky nail. I don't know if it's for drug use or what. Yuck !

I wanted to give a link for the book. It's the Joyce novel you are talking about, right?

A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce

Yes, it is assumed that one long nail is for drug use. It bothers me when I see someone who I know with that situation and creates anxiety in my thoughts about that person.

Barbara

That's the book Alias. I put a link but it must have been in another thread.

We watched Doubt last night, and will watch some of the extras tonight. I really am enjoying the ambiguity of these characters.

I plan on going to a library today that is a bit of a distance from me. They are showing the movie Food Inc.

I mention it here because their online catalog is showing a copy of the movie, Doubt is on their shelf. If so, I'll pick it up.

The book is still showing "in transit" However, I still have hope it will come in today as they haven't yet updated the computer because they don't open until 1pm today.

Sherry (sethurner) wrote: "We watched Doubt last night, and will watch some of the extras tonight. I really am enjoying the ambiguity of these characters."

Sherry, i agree. This is why i wanted to share the link about Vatican II. ALIAS, THERE IS A BIG SPOILER BELOW

DO NOT LOOK, ALIAS!

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!!


I kept asking myself why Father Flynn transferred out of the parish if he was innocent. My conclusion was that in his other parishes he had run into the same rigid standards while he was promoting the feelings generated by Pope John XXIII. He knew it would end up damaging the Church rather than helping, so he again left. Up against Aloysius, he didn't stand a chance.

However, i don't have a good sense of why a young man pulling away from the priest on the first day of school made her think sexual abuse was the problem. My first thought, even in this day & age, would be that the boy had some pain where the priest touched him.

Do you think her own lack of "innocence" played into her interpretation? Or was she more aware than others of the possibilities? I don't feel we have much to go on, although we can see the way she lined up Sister James as her comrade. That was fascinating to read.

deborah

I hope you got your hands on the play, Alias. There are a couple of things i want to clarify, so there will probably be SPOILERS BELOW


The first is about the relationship between the nuns. Am i alone in the impression that Sister Aloysius almost groomed Sister James to come to the same conclusion? First she criticizes her teaching style, her age and the way she hasn't sent more students to the principal. Next she makes the hints.

What did you think about Sister A's meeting with Mrs. Muller? Yet another scene which leads one to wonder about what happened, as in, would a predator see Donald as receptive? It was a emotionally frightening exchange for me. Again, i couldn't help but put it in historic perspective. This was the way out for Donald. What is the price?

Finally, there is the doubt of the abuse itself and of faith. Did Sister A express a doubt about the correctness of her actions at the end? A willingness to connive? Were there other doubts involved?

deborah

We're all good with just replying now, right?

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I see Sister Aloysius as the central character, the one whose doubts, in the end are most serious. I think she does see Sister James as malleable, innocent. The real question for me is why she pursues the priest with such intensity and fury based on only a hunch, a suspicion. I don't think the older nun is a bad person, but rather a person who is in a difficult position of limited authority. She has lost a husband, is running a school (never easy), and really has little power in a religious culture that gives all the power to men. She is forced to be devious by the chain of authority that is in place at the time. I also think she sees Father Flynn as a representative of changing times, and that scares her to death. From his minor vanities (long fingernails) and indulgences (secular music, sugar, ball point pens), to his wanting to befriend students, all of this represents change that she sees as dangerous. Poor woman, to be so rigid and fearful in a time of great changes in and out of the church. He must be stopped, and the one thing that might stop him is a hint of sexual scandal. So she plants seeds of doubt in Sister James' mind, and probably waters those seed in her own mind as well, until they grow into something dark and poisonous.

<>

Absolutely. And of course there are many doubts - religious doubts, doubts about characters' own motivations, doubts about whether the priest left because of some guilt or because he just wanted to live and work in a less toxic environment, doubts about if means justify ends. That, in the end, is what makes this compelling drama.

