Tips for Self Promotion, Sales, and Advertising discussion
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Publishing Company Experiences
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My experience has been that it is hard! And I mean, super-hard!The biggest challenge you will have from the beginning is to get your product in front of people. This sounds easier than it is, and even if you do have some exposure, the next biggest problem is to gain traction. It's no use to have a couple of thousand people seeing or hearing about your product, but no one taking an interest in it, let away purchasing it.
Also, when you say "running a publishing company," I assume you are not just talking about one of those print-on-demand publish yourself outlets, but a real effort that involves printing our product, carrying an inventory, going through regular retail sales channels, doing marketing, running advertising, having a decent web presence, etc.
All of that requires pretty deep pockets and a lot of effort, not to say commitment. I am not discouraging the effort, but I think you need to be aware of the impact this will have on you if you approach this from a professional standpoint.
Guido, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not talking print on-demand, I'm talking the whole deal.I have done wonders for my clients as far as marketing is concerned, which leaves me no time for marketing my own stuff. I'm considering cutting them lose and worry about my own products.
Yeah, as I said, it is a hard task. The amount of work is brutal. I'm doing the same thing with my Jason Dark series and I find I am spending more time trying to find exposure, trying to get some marketing opportunities lined up, etc than I have actually writing these days. In a sense, that defeats the purpose, but I do not see any other way how I could have brought Jason Dark to market at all.I think the important thing to understand, before you jump into this, is that it is a lot of work, requires a lot of time and money.
money for what? Time for sure, but net marketing is free mostly... especially if you put in MORE time. unfortunately there are only 24 hrs in a day.
j wrote: "money for what? Time for sure, but net marketing is free mostly... especially if you put in MORE time. unfortunately there are only 24 hrs in a day."I'd have to agree with Guido, marketing is quite expensive. Promotion on the other hand, while mostly free, IS time-consuming.
maybe i need a definition. what's the difference between marketing and promo? 'preciate it.
J, the terms are a bit confusing since most people use them together loosely. But marketing deals with the advertisement component of promoting a book. In short, marketing = advertising. In order to market a product, one must pay for publicity and ultimately incorporate the promotion into the ad.Examples of marketing: buying ad space in a newspaper or magazine; paying for a book tour.
Examples of promotion: plugging your book on a radio or television interview; posting online promos at social networking sites like Myspace, Goodreads, Twitter, Facebook; sending out promotional material like flyers, posters, business cards, book marks, reviews, etc..
Kevis is right. There is a significant difference between marketing and mere promotion.While a lot of net promotion may be free, as you say, real marketing costs a lot of money to this day still. My comment wasn't solely targeted at some net exposure, which is mostly free, but at real product marketing. In addition, as a publisher you need money to pay for the production of your product, you need money to store your product, not to mention all the cost associated with getting into retail stores, such as various sales materials, promotional support and payments, as well as placement payments, potentially traveling expenses and so forth. The list is almost endless.
That is exactly why I was asking at first whether Keivs was talking about "real" publishing or the popular do-it-yourself print-on-demand vanity publishing.
yes, the two are confusing. marketing sounds like a waste of money. probably why you dont see many book ads in newspapers, mags, on radio or tv. maybe a guest spot on daly, covare, or oprah, but then they pay you. I told oprah i'd settle for air fare and hotel. waiting for reply.
j wrote: "yes, the two are confusing. marketing sounds like a waste of money. probably why you dont see many book ads in newspapers, mags, on radio or tv. maybe a guest spot on daly, covare, or oprah, but..."J, Tom hit the nail right on the head. Starting a publishing company without the ability to properly market (not promoting) a book is an act of futility. Any author can promote his/her book. Very few can find the appropriate funds to market their books .
I'm not sure that you understand the effectiveness of marketing vs. promotion. I would agree that mindless marketing IS a waste of money. But not "target" marketing. If you recall, in my last post I said that marketing = advertising. But marketing also = legitimization. The main reason why many indie or small press authors have a problem selling books is because they don't have the funds necessary to reach their 'target' markets. Posting an online promo at your own website or Goodreads is a good way to reach a small number of readers. However, it is a crap shoot guessing if the right people will see your promo. Directly 'targeting'--or more specifically--marketing an ad to the very people who are looking for the kinds of book you write is a far more effective way to market your book. In fact, the reason why you have to pay for an ad, is because the powers that be KNOW that if you use the appropriate venue, you will dramatically increase your chances of selling your book.
Ultimately, the reason authors like Stephen King and J.K. Rowling are successful authors isn't only because they were discovered by large publishers. Rather, it is because of their publisher's deep pockets. As far as I am concerned, marketing, when used correctly, is a far more valuable tool to getting people interested in your book than simply promoting it. However, it all depends on where you choose to spread the word--or more specifically, where you choose to spend the money to market it.
