Heathens, Pagans and Witches discussion

Does magic (in any form other than the stage magic/sleight of hand) play a part in your practice of paganism?

If yes, do you use a form linked to your paganism, or something completely different?

lol

Absolutely

I don't practice magic in any formal sense. I've never been entirely comfortable with the idea.

Has anyone else had trouble with "page not found" when trying to link from the email to here?

Most neo-Pagans, and especially Wiccans, practice what they consider to be real magic (sometimes spelled magick), which is a psychic discipline involving intense concentration and props like candles. Since I don't practice it, I will not comment on its effectiveness, but it is an important part of most neo-Pagan religion.

Not at all. I'm not going to insult my friends and co-religionists by denying their sincere beliefs. I don't even do that to my enemies. And, for all I know, it does work.

Neo-Pagans generally believe that magic works and is real. Stage magicians will always tell you that they practice illusion, not magic. Neo-Pagan believers are trying to practice real magic, that is, to change the world in a real way by these means. I consider myself a neo-Pagan (for a definition, stop by www.neopagan.net/PaganDefs.html) and I do not categorically exclude the possibility.

The spelling is a deliberate archaicism, evoking the ancient philosophers and alchemists.

BTW, the owner of the website referenced above is very ill and needs prayers/spells/donations. I don't know him personally, but he's a legend in the Pagan community.

I practice natural magic frequently. I love using the wind, earth, air and fire because it's always there and usually all you need. That and personal power!
I do use herbs and other things but if I don't have it I don't fret. I use what I have and put it out into the universe hoping the end result will be the same.
Although I have a friend who is the complete opposite of me. She follows the ingredients/spell wordsd to the T and if she's out of something she doesn't go through with it.
Goes to show everyone's different, but I consider that to be a good thing. :)

Lavender wrote: "Has anyone else had trouble with "page not found" when trying to link from the email to here?"

I certainly haven't.

I feel like I need to mention Isaac Bonewits departure from the earthly plane this morning. If you've never heard of him, here's a link to one of the many obituaries and eulogies that are on the web now: http://wildhunt.org/blog/

His book "Real Magic" is one of the seminal works of modern neo-paganism. In fact, he coined the word "neo-paganism." I am a neo-pagan because he (with Oberon Zell) coined the word and helped to create the concept. His website, so long as his wife Phaedra is willing to maintain it, is at http://www.neopagan.net. If you buy his books, it will help her out; his illness devastated them financially.

Was unsure whether to post this question here or on the "Ritual" thread...
What is more important in your practice, ritual or result?

Yes. To me magic is energy. I use magic of the heart and of the hands, thought and action. I am non-ritualistic, yet there are times that I channel it.

Practice, ritual or result? Perhaps in this case all three, but as I said, I'm not so into rituals, other than my own spontaneous ones.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "What is more important in your practice, ritual or result?"

Result is the most important. Ritual is for when I have time, otherwise I just get things done.

And ritual can be as simple, as needed. I've looked into Crowley's work and rituals, and I have to say, I think it's all rather male--a bit TOO devoted to attention to detail. And regarding the certain branches of his rituals that I have found to be interesting, I would say that thinking about the concept of ritual, at such a moment, would defeat the purpose, which is the channeling of energy.

I think women's magic is wilder, and more spontaneous. We all have our own rituals. They come from the heart.

As a twenty four year old, ex-art school student ( with no proper job) I regularly mowed the lawn for a Christian lady who was close to death. (I've also worked for many years as a Nurse's Aid in dementia, and aged care wards).

Each morning this Christian lady gathered the fallen sticks from her tree, and made a cross, which she then laid under the tree.

At the time I was reading about past wrongs, and although I respected what she was doing, I distrusted the religion behind it. (I'm from good Pagan stock, UK and Germany, neither side Christians).

But now I see that there really is no difference. She was readying for the new path she was about to travel, through her ritual. It was truly beautiful to see. All ways are valid and good.

Georgina wrote: "I think women's magic is wilder, and more spontaneous. We all have our own rituals. They come from the heart."

