The Mighty Pen Writing Club discussion

Cliches and Stereotypes! Do you love them or hate them? Why? Do you often use them in your own writing, or how do you avoid them?
Id love to know if cliches make you frustrated and mad, or if you love the easy imaginings?

It depends on the kind of the cliche I suppose. I mean, the cliche where every guy is sexually attracted to the heroine is kinda annoying (*couch* Sookie *cough*) since it is kind of hard to relate to that.

that's so true!
And, to a lesser extent, that makes me think of love triangles. Like, if a girl doesn't have at least 2 guys chasing her, she must be a total loser.

Ooh yes, to all of you!

I dont want to read one more book about vampires who come out in day light, or fallen angels, or a girl attracted to a supernatural being.
And love-triangles are a no-no too me.

None of that is in my story.

The romance in my trilogy of books, is a female attracted to a male, and vise versa.
Neither of them are vampires. Neither of them cheat on one another.
Though romance is only a sub-plot/feature.

Two of my books actually feature a scenario in which a girl (eventually) falls in love with a "supernatural being" (fairies). But both of them are SUBPLOTS. As in, the main driving force of the stories is ACTION!
And certainly no love-triangles - geesh, I'm sick of those!

I am accepting of the fact that my romances (particularly in the first story) may be deemed "boring," but then again, I really don't see what's wrong with having a boy and girl who are genuinely in love with each other. I don't really feel the need to throw in "trouble in paradise!" scenarios just to make it interesting. No, these two characters wouldn't do that to each other. And in the second story, it's being developed as a trilogy, and the MCs don't even get together until book 2. In a similar fashion to the PJ series, the romance is only a subplot and only develops gradually over the series. Certainly none of this "love at first sight" business. And of course, the two can't really get along at first. Like kids in real life, they have to learn to get along as friends first, then romantic feelings develop gradually.

I've accepted the fact that my romances might be considered 'boring' by some, but at this point, I'm writing it the way I want to. :P
Hopefully publishers won't make me weigh it down with stupid other scenarios in order to force (unnecessary) conflict

Nice work, Amelia!
That sounds good! It sounds like a normal romance, that you dont see anymore,
Im glad you dont have love triangles. That is over done, and hard to relate too.
And even better you dont have any creepy love-quadrangles.
You know what im talking about. That was scary.

And your story sounds kinda like mine! In a way.
Mine is a trilogy, too.
The MC dont get together untill book 2, and thats just a subplot anyway.
In the third book they get married. That too, is a subplot.

aww huzzah for marriage
:P

hahaha that's funny, cause (as a blonde) I hate the "blonde girl is a bitch" stereotype, and the sweet, lovable down-to-earth MC is a brunette. Now don't get me wrong, brunettes are great, but it seems that there aren't as many blonde MCs - they're all too busy being mean, bitchy cheerleaders.

Oh and as a former cheerleader, I don't like THAT stereotype either!

You are kidding, right? There are actually people like that? Oh my God, who do they think they are?
By the way, Joanna, a friend of mine, is blond and not a bitch. she's pretty clever too and at times insecure about herself.

One of my friends is a blonde, and she is soooooo nice :)
But I also know a blonde who is really, really stupid.
And come to think of it Amelia, there are not a lot of blonde MC's.
Oh, with the exception of Allie in Everlost. She isnt drop dead gorgeous, and she isnt stupid.
EVERLOST is a remarkable book. Its so unlike anything ive read.
And on the subject of hair color, the villain is a brunette :P

But hair color doesn't define a person's character.

I utterly agree with the annoyance of the whole 'irresistible heroine' cliché!

But I really enjoy the whole human - supernatural romance! & although I would watch/read anything with that kind of romance I don’t plan on EVER watching/reading Twilight...
My mind just keeps going back to Anne Rice's vampires & how diverse & complex they are & how there is nothing (that I have seen/read) like that anymore...
Not only was the Vampire Lestat the one falling hopelessly in love & being rejected!
He was bisexual! Now THAT is un- cliché!!

I'm seeing a lot of books that seem to imply the message that if a boy does anything - ANYTHING - to help the girl character out, it's because he thinks she's weak or incompetent and is therefore "bad."
So what you have are books in which the girl absolutely refuses all help from the boy character, or books in which the boy character is stupid and hopeless and needs the girl to save him. Now personally, I think that's incredibly stupid and unfair. Boys should help girls out, and girls need to not act like they can solve every problem on their own. I don't know - it's just that attitude that gets on my nerves....like authors are trying to reverse a stereotype by CREATING another stereotype.

