Outlander Series discussion

I know we all have STRONG feelings about Laoghaire but I was wondering something... I just finished rereading Echo and was contemplating Jamie's rather tender memories of he and Laoghaire's days. I wonder if they had to take the blood vow during their wedding ceremony. If it is tradition, there is no reason why it would not be included but DG doesn't mention it. What do you think? Could he have made that vow to Laoghaire when it obviously was so true for Claire?

I don't think they made the blood vow. Laoghaire knew deep down that she would never be able to replace Claire in Jamie's heart. And Jamie was just going through the motions and trying to move on with his life. At first I was ticked that Jamie went to Laoghaire in Echo and blew up with jealousy over her new marriage. I didnt understand why Jamie would care so much, especially after having Claire back in his life. But, after re-reading their discussion in Echo I felt a little better about the confrontation between the two. Even though Jamie couldn't give Loaghaire the love she wanted, he wanted her unconditional love in return. I guess he took for granted that Loaghaire would pine after him the rest of her life. I can't stand her but I'm glad she moved on and I'm glad she and Jamie finally got some closure.

I just started Voyager but since this is about Laoghaire and Jamie. Does Jamie ever find out that she was the one who tried to have Claire killed?

Yuuuuuuuup.

keep reading Shay... Just wait ;)

I am reading. Reading is taking too long, I have so many unanswered questions. LOL I am 108 pages into Voyager and loving it.

Shay wrote: "I am reading. Reading is taking too long, I have so many unanswered questions. LOL I am 108 pages into Voyager and loving it."

Is this your first time reading Voyager? I read them all last year for the first time, and have stopped at ABOSAA... starting Echo soon. Voyager is one of my favs!

Yes it is. I have heard of this series before but just got a Nook last month and lucky me I got Outlander for FREE. So I was able to finally read this series. I really didn't know much about it except the time travel aspect and I love time travel books. Now I am hooked. And I have been dying to find out Laoghaire's reaction to Jamie saving Claire and Jamie reaction to Loaghaire trying to have Claire killed.

Shay wrote: "Yes it is. I have heard of this series before but just got a Nook last month and lucky me I got Outlander for FREE. So I was able to finally read this series. I really didn't know much about it exc..."

It's been a while since I finished reading all the books. I just started the audio version of Outlander and am loving it.

Correct me if I am wrong ladies, but I do not remember much text dedicated to Jamie finding out Loaghaire was the one who sent Clarie to the witch execution. Also, I do not think he finds out for a while.

Elizabeth wrote: "Shay wrote: "Yes it is. I have heard of this series before but just got a Nook last month and lucky me I got Outlander for FREE. So I was able to finally read this series. I really didn't know much..."

SPOILER









Elizabeth, this is in TFC page 1292, mass-market paperback. It is the chapter when Jamie finally received a letter from his sister Jenny (she stopped writing after Young Ian was "lost" to the Indians) and in which she tells him that she found out about Laoghaire having a sexual relationship. She did not mention a name, though, and Jamie's reaction is jealousy. In the later confrontation with Claire she mentions that Laoghaire has tried to have her killed, but is rather surprised that Jamie has not known so far.

Yes it is awhile before he finds out and not that eventful. I have to say I never understood why she didn't tell him right after it happened.

Hi friends, just join this group and so happy to be here. I'm on . I love VOYAGER!

I don't know about the later books, but as of Fiery, I don't think Jamie knows about Laoghaire. It was Brianna blasted and uncovered her motive at Lallybroch in front of everyone. In your face Laoghaire. Sorry, I can't stand her. She could have made it with Jamie. Even without his heart&soul in the marriage, she had his body, his service and his honor. It was her turning her back on him that made him walked. It would made it harder for him to walk away if he had stayed and have a child with her. Thank goodness because then, there would be 3 broken hearts & souls.

Welcome!!

Thanks and thanks for the suggestion of this group. I love it. I can't get enough and joining this group discussion is just what I needed!

Sarah wrote: "Yes it is awhile before he finds out and not that eventful. I have to say I never understood why she didn't tell him right after it happened."

I'm with you on this. I never understood why Claire didn't just bust her out. If someone tried to kill me and then I found out that my husband ended up marrying her, that would be the next thing I say after "Oh HELL no!"

taita wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Yes it is awhile before he finds out and not that eventful. I have to say I never understood why she didn't tell him right after it happened."

I'm with you on this. I never unders..."