I believe you're right. And it's strange that you should mention twigs - two days ago I sat under an oak tree and made a Wheel of the Year on the ground from fallen twigs. I think I'm preparing for the task of making the stone one in the overgrown garden.

Lovely post, Georgina :)

I love the thought of your overgrown garden. The Wheel made from oak twigs sounds beautiful too. My husband made an osier heart with our initials entwined for us when he was courting me (it was a courting to, lots of picnics, walks to pick mushrooms, delightful dinners (cooked by him as he's an ex-chef)).

I know this isn't the place for this link, but this is an exquisite book about secret gardens: Secret Gardens.

I have a thing about stones. The children and I have many rock collections, and I have a birth stone next to my writing table. My husband found it for me. It looks like a pregnant woman's body. We have also found many 'dragon eggs' (so named by my children).

Looking forward to hearing more about your garden, and the making of the stone Wheel. :):)

Georgina wrote: "I love the thought of your overgrown garden. The Wheel made from oak twigs sounds beautiful too. My husband made an osier heart with our initials entwined for us when he was courting me (it was a c..."

A courting sounds like a wondrous thing in this day and age - you and your husband sound like true kindred spirits.

And thanks for Secret Gardens - it looks just my sort of book and is going on my TBR shelf.

My daughter has a dragon's egg called Pemberton - she found it on a beach in Cornwall possibly 20 years ago and we have found stones all over the house - on windowsills, desks, mantlepieces and bookcases - some are fossils. Writing this reminds me of a poetic project called And Stones Moved Silently Across the World by Alyson Hallett. The poem is like a secret truth revealed.

As with so many things, the overgrown garden has deep discomforts. There are two sheds filled with tools and a scaffolding structure that has collapsed, leaving all the rusty tools, old paint pots and goodness knows what else in a heap on the ground. I'm trying to sort things out and dispose of most of them, but the scale of the task is daunting.

Little rituals like making the twig wheel strengthen the soul to motivate the body. :)

Yes, we are kindred spirits, both numerical 11's, I'm a Pisces, he's a Scorpio. We are both stubborn but it works well, mutual respect and attraction.

We packed our rock collections and travelled with them from the mainland to Tasmania.

We also found a rock with glacial groves, and a small fossil of a shelled creature, on the southern hill (our castle wall) of our property here.

The kids call that slope, 'Dragon Foot Hill', 'Centaur Hill' lies to the left of it. They also found a fairy glade and an arched entrance, within moments of us arriving at the property ( to look at it in terms of buying it--I took a small shovel so I could sample the earth, you have to know the earth is good.)

The old paint is not nice, we've dealt with it before (not here but in our 1800's Hotel in Braidwood. N.S.W) It's particularly horrible if it's lead-based, which I doubt is the case with what you are dealing with.

Yes, the rituals connect us again, drawing our focus, helping us on. :)

(I will look at that poem now, thanks :))

I dislike the 'k' myself. Ditto not a Crowley follower, although certain aspects of his work are interesting. Not sold on Enochian language though it is interesting too.

In my books I tend to use the 'k' in two senses:

1. To differentiate between the magic of stage magicians and spellworking/spellcraft.

2. to differentiate between those natural things and events we perceive as somehow 'magical' and again, deliberate spellworking/spellcraft or the results of it (if known of).

I'm not a 'follower' of anyone - I just love to study widely, trust in intuition and walk my own Path.

Nell wrote: "I'm not a 'follower' of anyone - I just love to study widely, trust in intuition and walk my own Path. "

Beautifully said. Sums it up for me too :)

Jaq wrote: "There are many who use the k for that reason, but I don't. Stage magic just doesn't feature in my conversations without adding the word 'stage' to differentiate."

Admittedly, stage magic comes into the picture less than #2 when the subject comes up, and now there are psychological manipulators like Derren Brown who seem more like magicians than the ones relying on elaborate props and set-ups.

This reminds me of Creative Realism: A New Method of Winning by Dr. Rolf Alexander, published in the UK as The Power of the Mind. I first came across mention of him in the book Natural Magic, in which Doreen Valiente details his powers of dispersing a specific cloud. Apparently he demonstrated this feat more than once.

