Koontzland - Dean Koontz discussion

I thought this one was just okay. I not only didn't care for any of the characters, but actively disliked most of them, finding them very annoying and unrealistic. Of course, the two teenage boys that are the lead characters are both geniuses, but they certainly don't act like it. In addition to finding the characters annoying, I also found the plot to often be annoying and occasionally frustrating. The story is supposed to be taking place in the 80s, but the dialog and setting description made it seem more like the 50s or 60s, with the protagonist constantly exclaiming "Jeeze!" and saying "sure" as an affirmative answer to questions all the time. The antagonist said "Christ!" all the time. It felt as if Koontz were struggling to come up with some original dialog and tried to imitate the speech and behavior of children of that time period, only to fail miserably. The plot was predictable from the first few chapters. Some of the scenes and dialog in the book made me feel uncomfortable and I don't mean that in a good way. I hated the parents of the protagonist and felt very frustrated when reading about his interactions with them. There was at least one very high tension scene that I think makes the book worth reading. It is the junkyard scene. Overall, I score this one in the upper 2-star range, rounding it up to 3.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "I not only didn't care for any of the characters, but actively disliked most of them, finding them very annoying and unrealistic."

Could you elaborate a bit on that ? I'm interested.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "Of course, the two teenage boys that are the lead characters are both geniuses, but they certainly don't act like it."

Why do you think so ? When I was reading the book I didn't feel that way.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "I also found the plot to often be annoying and occasionally frustrating."

I thought the plot was great. What didn't you like about it ?

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "The story is supposed to be taking place in the 80s, but the dialog and setting description made it seem more like the 50s or 60s, with the protagonist constantly exclaiming "Jeeze!" and saying "sure" as an affirmative answer to questions all the time. The antagonist said "Christ!" all the time. It felt as if Koontz were struggling to come up with some original dialog and tried to imitate the speech and behavior of children of that time period, only to fail miserably."

Isn't "jeeze", "sure", "pooper", "Christ!" and other stuff like that the way kids talk ? Especially in a small town. I really liked the dialogue in this book, because there was none of his notorious humor and lightheaded banter.
Besides, they are just two boys and not two child prodigies - maybe that's why you didn't like them ;)

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "The plot was predictable from the first few chapters. Some of the scenes and dialog in the book made me feel uncomfortable and I don't mean that in a good way.

That's good. It was meant to. As for the predictability the forthcoming conflict between the two boys was rather obvious and the fact didn't bother me.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "I hated the parents of the protagonist and felt very frustrated when reading about his interactions with them.

That's exactly Koontz's point - to make the reader feel Colin's frustration. I think he succeeded.

Plus, this book contains my favorite quote from all Koontz books ever:

"You've got to stay sharp, on your toes, alert. Always look over your shoulder. Always protect yourself. Don't let your guard down for even a second. There are people who will take advantage of you the moment they see you're not in control. The world's filled with people like that. Nearly everyone you meet is like that. We're animals in a jungle, and we've got to be prepared to fight if we want to survive. You can't trust hardly anyone, hardly anyone at all. Even people who are supposed to like you can turn on you faster than you think. Even friends. People who say they love you are the worst, the most dangerous, the most untrustworthy of all. People who say they love you will pounce when they get the chance. You gotta always remember that they're just waiting for the opportunity to get you. Love's a trick. A cover. A way to catch you off guard. Never let down your guard. Never."

Awesome ! and so very true.

Maciek wrote: "Could you elaborate a bit on that ?..."

Sure, but give me a day, because I am extremely busy right now, and I'll address all your questions and points. :-)

No problem :) Maybe some will join us in the meantime.

I'm getting this book through ILL, just taking a while :-) I'll be here in the not too distant future.

Maciek wrote: "Plus, this book contains my favorite quote from all Koontz books ever:..."

A bit of overkill with redundancy, no? repeating himself again and again, saying the same thing over and over again . . . saying the same thing different ways . . .
lol, but I too liked it.

I read it quite some time ago; will re-read and try to contribute.

Tom wrote: "A bit of overkill with redundancy, no? repeating himself again and again, saying the same thing over and over again . . . saying the same thing different ways . . .
lol, but I too liked it. "

Well, if you take into account that the boy is a psychopath he makes surprisingly much sense.
Besides, it's Koontz - when he makes a point he makes a point.LOL

TVOTN is only available in my library in "Three Complete Novels" which includes 'The Voice of the Night', 'Strangers', and 'The Mask'. It's checked out right now; i've placed a request on the item.

And yes Maciek, it IS Koontz afterall.

Maciek wrote: "Could you elaborate a bit on that ?..."