Same here. I am done with Voyager now and there are two times that would have been perfect for Claire to let Jamie know what that liitle evil bitch did. When they were fighting about her and then when they were talking to Geilis.

I LOVE Voyager, it's my favorite...so far.

Well I've read all the books and my favorites are The Outlander and The Voyager. The later books aren't so focused on them. There is a lot about other characters, which is good, but Claire and Jamie are my favorites.And reading Dragonfly in Amber was a rather traumatic experience for me. I cried. A lot. And thought Jamie was dead for a while. And they missed twenty years they could've spent together. As I said, traumatic.

Seriously, Jamie has absolutely no business feeling all all jealousy toward Laoghaire's news of marriage in TFC. I'm glad Claire finally rat out Laoghaire's evil intention. Evil and vile, that female!

Mimi wrote: "Well I've read all the books and my favorites are The Outlander and The Voyager. The later books aren't so focused on them. There is a lot about other characters, which is good, but Claire and Jami..."

I mourn those 20 years they missed!

I second that Taita...

Crazy I don't think Jamie was jealous. I think it was a blow to his manhood.

Sue, I totally agree. Hurt his male pride.

taita wrote: "Mimi wrote: "Well I've read all the books and my favorites are The Outlander and The Voyager. The later books aren't so focused on them. There is a lot about other characters, which is good, but Cl..."

I am with you Taita I think that is what made DIA so hard to read.

Ok, all this talk of Laoghaire and Jamie is all fine and dandy, but what about Frank and Claire. Was I the only one bugged by that? Oh, and that time when Claire mentions that sometimes she wakes up with Jamie and wishes she was still with Frank! WTF, that annoyed me. A lot. Well, a lot abut Frank, in general, annoyed me.

Mimi I don't ever remember her waking with Jamie and wishing it was Frank. I think she had some guilt now and then.

One thing that bugged me a little bit was why Claire always wore Jamie's ring on her right hand and Jamie never questioned it. The first time she was with Jamie
and she made the decision not to leave him. Should she not have put Jamie's ring on the left hand? And then after Frank's death and she goes back to Jamie, again, there Frank's ring is still on her left hand.

Mimi wrote: "Ok, all this talk of Laoghaire and Jamie is all fine and dandy, but what about Frank and Claire. Was I the only one bugged by that? Oh, and that time when Claire mentions that sometimes she wakes u..."

I think she felt it made her feel who she really was. Does that make any sense???

She chose Jamie, she stayed with him, then went back to him as soon as she found out he was still alive. I think keeping the ring on the finger Frank put it on was the one way she tried to balance the scales.

Isn't the hand that one wears a wedding ring on dependent on culture also? Maybe it wasn't so set in stone in the 18th century Scotland to wear your wedding ring on the ring finger of your left hand...???

Mimi and Dani, I see your points but for some reason, I felt sorry instead of upset when it comes to C&F. Maybe bc deep down Claire only has Jamie in her heart, mind and soul AND sadly, it showed. She can't even pretend she was content with her situation knowing she couldn't return to Jamie and that he's dead. I think if she could, Frank wouldn't be drawn to other women. Can you imagine what life was like for Frank? living with such defeat? Jamie left when he felt defeated with Laoghaire. True, C&F had sex, occationally, but it was more like getting over the urges. So that's my take on C&F, deep down, ONLY Jamie mattered!!!!

In the same line of defense, bc ONLY Claire mattered, Jamie shouldn't give a sh*t what Laoghaire went about her life. Manhood in question or not!

Do I make sense? I have lots of room for forgiveness when it comes to Jamie bc ...it's Jamie. But there is just no excuse for him to even thought about Laoghaire in bed with another guy, and be crushed via manhood, ego, jealousy, etc. OR maybe it's just Laoghaire that gets under my skin like a cancer.

I can see what you are trying to say, but you are forgetting that Claire gave a sh*t when Frank had affairs. She hated it. It drove her crazy. It was a blow to her own pride. These are human emotions when you've been connected to someone. I wonder about my ex's wives and what they saw in them over me. It doesn't mean I want them or that I love my own husband less.

Not to mention that Frank still haunts her now, I'd say that is equal to what moments Jamie had with his insecurities over Laogaire moving on happily with someone else.

I think that most people have a hard time with this because it's Laoghaire. I think if Jamie had met and married some random woman, and this had played out the exact same way (him upset because she didn't find pleasure with him, but did with someone else) people wouldn't be so angry at him.