Just read it. Great Stuff. Really suspenseful. Really efficient (packs a lot in a short screenplay). Really relevant to our everyday lives. My biggest criticism would be the Title and the Preface (real big criticisms, huh). "A Parable" could have been left off the title. It is pretty snooty. I found the preface to be highly interesting but a bit snooty. More thoughts later. I'll re-read it as it is such a quick read.

I saw some comments on this thread about Sister Aloysius. I think Sister Aloysius has a lot of relevant opinions on matters (her criticisms of Sister James were insightful, but I think she missed the big picture that Sister James was a wonderful gift to the convent), but overall she is fairly miserable. And obviously she feels a strong need to be 'certain' of stuff, even when she does not know enough to be as 'certain' as she wants to be. She would probably be an interesting person to have lunch with, but I think she would wear most people out after a while.

As for her 'manipulation' of Sister James, I think her criticisms were genuine and not manipulative. If I remember correctly, a good portion of her criticism took place before she found out that Father Flynn and Donald were alone in the rectory.

Sherry & Mad Dog, i agree with your thoughts on Aloysius. She does seem to hope to keep her own part of the church in control as long as she can. It must have been more of a challenge since she gave up her secular life for one which offered strict rules, yet seemed to be changing. I'm not sure about having lunch with her, though, Mad Dog, as i suspect i'd be choking much of the time.

And i agree that the doubts at the end, the not knowing "the truth" is what makes this a significant drama. And the subtitle bothered me, too. I didn't realize that was part of the title until i had the book in my hand.

One thing with which i disagree is how long she suspected Father F. Toward the end of the play Sister A tells Father F that she had suspicions from the first day of school when one of the altar boys (William London) withdrew from the priest's touch on the wrist. I believe she had her belief from that point on but needed help with facts, making a newish teacher the best in whom to confide her speculations.

One thing i find frustrating is that we know her points of conviction but we do not know his "defense". We are only given his denial, not even a hint of explanation. Do you think a suggestion of reasons would have diluted the play?

deborah

I'm going to have to re-read the play some time this weekend. I read it last week, then watched the film, which may have swayed me a little. In general I don't think Father F felt he had to defend himself to Sister A, that he answered only to the male chain of command. I honestly think this is a real part of the struggle between them. He had an explanation for why he was alone with Donald, and as for a boy flinching at his touch, that just doesn't signify much to me. Children sometimes flinch when touched by an authority figure. As with Donald, there are often circumstances which we are not aware of with students.

Welcome to BNC, Mad Dog ! Are you a fan of Chris Russo? I miss him on sports radio. I don't have satellite radio to hear him.

As to the priest, what did you think about him putting the undershirt in the boys locker?

I've read half the play and watched the DVD. On the bonus track on the DVD they show a brief interview with the real Sister James. And sister Aloysius is also based on a real person. They said when her husband died she worn her black morning clothes. She was too poor to later change and the other nuns when she started the order followed suit and wore the same style.

As to the preface, I started to read it, but stopped. I wanted to read the play first. I'll get back to it after I finish reading the play. Though the one thing in the preface did have me shaking my head.

"We are living in a courtroom culture. We were living in a celebrity culture, but that's dead. Now we're only interested in celebrities if they're in court."

This isn't true. It does seem that we like to tear them down after we build them up. But to say we only care when they are in court is incorrect. Celebrity culture is far from dead. In fact I think we are celebrity obsessed.

Putting the shirt in the locker is just a device to heighten the tension, and doubt. I think Shanley is very careful not to tip the balance one way or the other, and this is just one more thing to keep the audience guessing. The boy had to change to be an alter boy, and he might not have put his tee shirt back on. Or maybe not.

I guess i'm going to have to reread the play, too, as i don't remember anything about an undershirt. As everyone has noted, it's short enough that a rereading isn't a burden.

I wasn't aware this was based on a true story. Well, by that i mean i thought it was based on the idea that something like this could happen but i figured the characters were fairly original. It adds a sadder element to the story.