Gotcha, that's much clearer. makes perfect sense. Instead of spinning my wheels and wasting my time with all this buckshot promo stuff, I need to take out an ad in the Hannibal Daily News. Or, how bout I just send 'em a press release? targeted marketing like you advise, and I still haven't spent any money like I prefer. Damn, why didn't I think of this before? Thanks Kev. Check your email for a smash discount code.
In reply to Guido, print on demand is a production method and does not have to equate with vanity publishing--an altogether different issue.In today's business world it makes more sense than printing a warehouse full of books before there's a demand for the product.
I agree, J.R., that it is a production method, of course, but it reflects a certain mindset that has no place in the real publishing world because it is anything but cost effective. It may make sense for an individual who can't afford a mass print run but from a business standpoint it's money thrown out the window.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree. How can it be cost effective to produce a ton of books for which no market has been established?More publishers--even main stream--are turning to print on demand today. It simply makes for sense from a business standpoint.
Having a base cost of $15 per unit when the SRP is $20 makes no business sense at all. When publishers do print-on-demand it's a completely different beast than some indie author doing a createspace product. The processes are not comparable at all.
Jason Dark... that sounds awesome. I have to check that series out.Kevis, you misunderstand the difference of marketing and advertising. As a marketing guy who makes the bulk of my money advising and creating marketing campaigns, I have to clarify that advertising and promotion are the same thing. Marketing is completely different.
Advertising and promotion costs money. No doubt about it. At some point, you will have to pay for some form of advertising to reach a broader audience.
However, Marketing is all about building traction with the audience that are already in your demographic, introducing yourself to people who are outside of your demographic without the pressure of a sale and sustaining that new relationship over time. I can do the marketing in my sleep.
It's why I'm in the same boat as Guido already. I spend sooooo much time helping my clients with their marketing that I had to learn all over again how to write.
J. I advise my clients all the time. Do not spend all that money on a full page ad without your marketing strategies already in place. In today's overcrowded marketplace, ads are only effective with either oversaturation or if it prompts a series of contacts with the prospective buyer. It's possible with one ad, but so many other things have to be in place to support it.
My concern is the distribution outlets. Guido, what was your experience with distributors. Fifteen years ago, I went door-to-door like an encyclopedia salesman to independent bookstores and sold a shitload of books, which led me into magazines and then into business writing. Now, I'm trying to get back to fiction and the indies have all been demolished by a Wal-Mart wrecking ball.
Yasheve,You are correct to point out that marketing encompasses a wider range of activities beyond advertising. My goal was to explain to J that by overlooking the option to pay for publicity for his book, he is limiting his ability to reach a larger pool of potential readers. With that said, one must always be careful where one chooses to pay to promote one's book, since it could easily lead to throwing money down the drain.
Guido wrote: "Having a base cost of $15 per unit when the SRP is $20 makes no business sense at all. When publishers do print-on-demand it's a completely different beast than some indie author doing a createspac..."I'm not sure I get your base cost figures. And I am talking publishers, not indie authors. Doing a print run, labor to move it to storage, cost of storage, marketing to find customers for your product all entail big outlays of cash. Printing as demand comes in has to be the cheaper alternative.
Guido wrote: "Having a base cost of $15 per unit when the SRP is $20 makes no business sense at all. When publishers do print-on-demand it's a completely different beast than some indie author doing a createspac..."Just to clarify - POD costs have dropped dramatically. Cost per book is usually in the $3-6 range for the printer. POD is becoming more prevalent because it is more cost effective than warehousing thousands of books that may never sell. Large print runs are reserved for authors that have proven they can sell that many.
I'm with a small publisher who does everything POD. It makes sense for them. My cost for a printed book, including all of the publisher's markup, is about $12 per copy. I can sell it for whatever I want beyond that.
BTW, my husband has been in the phone book publishing industry for 20+ years. Printing technology has changed almost completely in that time. Print runs can be smaller, faster, and still be cheaper per unit than they used to.
Jaleta,I hear you, but at the same time it just underscores my point. A $12 per book base cost is way too high to allow for proper revenues unless you totally overprice your SRP or accept that you simply do not make nearly as much money on a sale as you could/should.
But again, everyone needs to run their business how they see fit and sometimes priorities define how you run it. If someone doesn't have the money to lay out the money in front to produce a large print run that would bring the cost down, going print on demand is certainly the only alternative they have. I mean, I am not above that myself, but throughout I know that it is simply bad business.
It must be a misprint, or a miscommunication, or a misunderstanding. $12 per book is impossible.
$12 per book is my discounted price as the author. I have no idea what the publisher pays the printer. I do know my cost also includes the editor's fee, marketing and promotion, etc. The physical cost of printing is only one piece of the total cost to produce a book.For a good-quality trade paperback, $12/book author cost is perfectly reasonable.
Even back in the day when I was doing regular print runs, I never paid that much per book. WOW!
