Jane Austen discussion

In Penguin Classics edition, this is pp. 164-235.

I wanted to say a little more about what I mentioned about Margaret in some of our beginning thoughts of this discussion. I went back to John's proposal scene to look at it.

When Margaret refuses John, she is disturbed greatly that he hasn't proposed as some honorable act after the riot, she realizes -- good heavens -- he really loves me. That is the shock. These reactions aren't due to John's handling of this. Margaret realizes again full mental force of her being a woman and the attractions between them, and she cannot deal with that and keeps all hidden even to herself. Margaret's whole language here is over the top. She calls John blasphemous and not a gentlemen. She says she does not care to understand him and use phrases like "fancied obligation."

I don't think this is ALL about her class and southern snobbery. This is about herself and her womanhood, her sexuality. So for Margaret, it's there, but it is not there. In the early parts of the story there is no admission of her fascination with John. My gosh I don't read many novels today that so well describe (without ridiculous inessentials) a true physical fascination of two people also. So amazing to me that this was written by a woman so long ago. I thought women in those days only thought about polite parlor things like knitting (ha ha, BIG sarcastic smile)

Sarah wrote: "I wanted to say a little more about what I mentioned about Margaret in some of our beginning thoughts of this discussion. I went back to John's proposal scene to look at it.

When Margaret refuses..."

Well said, Sarah! I think you are absolutely correct.

Sarah wrote: "Margaret realizes again full mental force of her being a woman and the attractions between them, and she cannot deal with that and keeps all hidden even to herself..."

I think you are on to something Sarah.

It is quite odd the way Margaret is so unaware of herself as a woman. She has just witnessed her cousin go through the courting and marriage processes, and yet she is blind to the potentiality of a relationship and marriage of her own. She is completely caught unaware by two proposals and seems to be almost offended by them. It is strange to me that a woman of that time and in her financial situation would be so oblivious to the possibility or even necessity of marriage. After all, there is little that indicates she would have any money to live on after the death of her parents. I could appreciate her apparent indifference to matrimony if she were to have a desire to be independent and not beholden to the wifely duties of the institution or to a man. However, her complete lack of self-awareness comes across as immature and almost irresponsible.

edited to correct spelling errors. I typed this up using the goodreads app on my iPhone, and so didn't have the luxury of a spellchecker! Glad I re-read it now :)

Alicia had also recently commented on this in the other thread too. Alicia made a good point that in the case of John's proposal, his intensity leaves her to feel that feelings such as that are blasphemous. That may be the case, because I keep looking at the environment in which she was raised. Influenced by both her father's household and that of her aunt. As daughter of a minister and also the girl who always played second fiddle to her lovely cousin in London, also in the strictures of the era, she may have not felt herself naturally grow into womanhood.

But something about Margaret DOES allow her to reach out to challenge John's views, get to know the viewpoint of the mill workers, defend John in front of the mob of workers. So this steps out of a meek role IMO. So maybe you have something Joy in saying it is lack of self-awareness. Margaret is really capable of all these things and embracing an independent role AND her attraction to John. I don't want to throw a spoiler here though or I would say more about how I feel Margaret's view of marriage seems.

Sarah wrote: "Alicia had also recently commented on this in the other thread too. Alicia made a good point that in the case of John's proposal, his intensity leaves her to feel that feelings such as that are bl..."

Thanks Sarah, I just skimmed the Beginning the Discussion thread because I didn't want to see spoilers. I will have to go back through once I am finished with the book

Sarah wrote: "Influenced by both her father's household and that of her aunt. As daughter of a minister and also the girl who always played second fiddle to her lovely cousin in London, also in the strictures of the era, she may have not felt herself naturally grow into womanhood. "

I think that the environment in which Margaret was raised is a very important aspect to consider as well, Sarah. Although the wealth and social status of her aunt allows Margaret to enjoy a more comfortable life in many ways, I do also think that her position as an outsider (regardless of how loved or welcome she was by her aunt and cousin, she can never be completely one of them, and thus has to remain an outsider in more ways than one) does have a significant impact on Margaret. As you say, she plays second fiddle to her cousin and perhaps their subtle, or not so subtle, inequalities of their lives, as they live side by side, contributes to Margaret not focusing on her own maturing into her womanhood. It is difficult to ascertain exactly what Margaret's perspective of herself is, which perhaps contributes to my, as a reader, seeing her as having a lack of self-awareness.

Sarah wrote: "But something about Margaret DOES allow her to reach out to challenge John's views, get to know the viewpoint of the mill workers, defend John in front of the mob of workers. So this steps out of a meek role IMO."

However, Margaret does seem well aware of her own intellectual capabilities and rather comfortable in her authority to exert her mind (and mouth!). Perhaps due to her father's encouragement of education, in addition to the lack of focus at her Aunt's home on Margaret becoming 'accomplished' as her cousin needed to in order to catch a husband. Margaret has an interesting (and refreshing) confidence and skill in her mental faculties and a lack in her social maneuverings.

I think another reason why she's so unaware of herself and sexuality as a woman is because everyone is always putting her down about something.

In Chapter 25 there is a discussion about beds and Mrs. Hale thinks Margaret had tried one as a child but in all actuality it was Frederick. They go on comparing the two and how Margaret was so ugly as a baby, that Frederick has the greatest personality; her father always calls her proud. Nobody every says Margaret you're beautiful, you are intelligent, fun to talk to - whatever it is you want to say. I just keep reading negative things hurled her way and I think that it's played into her thinking yes I'm a woman but nobody looks at me as more.

Kim, those are very good points about Margaret. I think there is real dysfunction in the Hale family and Margaret seems to be the one who suffered the most. I am not sure why she would have been sent away to live so much with her aunt's family, but even if she had stayed, her mother just didn't seem to have the right connection or seemingly very nurturing parenting going on.

And maybe it was seen as a great advantage to Margaret to live in town and all, but she was always in the shadow of her lovely cousin there too. With the exception of Henry, she seems very overlooked.

Totally agree with you Sarah. She was overlooked by everyone. I feel so bad for her. I think this is one of the reasons why she had a good friendship with Bessy Higgins. Bessy was all about telling Margaret how nice she was, how pretty her clothes were, that she was an angel. I was glad to see someone appreciating Margaret.

I also think a lot of her proudness(?) is due to the fact that nobody corrected it! As you said she was overlooked. Nobody noticed that she was the way she was. Her parents sometimes say things like oh you're too proud Margaret, but no one does anything to try and correct it. So strange.