I didn't feel attached to any of the characters. Though I identified in some ways with both Colin and Roy (I suspicion you know some of those ways ;-)), I didn't really care what happened to either of them or any other characters (except during the junkyard scene). They also seemed unrealistic to me in many ways, not only in their dialog, but in their behaviors and mode of thought. Though Koontz is undoubtedly brilliant, he is not a genius, so he fails to truly understand and portray the minds of geniuses, which leads to frustration in (some) readers, such as me. It is stated by Roy when Colin first comes to his house to see the train set that they are both geniuses and it is alluded to throughout the book. The predictability and cheesiness of the plot are what bothered me most. I knew what was coming during the entire book and it was very underwhelming when it did happen. Because of that, I had nothing to which I could look forward. I have never heard any children talk like that (except maybe in movies made or set in the 50s or 60s) and it annoyed me beyond description. They're supposed to be child prodigies (though, technically, prodigies and geniuses are not the same thing), but they don't act or think like them. If Koontz's goal was to make the reader feel uncomfortable for most of the book, then he succeeded with me. It seemed, however, that I felt uncomfortable even when he didn't intend for me to. I think I would have pulled a Roy on Colin's parents if I were Colin. They were indubitably two of the most annoying characters I have ever encountered. You still need to explain to me what happened in your life to make that such a meaningful and insightful quote for you. It reveals a great deal about your psychology and I won't let it go. I will be like your favorite Koontz novel...RELENTLESS. :-D

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "I didn't feel attached to any of the characters. Though I identified in some ways with both Colin and Roy (I suspicion you know some of those ways ;-)), I didn't really care what happened to either of them or any other characters (except during the junkyard scene)."

Well, I can't blame you. Everyone has different preferences. I don't care for most of Koontz's characters, yet this story of these two boys gripped me.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "They also seemed unrealistic to me in many ways, not only in their dialog, but in their behaviors and mode of thought.

The two boys basically serve as two opposites. Koontz is always very bland in describing his characters and defining them as either good or evil, however this book is an exception. The reader at first believes that Roy is a genuine friend of Colin, and his true nature is revealed later in the book. However, Colin is influenced by Roy - it's clearly visible when he observes his sleeping mother and is clearly aroused by her and afraid of what's hapening to him. It's a nice departure from his standard black and white characterization, where everybody's either completely good or extremely evil.


Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "Though Koontz is undoubtedly brilliant, he is not a genius, so he fails to truly understand and portray the minds of geniuses, which leads to frustration in (some) readers, such as me.

Are you a genius ? ;) I agree with you, his precocious children are so bad it hurts. However, I don't think that's the case here.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "It is stated by Roy when Colin first comes to his house to see the train set that they are both geniuses and it is alluded to throughout the book.

I think you missed the point. Roy states that both he and Colin are different from other people. They get good marks at school without trying. They were both TOLD that they are geniuses (and remember that's Roy who says it). Roy is trying to convince Colin that they are BETTER than other people, and thus should look down on them and stick together, because they are above everyone else. Basically, he's trying to convince Colin that by his intelectual and mental superiority over other people he should be fascinated by the same thing that fascinate him. Roy's point is that both he and Colin are of the same kind - and Colin just doesn't know it yet.
It's not a story of two geniuses - just of two boys; one lonesome even nerdy, the other alluring, popular, menacing. Roy is clearly trying to taint Colin by making him his mirror image; he gets the better kick of it because he picked up the most innocent looking, inconspicuous and impopular boy in town - the one least affected by the modern world and all the filth that resides in it. What could give greater satisfaction to the black seducer than a white lamb sheding its purity ?

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "The predictability and cheesiness of the plot are what bothered me most. I knew what was coming during the entire book and it was very underwhelming when it did happen.

Is it cheesy ? Books like Relentless can be considered as cheesy as predictable (I still haven't forgiven you Dean). The plot is in no way cheesy; it's one of his most plausible (and thus scary) stories. Boys like Roy really do exist, and every day they try to entice boys like Colin. The predactibility didn't bother me - it's a Koontz book and I don't think it was supposed to have a twist. We all know how his book end without even reading them.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "I have never heard any children talk like that (except maybe in movies made or set in the 50s or 60s) and it annoyed me beyond description.

As in 99% of all Koontz titles the dialogue is horrible, here it didn't bother me at all. I've been around lots of kids and they talk like and even worse than Colin and Roy. I think that the boys are some of Koontz's most realistic characters. Roy is convincing with his obsession, and Colin is charming with his nerdiness.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "They're supposed to be child prodigies (though, technically, prodigies and geniuses are not the same thing), but they don't act or think like them.

You mean they have to construct a teleporting device ? ;)
I don't think that being told by teachers or evaluators that you are smart actually has anything to do with being smart. Besides, remember that's Roy who says that they are both smarter than other people - why should you believe him ? He's proven to be an unreliable psychopath, so I wouldn't hang onto his every word.
Also, many kids who are primuses at school are actually drug users and closeted psychopaths. Many unpopular, bullied boys are boling inside and one day they explode. Obviously no official statistics carry such data but the fact is rather obvious. Charles Whitman was a popular, well liked boy who excelled at academics and killed 15 people. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were both bullied until they took matters in their hands.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "I think I would have pulled a Roy on Colin's parents if I were Colin. They were indubitably two of the most annoying characters I have ever encountered.