As for celebrity culture, i agree with you, Alias. Sure, the courtroom celebrity is hot & you can almost make a big name for yourself, even if you are a minor "celebrity" by getting arrested. But i don't think we really are where Shanley seems to think we are.

Frankly, i didn't care for the idea of a preface to a play. Does anyone know if this was part of the performance onstage? Or was it part of the Playbill write-up which includes bios? I'd be curious.

Last night i saw Linda Lavin in a play, which i'll discuss in another thread. However, in Playbill it mentions she's played Sister A. I could see her doing a good job with it, too. And as much as i liked Meryl Streep, i wish i'd been able to see Cherry Jones in the role. She's another favorite of mine.

deborah

Deb--I wasn't aware this was based on a true story. Well, by that i mean i thought it was based on the idea that something like this could happen but i figured the characters were fairly original. It adds a sadder element to the story.
-----------------------------

I don't know if the plot is true but the people I mentioned are real. The playwright went to that school.

On DVD you can watch the movie with his voice over comments. I only watched a few minutes of that.
Than there is a section where they interview the nuns. Quite interesting. I need to watch it again.

The preface is commentary by the author of the play.

Just finished, but hand is stiff right now. Saw the movie Christmas 2009. So much DOUBT in so few pages!

Donna

I saw the film not long after it was released but didn't look at the "extras". I may need to look at it again.

When i reread the play today i was looking for mention of the undershirt but didn't see it. Was that in the movie? If not, could someone help me find it in the play?

I understood that the preface is commentary from the author but i don't recall seeing that in a play previously. Have i just skipped over it? It's almost as though he didn't trust us to "get" his point but had to add a sermon, if you will, to the book. This is why i asked if it was part of the Playbill.

One more question occurred to me as i reread the play. Is there a significance to Sister Veronica & her blindness? If so, it flew past me.

This reading i also noted that several times Sister A asked (demanded!) that Father F confess. Curiously, speaking in the context of the Church, confessing to her would only serve her, as only a priest could absolve him & add penance. Yet it is important to her. Not that she would have let it go, she made clear that with a confession she expected him to resign.

deborah

We were out all day, so I have not re-read, but I believe the scene with the shirt was added to the film, not part of the original. The playwright says in the film extras that the story is fiction, though the location is real, and lots of things about the nuns, priests, kids, locations, are out of his personal experience. Sister James was inspired by his fond memories of his first grade teacher.

I think Sister Veronica on one level just represents how the elderly nuns were watched after and cared for. On a more symbolic level, to me she represents Sister A's "blindness" and potential for being "tripped up" by the winds of change blowing through the church and society as a whole. The English major will shut up now.

madrano wrote: "One more question occurred to me as i reread the play. Is there a significance to Sister Veronica & her blindness? If so, it flew past me.
."
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I thought is showed a softer caring side to Sister A. It also showed she was willing to break the rules when needed. If she told that Sister V. had difficulty seeing she would have been sent away. Again it showed that Sister A. was not just an unfeeling one dimensional character.

I thought the metaphor of the blowing winds of change was a bit too obvious in the film.

Mad Dog wrote: .My biggest criticism would be the Title and the Preface (real big criticisms, huh). "A Parable" could have been left off the title. It is pretty snooty."
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I thought using "parable" in the title added another dimension to the story. At the start of chapter VII Sister James asks if the story in his sermon about the pillow was true. Flynn replies that it is a made up story, "You make up little stories to illustrate. In the tradition of the parable."

Since the word is used in the title, one than must look at the story more than just a tale to entertain. The story is illustrative.

madrano wrote:The first is about the relationship between the nuns. Am i alone in the impression that Sister Aloysius almost groomed Sister James to come to the same conclusion? First she criticizes her teaching style, her age and the way she hasn't sent more students to the principal. Next she makes the hints.."
-------------------
Sister A. wasn't the only one who was trying to sway Sister James.