We fans love to hate Laoghaire. I actually don't hate her. I think she's had a hard life, and what she did to Clare was disgusting but she's paid for it. She was abused and beaten, she was used and left on her own. That's some pretty good comeuppance.

Yes Claire was hurt knowing Frank was with someone else. It's embarrassing facing his friends and hosting parties as if you're blind and stupid. Bc she's the one who wanted the divorce, I don't think the pride was as brused as Jamie's and Frank's. I think Frank haunted her out of guilt more than affection, though she did loved Frank, hence still wore his ring bc he'll always be part of her.

The thing with Laoghaire, she could have had it all. If only she'd given him enough time to heal. Coming back to Lallybroch, broken physically and emotionally, it seemed everyone had moved on. The only thing that he was able to connect was Laoghaire. Yet after the marriage, felt needed & useful with a sense of grounding himself, he couldn't figure out Laoghaire. Jamie tried to be a good husband in term of supporting, servicing, he would and did give her his body...but not his mind and soul. But I think from what I gathered of Jamie, he would do his best living up to his responsibility. Can you imagine how things would be if Laoghaire had forgave & loved him? Took him in, injured, crushed, heartbroken and all, and helped him heal and gave him a family of his own?

She really could have had it all if she didn't have all that hatred in her. If she had really loved Jamie, she would have him and Claire would have walked away. And that's what bugged me the most. She went as far as framing Claire to be burned, had 2 marriages, been abused, abdoned with 2 daughters, to finally have Jamie back in her arms again and yet she's jealous of Claire's ghost.

I think it was because no matter how much he tried to give her everything, he couldn't. She said that she could always feel Claire there between them. Jamie couldn't truly give her everything because he had already given that to Claire.

As far as Claire and Frank, I agree that part of it was that. But part of it was just that he was with someone else when their own marriage was shambles.

Either way though, jealousy is a fickle thing and it's not something we can control. I just feel like both of their feelings were normal human reactions. I don't think that Jamie wanted to feel that way when he heard about Laoghaire. I am willing to bet that he hated how it made him feel. And it wasn't Jealousy because he wanted her, it was jealousy that he didn't feel like he had been man enough for her. He told Claire that he tried over and over to make their bedroom situation better, and that she'd cry and scream. Treat him like a monster. It did something to him inside. Then he hears about this other man that she seems to have moved on with in a healthy way... I guess I just believe feeling bad and confused is uncontrolable.

Our psyche takes over and causes reactions that we may despise.

Amen!

Hey there...I'm a newbie to the group.
I wanted to add another way to look at Jamie and Laoghaire. I am a competitive person. I grew up playing sports and played basketball in college. It wasn't until I got out of college and stopped playing sports that I even realized that NOT EVERYONE is competitve. JAMIE is definitely competitive. So, when he hears about L. with her new beau I think his emotions are coming from his competitive nature. He was being a sore loser (and that's okay, it happens to all of us). When you are competitve you want to win at everything...even when you don't care about the game...even if it's Candyland :)Jamie had lost/failed Laoghaire.

ALSO, regarding Frank. I could be wrong, but I do believe his affair(s) were implied but never confirmed. I don't think we can assume he cheated on Claire. In fact, I would LOVE to know more about what Frank new and what he was up to for those 20 years. I think he new ALOT. He taught/trained Bree in many things to prepare her for the 18th century and he wanted to take Bree away...I believe to keep her from going back in time. Do you have proof he cheated? I can't remember...

She never out and out busted him for it, no. But she said that it was obvious. He would come home with a woman's lipstick on his collar or reeking of her perfume. She said it was awkward at gatherings because she would hear whispers. And when they would fight about it, he didn't deny it.

Don't get me wrong... I like Frank. He took her back, he raised Bree, he gave them his life. Frank was a 'man of worth' (Don't mind my BDB reference, lol). If he wanted to have sex with a woman who wasn't living with daydreams of another man, well who wouldn't. It wasn't Franks fault that Claire went back in time and found Jamie, he just made the best life he could out of it. He could have left her on her own, but he didn't. He was a good man.

I also agree that he knew more. I think he went looking after the years with Claire and he did find stuff. He was a historian, it wouldn't be hard for him to find out everything Claire did, if not more.