They're not supposed to be nice and charming, you know. Not every family is a happy one. Koontz created them that way, because it makes the reader feel strongly for Colin - and that was his point. After all idealized parents he created this change was more than welcome.
Besides, it's not fiction. Colin's mom and dad exist. They are everywhere.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "You still need to explain to me what happened in your life to make that such a meaningful and insightful quote for you.

Turn on the TV, or browse the internet - search for divorces, child custodies or heritage cases, basically all family affairs. See how people who love each other stab their nearest and dearest in the back. It happens daily.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "It reveals a great deal about your psychology and I won't let it go.

I think it has something to do with my childhood and how my life turned out. Especially my interest in music. I learned to play the guitar growing up as a young rap-scallion in Mississippi but things didn't really take off until I moved to Memphis. Then I met the Colonel and the hits just kept coming. Unfortunately, it went to my head, I gained a lot of weight, starting wearing a white jump suit, and ate tranquilizers like they were trail mix.
Then, in 1977, I died on the toilet.



OR DID I ?

Maciek wrote: "Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "I didn't feel attached to any of the characters. Though I identified in some ways with both Colin and Roy (I suspicion you know some of those ways ;-)), I didn't really c..."

***SPOILER*** I never believed that they were true friends. I knew what Roy was up to from the start with manipulating Colin, trying to remake him in his own image. I did like the aspect of the impure hero that you described, though that scene with his mom sleeping was very disgusting.
I'm not telling. :-P I'll let you decide. ;-)
Yes, I realize it was Roy who said they were geniuses, but I took it on faith as coming from Koontz. No, I didn't miss the point. :-P
Don't be absurd, they don't need to be able to construct teleporting devices, but rather be able to navigate only through mathematical calculation when their eyes are closed. ;-)
I understand the purposes of Colin's parents and that there might be such people in reality. I am simply stating how annoying they are. I loathe them.
I don't want a generic and generalized explanation for why that quote means so much to you, I want the true personal explanation. I know you're not that shallow, King. :-P

***SPOILER***

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: " I never believed that they were true friends. I knew what Roy was up to from the start with manipulating Colin, trying to remake him in his own image.

We all do, but Colin doesn't - and that's what the book is about.
The scene with Colin's mom is meant to be shocking and disgusting.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: " Yes, I realize it was Roy who said they were geniuses, but I took it on faith as coming from Koontz.

But it doesn't come from Koontz - it comes from Roy. Koontz and Roy are two completely different people.

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: " I understand the purposes of Colin's parents and that there might be such people in reality. I am simply stating how annoying they are. I loathe them.

That's good. Now I know why you didn't like the book - it disturbed you ! And that's even better, because being disturbed by a koontz book is a rarity nowadays.

***SPOILER***

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: " I don't want a generic and generalized explanation for why that quote means so much to you, I want the true personal explanation. I know you're not that shallow, King. :-P

It's not generic - it's funny !

The Voice of the Night by Dean Koontz


I'm currently listening to this on Audio. Is there anything supernatural in this one? Nothing so far I'm on hour 3 of 8 of listening - I'm only about 1/3 of the way through. I don't think Koontz would write this kind of stuff anymore.

*SPOILER ALERT*
I was taking my dog for a walk when the narrator got to the part where Colin and Ray are talking about stealing someone's pet dog, tying it it and killing it. Should they shoot it or use a pitchfork to stab it? As I walked I kept watching the bushes for bad boys that might jump out and try to steal my dog. I don't think Dean would write about killing dogs anymore - I mean in the Husband, doesn't he have the dog-walker shot while sparing the dog? Dean also doesn't write about sexuality this graphically anymore. I've given this book a "disturbing" tag, meaning I put it on my bookshelf labeled "disturbing".

What is "a real popper"?

"Jeez!"

*SPOILER ALERT*

Sample passage of conversation:

Roy said, "We could tie the dog up and kill it with a pitchfork."
"Jeez."
"That would be a popper!"

Maciek wrote: "Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "Isn't "jeeze", "sure", "pooper", "Christ!" and other stuff like that the way kids talk ? Especially in a small town. I really liked the dialogue in this book, because there was none of his notorious humor and lightheaded banter."

It's Popper not Pooper. I know what a pooper is - a pooper scooper. What is a popper? is it those peppers with cheese that you eat as an appetizer?
yes, this book is lacking in humor and lightheaded banter. It's written well - it's just Brian Coffey not the Dean that we are used to.