Chapter VII Flynn tells her she may "lose her job". Sister James replies, "Are you threatening me?"

madrano wrote: "What did you think about Sister A's meeting with Mrs. Muller? Yet another scene which leads one to wonder about what happened, as in, would a predator see Donald as receptive?..."

=====================

I think Mrs. Muller makes it clear that her son is gay. She even admits after awhile that is why the father beat him, not because he drank the wine.

Sherry (sethurner) wrote: "Putting the shirt in the locker is just a device to heighten the tension, and doubt. I think Shanley is very careful not to tip the balance one way or the other, and this is just one more thing to..."
------------------------------

Yes, of course it is one more ambiguity. I mentioned it because the posts prior to mine seemed to be siding with the Flynn. I was just balancing out the scale. :)

If we only just discuss the exact facts as written in the text and don't seek to read between the lines, or sometimes cite other sources, there would be little to discuss. Sometimes it is the gray area between the lines where the interesting things happen and since this isn't a court of law we are free to roam. :)

They were things Flynn says that also add to the confusion. When Sister A repeatedly asks him if he gave the boy wine at one point his reply is, "Whatever I have done, I have left in the healing hands of my confessor. "

And later on he says to Sister A. "There are things I can't say. Even if you can't imagine the explanation, Sister, remember that there are circumstances beyond your knowledge."

Is he confessing or can't he speak up because what he is hiding is his knowledge that Donald is gay? Who knows? But part of the fun is speculating on his motive.

One side note, I thought it interesting that Flynn is for the new changes coming to the church, but when he stands accused he reverts to the old male chain of authority. Some may say it's because the men will stick up for each other. And in this case Flynn is even rewarded with a promotion ! As Sister A. notes the declining membership in the priesthood is also a factor. (this is one charge against the current Pope. The Pope stated in a letter that has come to light that there were other things that were more important than the molestation charge against a particular priest. And even though the priest asked to be defrocked, his request was denied.)

Sorry, Deb. The undershirt may have just been in the movie.

I suspect that this play, much like the old short story The Lady or the Tiger, is one that says as much about the reader (or viewer) as it does about the actual text. I'm not particularly happy to realize that I sympathize very much, and am very interested in Sister A, even though she is not a sympathetic character. But having been somewhat of an old school strict teacher myself, I read my own feelings and experiences into her comments and actions. I find her fierce attack on Father Flynn to be an example of how she fights for what she thinks is right, and I see little examples of kindness in her. I find her confession to Sister James at the end heartbreaking. I hope I am not as rigid as she seems to be, though. :)

Alias comments:

"I thought it interesting that Flynn is for the new changes coming to the church, but when he stands accused he reverts to the old male chain of authority. Some may say it's because the men will stick up for each other. And in this case Flynn is even rewarded with a promotion ! As Sister A. notes the declining membership in the priesthood is also a factor."

Excellent point.

Sherry (sethurner) wrote: " The playwright says in the film extras that the story is fiction...Sister James was inspired by his fond memories of his first grade teacher. "

I am smiling because my first grade nun, who was also the principal (almost a combination of these two nuns in the play), quit the convent to get married! She was tough on me but i know i deserved it.

Sherry (sethurner) wrote: "I think Sister Veronica on one level just represents how the elderly nuns were watched after and cared for. On a more symbolic level, to me she represents Sister A's "blindness" and potential for being "tripped up" by the winds of change blowing through the church and society as a whole. The English major will shut up now...."

Don't you dare shut up! As i noted, i got zilch from Sister V's situation but can see the point now.

deborah

Alias Reader wrote: "Sister A. wasn't the only one who was trying to sway Sister James.

Chapter VII Flynn tells her she may "lose her job". Sister James replies, "Are you threatening me?" ..."

Sorry, i didn't mean that she wasn't being pushed from both sides, only that until Sister A recruited her, Sister J was happy in her job & ignorant of any problems with the priest. Then, after the exchange between the nuns, her confidence seemed low & a case could be made that she began to try to please the older nun in every way, including "evidence".