Amelia (Imagination in Focus) wrote: "I'm seeing a lot of books that seem to imply the message that if a boy does anything - ANYTHING - to help the girl character out, it's because he thinks she's weak or incompetent and is therefore "..."

Totally agree. That stereotype is super annoying.

I hate the "Life is Pointless Without A Man" stereotype.

I despise, with a passion, when girls aren't independent and feel as though they need a man in order to be happy or to feel valuable. I mean, I'm all for dating or having a crush on a guy, but when it gets to the point where you feel worthless without a boyfriend in general, then I get upset.

Amelia (Imagination in Focus) wrote: "I'm seeing a lot of books that seem to imply the message that if a boy does anything - ANYTHING - to help the girl character out, it's because he thinks she's weak or incompetent and is therefore "..."

I really need to stop agreeing with you!
And adding onto that, i hate female MCs who are super feminist, and believe they can do everything themselves with no help.
Im not saying they cant, but the way they are portrayed as independent and viewing boys as 'an annoyance' is really frustrating to read about.

Soda wrote: "Poindextεrr. wrote: "I hate the "Life is Pointless Without A Man" stereotype.

I despise, with a passion, when girls aren't independent and feel as though they need a man in order to be happy o..."

Thank you!!! Finally someone agrees with me! I mean, if my boyfriend suddenly left, heck yeah I'd be sad and confused but my life wouldn't be over!

One of the main reasons I didn't like Bella was because she wasn't independent AT ALL.

Another cliche I don't like:

-Loser Girl Dates Popular Boy and Suddenly is Miss Popularity and Has The Perfect Life

A MILLION TIMES BETTER!!!

If a guy doesn't want me, that's not my problem. And if I'm not enough to make you stay then GOODBYE.

High five, Soda. *raises palm*

Soda wrote: "Poindextεrr. wrote: "Soda wrote: "Poindextεrr. wrote: "I hate the "Life is Pointless Without A Man" stereotype.

I despise, with a passion, when girls aren't independent and feel as though they ne..."

haha, I didn't think Bella was only depressed because Edward left, but because she lost a whole world. For instance, think what you would do if your whole sport team suddenly left without ever talking to you after with no other people you want to be friends with. That said, I thought Bella took it too far.

In my opinion, everyone is so interconnected (especially in books) that the loss of one person SHOULD throw off the MC. But they have to get over it.

agreed!
If I had a boyfriend, who i knew for how long? A month or so? and he dumped me, i wouldent do nothing for 4 months.

"Me and my boyfriend went to a romantic diner last night. Then he took me out to see a wonderful film"

"HAHA! Well my boyfriend took of his shirt to show me how he sparked."

hahahaha Amber :)

Bella: "Help! Voldemort killed my boyfriend!"

You know what's funny?
When I was reading the TWILIGHT series, I remember thinking that Bella was too obsessed with Edward, and it didn't make sense to me why she totally came undone when he left.
I've only read the series once, and that was nearly 2 years ago.

But I just read this other book a few months ago, and a similar scenario happened (boy left) but the girl kinda got on with her life a little too easily (in my opinion). I remember thinking, "ummm, I thought you were in love with this guy, so why are you acting like such a skank?"
I guess I'm finally coming around to defending Bella a little. If you're truly in love, I don't think you can get over someone. Now if they were unkind to you or something extreme like that, maybe... but that really wasn't the case in the TWILIGHT series. It was more of a "I'm so dangerous and the best way to protect you is to leave you totally vulnerable!"
The reason that annoyed me was that it didn't make sense, but I actually understood why Bella was so devastated. I think it's just because she's such an annoying character, and we had to read like 34509734985723987423987423 pages worth of "Edward is gone...woe is me...Edward is gone...boo hoo."

yes. That was annoying.
Even with Jacob. Cool, stylish Jacob Black full of attitude and awesomeness, Whiney Bella still thought: OH EDWARD! WHERE ARE YOU!?!?!?!?!?!?!
HE told her he 'didnt like her.' and 'didnt want her'
Yet when she found Jacob, she still wanted Eddie.
I understand shes in love, but still...

hahahahahaha :)

LOL AWESOME!!!

Yaise!! Cedric Lives!!

Aww man that sucks. I hate when I do something worthwhile but it goes unnoticed. -__-

YAISE!