Dustin wrote: "What is "a real popper"?"

You'll find out soon enough. It's disgusting.

Dustin wrote: ""Jeez!""

You'd better get used to hearing that. It about drove me nuts hearing it over and over. I wanted to strangle Colin when he said it.

Dustin wrote: "...I've given this book a "disturbing" tag, meaning I put it on my bookshelf labeled "disturbing"."

Rightfully so.

I'm thinking a "popper" might be sexual but I guess I'll find out soon enough.

I just created my "disturbing" bookshelf today.

Dustin wrote: "I'm thinking a "popper" might be sexual but I guess I'll find out soon enough...."

You'll be wishing it were.

Roy's last name is Borden and I think his cousin is named Lizzie.

I'm interested to see if trains play a more significant part in the story. There is a train on the hardcover copy I own and I think it's Roy's dad who had trains in the garage.

Dustin wrote: "I'm interested to see if trains play a more significant part in the story. There is a train on the hardcover copy I own and I think it's Roy's dad who had trains in the garage."

Something with a train marks the turning point in the book, but I won't say how. :-)

Dustin wrote: "Roy's last name is Borden and I think his cousin is named Lizzie."

She must have been a very distant cousin. :-P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_B...

Roy keeps talking about using an axe doesn't he?

*SPOILER ALERT*
since the Kingman family murders in Santa Leona seem to be fictional, it's pretty clear that Koontz used The Lizzie Borden story to create The Voice of the Night

Here is another horror story I've read featuring Lizzie Borden. Notice the similar titles :-)


In the Dark of the Night by John Saul

Dustin wrote: "...Roy keeps talking about using an axe doesn't he?"

I said a distant cousin because she died a long time before Roy was born. I too thought of the Lizzie Borden story when reading the Kingman family murders in this book. Someone should have told her that the phrase "chop, chop" means to hurry. ;-)

Oh yeah. I keep forgetting this story wasn't set around the same time as Lizzie Borden's life. In The Voice of the Night, they have drive-in movies afterall :-) Lizzie didn't have that source of entertainment.

Lizzie Borden took an axe
And gave her mother forty whacks.
When she saw what she had done
She gave her father forty-one.

Dustin wrote: "Lizzie Borden took an axe
And gave her mother forty whacks.
When she saw what she had done
She gave her father forty-one."

I think you mean "...when he saw..." unless Lizzie's father was like the Pollard children's mother. :-D

no, Lizzie is the she. Lizzie whacked her mother then whacked her father. It's an old rhyme - maybe she was in some sort of mental state and then she realized what she had done and turned on her father - I don't know exactly about the wording but I understand what you mean about Mother Pollard :-)

Dustin wrote: "no, Lizzie is the she. Lizzie whacked her mother then whacked her father. It's an old rhyme - maybe she was in some sort of mental state and then she realized what she had done and turned on her fa..."

I'm familiar with the poem, I just figured she killed her father once HE saw what she had done, so that he couldn't tell on her. I think SHE would have realized what she was doing at some point before the 40th whack.

I guess that's debatable :-) all I know is the poem says SHE so that's my take for what it's worth :-)

This book is easily one of his most disturbing titles, and that's why it's a real popper. Dustin, I can't wait to hear your opinion on this one. After finishing you can read some of the stuff me and Jason disussed at the beginning of the thread, it might interest you.

http://www.poppers.com/

[image error]

www.bordenorganic.com
www.bordenonline.com

Welcome to the Lizzie Borden Bed & Breakfast
http://www.lizzie-borden.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBIcWr...

Are you okay, Dustin? :-/

I'm fine - just disturbed :-)

Actually, at this point I would rate the book 5 stars but I'm only about 1/2 of the way through it.

Dustin wrote: "Actually, at this point I would rate the book 5 stars but I'm only about 1/2 of the way through it."

I'm glad you're enjoying it so much. :-)

I'm sure you think I've got a twisted mind if I'm enjoying The Voice of the Night :-) I'm actually finding myself laughing quite a bit listening to this on audio. Every time "Jeez" is said, I start laughing. They also did that strange phone sound effect which I first experienced listening to Lightning. I even laughed during the junkyard scene which you warned me about. Of course, I've still got a ways to go so we'll see.

Dustin wrote: "...Every time "Jeez" is said, I start laughing...."

Hmm, every time I heard it, I wanted to scream and cry.

I wonder if your audio was the same narrator - I think it's the voice of the narrator is using that really gets me :-) The narrator on mine is Patrick Girard Lawlor - it's by Brilliance Audio 2008 (Library Edition)

Jason "plasborgma" wrote: "Dustin wrote: "...Every time "Jeez" is said, I start laughing...."

Hmm, every time I heard it, I wanted to scream and cry."

And here I am, thinking how it's one of the few books of his books where the dialogue didn't bother me. LOL!