Dr. Alexander and others are also mentioned Here in a blog post about cloud-busters. The whole blog is full of interesting things.

I've been flipping back and forth about magic vs magick. I've written it both ways in my own journaling, and the "k" always feels kind of forced when I use it. Being rather new to all of it, I don't know much about the background of the different spellings, though I did know it was something associated with Crowley.

I've also found ceremonial magic/k? (please correct me if I'm using the term incorrectly) to be very patriarchal as you mentioned, Jaq. I have quite a few books on it that I try to get into out of curiosity, but as of right now it feels very inaccessible. I think part of that is because it comes off to me as highly intellectual rather than spiritual. Whether it's truly that way or that's just how it hits me, can't tell you.

My own magical workings have been very small. I found recently that I do much better when I'm not so preoccupied trying to follow something perfectly and just let myself do what feels natural or spontaneous at the time, following instead a very loose outline but speaking and acting unscripted beyond that.

Gonna go back to lurking on this thread now. ;) You guys are a wealth of current information for me and I love it!

Great to have you unlurking, Avery. :) I find this group to be the most interesting one on GR. I've been very busy lately, or I'd have be contributing more, especially to the dreams and comparative religions threads.

Please don't go back to just lurking, Avery - every single post breathes life into our very special group. :)

Jaq wrote: "Formal ritual is something I consider worth learning as it forms a good basis for learning how magic works..."

Aye, like a musician learning scales etc.
A discipline is needed, especially at the start of things. The keeping of a magic/kal diary is also hugely beneficial...as is a CRITICAL reading of it.
I came across this quote recently:
“The root of all superstition is that men observe when a thing hits, but not when it misses.” Francis Bacon
I agree with the point raised above regarding the trainspotting geeky nature of some magic/k...all about the ritual...like sports stats or Star Wars quotes.

The outer workings of ceremonial magic may seem overly intellectual. But the basis it rests upon is the hermetics (as above, so below) and the Kabbalah and more specific the Tree of Life. Just start with that. The robes and pentagrams and vibrating angelic names and hebrew can come later - if at all.

I did away with that K too by the way :-p Just didn't sit right for me with Swedish as mother-tongue to purposely miss-spell words. I am struggling as it is to write them right!

Jeanette wrote: "The outer workings of ceremonial magic may seem overly intellectual. But the basis it rests upon is the hermetics (as above, so below) and the Kabbalah and more specific the Tree of Life."

Well that makes it a lot less intimidating! What would be a good book to read to get some basic information without getting caught up in things that are like "What???" You know, the equivalent of Ceremonial Magic for Dummies. ;)

There's a Kabbalah for Dummies (knew there would be):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kabbalah-For-...

Lon Milo DuQuette's The Chicken Qabalah of Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford: Dilettante's Guide to What You Do and Do Not Know to Become a Qabalist is brilliant - readable, funny and not in the least intimidating.

yeah what Nell said, and also for a broader view on ceremonial magic(k) is Low Magick: It's All in Your Head ... You Just Have No Idea How Big Your Head Is by the same author.

I like ritual magick, but some of my most powerful spells were done without ritual. By ritual I don't mean Qabala - I've studied and practiced that in the past (along with a dozen other things) and gave it up - not my tradition, not meant for me. What I've settled down to isn't Wicca, either. It blends Witchcraft of several sorts with Norse shamanism.

Results are important, of course, or you wouldn't have bothered in the first place, right? But they aren't always what you expect or ask for. Sometimes they are dramatically unexpected, especially with a Trickster patron like mine. Other times nothing has happened - a spell did not work. I always take that as it was prevented from happening either by outside intervention (perhaps for my own good) or it fizzled because I didn't do it properly due to mistake or ignorance. Even after practicing 20 years, there is so much I don't know. When something doesn't work, I investigate the possible reasons and ask for guidance. Sometimes I figure out why, and that's when I learn something about technique.

Jeanette wrote: "yeah what Nell said, and also for a broader view on ceremonial magic(k) is Low Magick: It's All in Your Head ... You Just Have No Idea How Big Your Head Is by the same author."