Jillian -always aspiring- wrote: "Amelia (Imagination in Focus) wrote: "You know what's funny?
When I was reading the TWILIGHT series, I remember thinking that Bella was too obsessed with Edward, and it didn't make sense to me wh..."

You brought up an excellent point. Because he was most definitely her soul mate, her actions make better sense. And I most definitely believe teens can find soul mates at their age. Sure it doesn't happen a lot, but it can happen. I get a little annoyed when people dismiss what Bella and Edward had on account of their age. Now, I think that Bella fell for Edward a little quickly in TWILIGHT, but it doesn't always take upwards of years to get to know people, so whatever. But just because they're teens? Nah.

Soda wrote: "*sucks teeth* I'm not the biggest fan of the books. But as far as the movies go, I am die- hard team Jacob.
But story wise, there is no real connection between Edward and Bella save lust.
She wou..."
Lust is all about sex, not about personality. Edward says in Midnight Sun that he's INITIALLY attracted to Bella because of her selflessness. She gives up being where she loves so her mom can be with Phil. Edward can't quite wrap his mind around that, and tries to talk to her more so he can understand her. That does not suggest that all he feels is lust. Bella...she seems to be more physically attracted, but that doesn't mean that his control and understanding and pure "different-ness" doesn't fascinate her. Plus, he saved her life, always a bonus.

Also, Bella didn't just lose her soul mate. She lost the world that later (in Breaking Dawn) she's told she seemed to be made for. Imagine if you were the only one who wrote, then you met some others who wrote stories too, then they all left but you couldn't tell anyone about writing. That's why when Jacob knows about the Cullens being vampires it's a relief to Bella because she can talk about them, she doesn't have to worry she imagined it all. For my example it would be like meeting someone who reads: they can talk about stories, but it's not the same as being with others who write.

Jacob in that last scene telling Bella he's better for her actually shows up his youth quite a bit. The whole "I'll fight for you until you're married, and maybe even after that" means that he doesn't get commitment: something Bella took the whole book to learn. I'm totally not saying Bella's perfect: she hurt both Edward and Jacob in her attempt to not be the stereotypical girl married out of hs, and nervousness to commit for life. But I get where both of them are coming from.

Jillian -always aspiring- wrote: "Also -- the more I thought about the imprinting, the more I thought that it was supposed to happen that way. How do we know that in the big picture of things, Jacob wasn't drawn to Bella simply BECAUSE Renesmee would come to exist through her? It's something to consider."

Jacob and Nessie wasn't just tacked on for the fans. That's been in the story from the start. In Forever Dawn Jacob imprinted on her as well, and that was written before New Moon. I totally agree with this, Jilllian, and I'm pretty sure that that's the way Stephenie wrote it to be. After all, even Jacob says that as Bella's stomach got bigger, the more drawn to her he was. Besides, it's not like Jake's like "hey, you're born, let's get married in the morning!" It's how he explained it to Bella: you are what the person you imprint on needs. Friend, brother, protecter, and then when they're old enough and if they feel the same: soul mate.
I'm not actually obsessed with these books anymore, I just don't think people give them enough credit sometimes. I feel like I owe a lot to Stephenie Meyer. She really got the YA industry to go to the next level. (Harry Potter really started it, as far as I can tell. ;)

I used to want Bella and Jake to be together but I soon realized that Bella isn't even good enough for Jacob! Hmph. xP

And you're right, Soda. Those who are obsessed with Twilight and think it's the best book ever are either seriously book-deprived or have extremely bad taste.

Soda wrote: "While I do think that twilight has brought back ya reAding, I don't think it had really broadened anybody's horizons. The people who become overly obsessed with twilight go on to read what?"

Well, when I was overly obsessed with Twilight I started reading the Darkest powers, Evil genius, The Avatar Sequence, Life as we Knew it, The Moon Riders, The Red Necklace, A Matter of Profit, The Last Knight, and other great books. I started reading just about anything I could get my hands on. I read before, but I read like it was my religion after Twilight. You can't give a blanket statement like that, because most people I know that started reading because of Twilight read very widely.

No, I don't think it's "destiny" for Jake and Nessie to be together. I think it's planned from the start. (I'm with Prince Dastan from Prince of Persia. I believe we make our own destinies. ;) In the back of the special edition of Breaking Dawn Stephenie is asked what's the difference between Breaking Dawn and Forever Dawn and Stephenie said, "Bella and Edward get married, Renesmee, IMPRINTING, and then the final scene with the Volturi is very much the same as Forever Dawn. All of those things were in place with the story by fall of 2003." (emphasis is mine.)
I don't think Twilight's the best book ever, I just think that just because the book went a direction you personally wouldn't go doesn't mean it's terrible. I think that people (in general) throw out the baby with the bathwater too much. Take the good stuff, learn from the bad and like it for the flawed novel that every novel is.