She is really the balance in the play. We see her torn, we see her loss and then we see her at the end, refreshed (relieved the "problem" is gone) but concerned about the way things worked out.

Alias Reader wrote: "
One side note, I thought it interesting that Flynn is for the new changes coming to the church, but when he stands accused he reverts to the old male chain of authority."

Very good point.



deborah

Sherry: I suspect that this play, much like the old short story The Lady or the Tiger, [u:]is one that says as much about the reader (or viewer) as it does about the actual text.[/u:]
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I like the way you worded that, Sherry.

We come to books, as we do to life, with a whole bunch of baggage.

Maybe this is one reason many like to peruse the book shelves of others.

On Book TV yesterday they were interviewing Tim Naftali. He is the the director of the Nixon Presidential Materials Project and director-designate of the federal Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum.

At the point in the program when they took calls, one person called in and said they were reading a book by an author who I didn't know. And I can't recall the name of at this time. Anyway, when the call was finished the interviewer asked Naftali, if he, Naftali, couldn't tell the politics of the caller by the book he read. I thought Naftali gave a brilliant reply. (I'm paraphrasing) He said he would even try. And he hoped others wouldn't speculate either. He said he still hoped that people would seek out opinions and ideas that didn't already confirm opinions that they already had. He said he didn't just read authors that he agreed with.

I thought it was a nice sentiment, but I don't know that it is true. People like to think they are open minded. However, there are a lot of new books that posit that people do seek out media that confirms their already firmly held beliefs. And with the Internet and cable this is easier than ever.

Neil Postman, the teacher and media commentator, made this observation many years ago about newspapers versus getting your info from cable or the Internet. When you read a newspaper or when you had to get your news from one of the big three networks, you heard or read a variety of news stories and opinions. The Internet and cable have changed all that. And that is not a good thing, imo. I think it is one of the factors that is making us such a polarized country.

Alias Reader wrote: "He said he still hoped that people would seek out opinions and ideas that didn't already confirm opinions that they already had. He said he didn't just read authors that he agreed with...."

Here! Here! I could not agree more. One thing which i have noticed previously in my life is that if i don't read the exact same book someone else has, they do not feel i have exposed myself to those with whom i disagree. In my opinion, i do not need to read the "big name"/network pundit's books but can receive similar information from more reasoned and footnoted authors/pundits/opinion shapers.

Therefore, i cannot discuss the merits of an Ann Colter or Bill Reilly book because i don't read them. However, i am prepared to talk about & listen to those who wish to discuss the general topics they cover. I'm not sure if that makes me fall into the category Mr. Naftali suggests but i still tend to agree with him that learning only one side of the issue is detrimental to healthy exchanges about topics.

deborah

I already admitted to being most interested in Sister A. How about the rest of you, which character interests you most? I'm not sure what I mean by that; identify with? sympathize with? like? dislike? want to talk to? want to shake?

madrano wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: "He said he still hoped that people would seek out opinions and ideas that didn't already confirm opinions that they already had. He said he didn't just read authors that he agr..."

I am one of those people who likes to read other opinions. But I try not to read books where you know what the opinions will be before you open the book.
I like to look for new information. Sometimes new facts that can be interpreted in different ways.
That is one of the reasons why I object to the idea of librarians being asked to share with some government agency what books you have borrowed. An idea that is floated from time to time. If I read a book about Karl Marx, does that mean I am a Marxist?
Give me a break.

Barbara

I find myself identifying with Sister James. I remember the days when I was a new teacher and I really had no guidance and felt as if I was trying my best. It seems to me that she felt that Sister A was heaping criticism on her but not offerring much constructive support.

I have no problem with being an old-fashioned strict teacher, but I think that Sister A was over the top for my taste. Not so much in teaching philosophy but in concern over the small stuff as in ballpoint pens and Frosty the Snowman.

Barbara