I haven't read that one but I reckon anything by Lon Milo Duquette would be pretty damned good. :)

Thanks, Jeanette. Added that one too.

Ruby, your patron is Loki?

Jaq, thanks, have your book on my TBR too.

:) Gina.

The witch's Tarot books one and two for information on Kabbalal is great.

Can someone please tell me about the significance of numbers in magic? For example about numbers eight and four, as far as I know they are known as the numbers of fate?

Hi Disha, I haven't studied numbers, except in relation to the tarot and very slightly the Qabalah/Kabbalah, where numerology is used to show the interconnectedness of all things. I think the significance of numbers probably depends on the practice/system or tradition you're studying and/or using, but I could well be wrong so I'll say no more :).

Hello Nell, thank you for answering. That is really nice of you :) I do believe that numbers have a special significance in our lives, I will try finding out more about this. Thank you so much for taking out the time to answer me :)

I follow numerology, Disha, but as I said before, I'm not really into ritual. But my thoughts on the relevance of the number four and eight:

The elements: Earth, Air, Water, Fire.
The points: North, South, East, West.
The eight stations of the year: Summer Solstice, Lughnasa, Autumn Equinox, Samhain, Winter Solstice, Imbolic, Spring Equinox, Beltane.

Some interesting (or not?) links:
http://www.angelfire.com/freak/bensbo...
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/a...
http://fraterbarrabbas.blogspot.com.a....
htmhttp://fullmoon-magick.150m.com/tools...
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/numbers.asp
http://www.whats-your-sign.com/spirit...
http://www.esotericarchives.com/agrip...

:) Gina

I suspect Jeanette, Ruby, Jaq or Old-Barbarossa, will be able to help you further with this. :)

There is also the magykal 8th colour in Saint Terry's system...

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "There is also the magykal 8th colour in Saint Terry's system..."
Thank you so much! I had no clue about this :)

Jaq wrote: "Disha wrote: "Can someone please tell me about the significance of numbers in magic? For example about numbers eight and four, as far as I know they are known as the numbers of fate?"

As nell says..."
Thank you so much, you talked about directions which is very interesting as my birth number is eight and ny name does mean all the four directions!

Georgina wrote: "I suspect Jeanette, Ruby, Jaq or Old-Barbarossa, will be able to help you further with this. :)"
Thanks Gina, I will ask them :)

Georgina wrote: "I follow numerology, Disha, but as I said before, I'm not really into ritual. But my thoughts on the relevance of the number four and eight:

The elements: Earth, Air, Water, Fire.
The points: Nor..."
Thank you so much for the links Gina, I am going to peruse them by length, how kind of you to search and send me all those links. Thank you so very much!

Disha wrote: "Old-Barbarossa wrote: "There is also the magykal 8th colour in Saint Terry's system..."
Thank you so much! I had no clue about this :)"

My tongue is popping from my cheek...
Just messing...Terry Pratchett and his Discworld tales. There are words of wisdom there though...Granny Weatherwax is a sage.

The number means whatever you want. If you invest in one system then it may mean something different to another.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Disha wrote: "Old-Barbarossa wrote: "There is also the magykal 8th colour in Saint Terry's system..."
Thank you so much! I had no clue about this :)"

My tongue is popping from my cheek...
Just mes..."Hmm....that is so true! Numbers might mean one thing in one system and something else entirely in another. Thank you for pointing that out.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Disha wrote: "Old-Barbarossa wrote: "There is also the magykal 8th colour in Saint Terry's system..."
Thank you so much! I had no clue about this :)"

My tongue is popping from my cheek...
Just mes..."

I thought you were talking about Terry Pratchett! And yes, I agree, Granny is a sage, and Pratchett is a wise man with a great deal of knowledge.

Disha wrote: "Georgina wrote: "I follow numerology, Disha, but as I said before, I'm not really into ritual. But my thoughts on the relevance of the number four and eight:

The elements: Earth, Air, Water, Fire...."

Very happy to do so, Disha.:) The one on numbers in Hinduism looks interesting too. I'm a numerological 11, but interestingly enough I was born on the 3rd of the 3rd at 3pm, so perhaps I'm the Devil's (Horned One's) half sister. :D