Oh, and Jillian, I LOVE your last paragraph!

DON'T GIVE UP, SODA!!

STAND YOUR GROUND!!!

What do you mean win? It's not a contest, I just disagreed with what you said and backed up why.

It's not really a debate, because no one is trying to change anyone's minds, right?
And I was just skimming through the conversation, and everybody had good points.
However, I have to throw my support to Jess and Jillian, especially when Jess mentioned all the YA books that (if I understood correctly) TWILIGHT seemed to open the door to. I was the same way. I read HP and the first ARTEMIS FOWL, but I really wasn't into YA (or MG) until the TWILIGHT series. With the exception of a few books, I mostly read YA, and I think that's because the TWI series sparked my interest in it again. Also, I love Stephenie to pieces. I love who she is and consider her such a great role model, so that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about her series, too (even if I have only read it once).

I know this will sound random compared to the current topic but I just want to say that Im not fond of the whole "Angels Vs. God" cliche ... Im a fan of "supernatural" but when they did the whole Angels vs. other angels etc... I lost intrest...

Shush231 wrote: "I know this will sound random compared to the current topic but I just want to say that Im not fond of the whole "Angels Vs. God" cliche ... Im a fan of "supernatural" but when they did the whole A..."

me too! I won't read any more angels stories (unless they're CF, but even then probably not because I don't really like that genre).

Totally agree with the whole angel stories. I prefer not to have my characters attacking religion. grrr...
I liked the Outsiders ok, but I HATED my teacher at the time. (I still haven't forgiven her for the whole yearbook incident.)

actually, I only thought the MI series was so-so.

Ahh! I love the MI. Some of my favorite books. Ever.
Haha, Magnus is pretty awesome. He's one of my favorite characters.

Amelia (Imagination in Focus) wrote: "Shush231 wrote: "I know this will sound random compared to the current topic but I just want to say that Im not fond of the whole "Angels Vs. God" cliche ... Im a fan of "supernatural" but when the..."

I actually don’t mind the Angels, as long as they get them right, I saw "Legion" & they had the Angel Michael as closer to God then the Angel Gabriel, & they made Gabriel a stronger fighter... I don’t know about the exact details in Christianity but in my religion Gabriel is closer to God & he is a messenger Angel that doesn’t mean he's weaker then Michael... I don’t know I guess I'm just picky I’m the same with Greek/Roman Mythology!

I logged on after some time and saw there were 92 unread posts on this topic. *Groans* Read until a bit after Soda said about the "Centric Diggory lives" thing. Found it hilarious.
Still, have to say that Twilight DID introduce me to YA novels though not the best one I've read. Bella annoyed me A LOT. Eddie did too at points.
Like, I'm reading Hush,hush now. I really find creepy the stalking part in a romantic kind of way. Still creepy though...
Annoying cliche. Hmm. Like, when the MC has done something wrong and they don't apologise. Whether that is the heroine or the (occasionally badass) guy...

hmm... Opinions... Im sure Im gonna regret saying this as it seems there are alot of die hard fans of twilight in this group so pleeeeeeeeeez dnt take this personaly but I just dont get the attraction (I hvnt read or seen any of it) Ive seen the trailers it all seems so cliche! vamps Vs. wolvs, Couple Vs. Coven, & throw in a typical love triangle! its a catacomb of cliches & bad acting!

I Come in Peace & dont mean to offend any1 just my humble opinion.

Loool sorry I didnt comment on ur comment coz I realy didnt get many of the references other then the cliche that a gay jocks is somehow less of a jock which I dont think is remotly close to the trueth in fact it has nothing to do with what it takes to be a good jock that is in my opinion physical ability & a natural instinct... do u agree?

Oh p.s. I totaly have no prob w/shirtless wolves :D

At least they are being true to who they are here in the middle east I know alot of totaly straight gurls that pretend to be gay just to spite thier families... I dont like lables if your a girl & u fall in love w/a gurl or a boy that should be becoz of who that person is not what gender they are... its 2am here am I still making sense?

I agree completely Soda! ;)

I hate it when the author feels like they have to pull in every minority to make everyone happy. It feels wishy-washy, you know what I mean?

Amen to that!