I think we're talking about two different things here. I believe Jaleta is saying she is being charged $12 per book when she buys it form her publisher, whereas we are talking about the actual cost of a book when you actually have it printed yourself.
Jaleta, who are you dealing with? does your book have color? Is the cover done in gold leaf?
Jaleta wrote: "$12 per book is my discounted price as the author. I have no idea what the publisher pays the printer. I do know my cost also includes the editor's fee, marketing and promotion, etc. The physical c..."If you will check Creatspace.com you can go to the section that quotes author prices and the cost for a 200+ page book when purchased by the author is a little over three dollars. I think I am not understanding what we are talking about either. Be sure to check the pro-plan price. This is the one I use.
Thank you, Guido. We *are* talking two very different things. When you self-publish, you don't count the cost of all the other things that go into producing a book. You only look at the actual print costs. I'm talking my discounted price for a copy of my book, not the publisher's print cost. If you've priced trade-paperbacks on Amazon lately, $12 is a steal of a price.
Sorry, Guido, but it makes no sense to print, ship and store books anymore. Because it was always done that way doesn't make it better. POD is smart, cheaper and greener.
For some reason you guys seem to think that I am all pro-big-print-run. That is not the case, and I thought I had pointed that out. I am taking kind of a print on demand approach on some of my stuff because in those instances it makes more short term fiscal sense. That, however, doesn't make it a good long-term business decision necessarily.I am certainly not someone to hold on to the past, far from it, and particularly not out of nostalgia, but the fact of the matter remains that there are plenty of scenarii where a good sized print run makes a lot of sense.
As for POD being cheaper, I simply disagree. I have yet to find any POD scenario that results in a per unit cost that is lower than in a larger print run, hands down. It may be cheaper in strictly cashflow terms, but certainly not in costs of goods.
True Guido, large print runs of 1000+ beat POD all to hell. Especially if you don't factor in the cost of those pallets of unsold books stacked up in your living room (grounds for divorce), or in the garage where they get damp and moldy before they get sold.j
Oh, and don't forget to factor in all the freebie, discounted copies for your 'friends'. "HEY, I'm your friend. Don't I get a free copy? Signed?"
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I've commissioned limited print runs for ARCs, and for a 300 page trade paperback the costs would be between $10 and $12 per book. Cafepress used to be a bit cheaper but one had to do ones own formatting.
I've read this thread with some interest, and I would add that Marketing is an essential process for any book to be successful, and promotion is an ingredient of that process. If someone wishes to place an ad in any publication, he/she should first know that the rule of thumb in advertising is: you have to tell the audience a minimum of six times, before they will catch on. That means a minimum of six insertions, and that gets expensive.As for POD, I found it to be very reasonable, when I contracted with the printer, directly. There is no need to go through Lulu or the rest of those outfits, when you can go to the printer on your own. I published in Germany, and printed in the UK. Even with the shipping cost figured in, I spent less than half of what Lulu would have charged, and that did not include their shipping. The quality was better, as well (their Euro printing was being done in Spain, and it was deplorable.)
give an address of printer. like to look into it. thanks
J,I am having my dime novels printed by Central Plains Books (http://www.centralplainsbook.com/). They are an awesome bunch! Not only are they very reasonably priced, but they do go the extra mile to make sure you're happy and get exactly what you're looking for. In addition they were super helpful in accommodating my small print runs. Talk to Becky Pate there and tell her I sent you.
When it comes to promotional materials, such as flyers, inserts, postcards, etc. I am using USA Printing Online (http://usaprintingonline.com/) Again they are a very good bunch. Very responsive when it comes to custom quotes, and they finish their jobs faster than you can say "Go!"
I am very picky when it comes to printing as I was a trained typesetter in another life, with plenty of experience in the print business, and both companies deliver exactly what I want.
Check out their websites and see if maybe these will work for you.
thanks Guido, I'll check it out if I need US printing. I'm not there, so it's difficult for me to do my own distribution. shipping is outrageous, which is why I was interested in KJ's Brit source. But still, I'd have a problem managing it from here. so far eBook and pod is the most practical. and I'm thinking of blowing off print pub altogether for the next one. if it makes any money I can parlay it into a print edition.I'll pass on your print info, though. I have friends in the states that need it
thanks,
j
(lower case j, pls. It separates me on goggle search from all those who have plagiarized me. lol):)
Sorry for the delay, J. I was a bit busy. I use CPI Antony Rowe, in the UK. Here is the contact info, and it wouldn't hurt to say who referred you. They like to know that word-of-mouth works:My contact is Stacy Killon. Her email is: skillon@cpi-group.co.uk. We did have one print hiccup, and they took care of it immediately. I suggest going through two or three proofs, to be comfortable. They have facilities in Eastbourne and Chippenham, if you are close to either. Let me know how you fare with Stacy.
What are your experiences running your publishing company?
Would you advise going this route?
Give me something more than the normal pros; creative control, cutting down the time to see the book in print, etc...