There were varies mentioned Frank was with his ladies. Especially when he decided to leave with Bree b4 he died. Claire had mentioned something about the latest GF demanding he make the move, right? Again, I don't hate Frank either. I feel so bad for him, loving and caring for Claire and Bree. He could have lived with the situation if Claire wasn't so apparent with her love for Jamie. Yes, Frank knew a lot more than he had lead on, that's why he had Jamie's tombstone erected so that Claire questioned and researched Jamie again.

It does Sue, I just wondered about it. And Jamie was good to never mention the rings..I guess he understood.

Sue wrote: "I think she felt it made her feel who she really was. Does that make any sense???"

Perhaps..

Wendy F . I think keeping the ring on the finger Frank put it on was the one way she tried to balance..."

Oh, I think it wounded Jamie's pride that Laoghaire moved on. I don't think he truly wanted her, but I think he wanted to think she would just pine away for him while had his life. I think that would go under the description of "man thang" :-)

Crazy4more wrote:In the same line of defense, bc ONLY Claire mattered, Jamie shouldn't give a sh*t what Laoghaire went about her life. Manhood in question or not! ...."

Leah wrote: "Hey there...I'm a newbie to the group.
"

Welcome Leah!

I had to read the passage about Jamie freaking out upon hearing the news of Laoghaire (Leghair) several times because of my initial outrage at his reaction. Why should he care who Laoghaire ended up with?

Once I calmed down, it seemed like it wasn't that Jamie was jealous. He seemed more baffled and frustrated that he couldn't find a way to make her happy or at least satisfied. I don't just mean in the bedroom. But in all ways.

Jamie is such a gentlemen, especially toward women. I think he was frustrated during his time with Laoghaire. She knew he pined for another woman and she didn't help try and make their situation better. Both of them suffered to the point Jamie left so they wouldn't destroy each other.

Luckily Claire seemed to understand Jamie's reaction because in many ways, she was like Laoghaire while living with Frank. Frank could not make her forget her love for Jamie. Claire didn't really try to put Jamie in the past. It was a frustrating existence for both Frank and Claire.

Frank definitely cheated. There are many references to his having affairs during their marriage. Claire looked the other way, so to speak, because she knew she couldn't be the wife Frank wanted and couldn't let go of her love and devotion to Jamie.

Vicious cycle for Jamie/Laoghaire - Claire/Frank

If you remember when Frank and Claire were on thier 2nd honeymoon. Frank told Claire if she ever had been with someone else while they were apart during the war it was OK. To which Clair felt insulted that he would even suggest such a thing. It made me wonder if Frank had already been unfaithful even before the 2nd honeymoon. As for the ring. I always wondered why Claire didn't give her ring from Frank to Bre.

Ok I find that Laoghaiere and Jamie bother me less than Frank and Claire for a few reasons.
Claire loved Frank before Jamie, during Jamie and after Jamie. Not in the same way as Jamie and after Culloden in a broken way, but she still loved him. Jamie tried to love Laoghaire but he didnt love her, nor any other woman in a romantic way, so I kind of feel that its emotional affair, which isnt logical, but there it is.
Frank was a big part of Claire and her life. They were in fact together longer than J and C. He was with her during her pregnancy, raising Bree together, seeing her first steps, first school days, 1st boyfriend. Even though he has 2 kids Jamie didnt have the opportunity to raise and be a father to them when they were young. So its also Frank and Bree that bother me a little.

Leah wrote: "Hey there...I'm a newbie to the group.
I wanted to add another way to look at Jamie and Laoghaire. I am a competitive person. I grew up playing sports and played basketball in college. It wasn't u..."
Its confirmed. His women sometimes called Claire to tell her to let Frank go.

Hello! I am a newbie also. In the beginning I was also disturbed about Jamie's reaction to finding out Laoghire was sleeping with another man and he wanted to know who it was. Why should he care?! But then I understood that it was not because he loved or cared for Laoghire but I guess it was his ego that suffered as a man. And I was glad that Claire understood that, considering she went thru same with with Frank because even though she didn't love Frank anymore as she loved Jamie I think it was her ego that suffered as well. Not so much jealousy. I never liked Laoghire for what she did to Claire and how she treated Bree. It's like Mac told Claire once "Jamie needs a real woman not a child. And Laoghire will still be a child when she is 50." I see what he meant. Laoghire should've atleast listened to Jamie when he apologized and tried to forgive him. But no she just acted like a crazy woman and starts hitting him...What's up with that? And I was also happy that Claire finally told Jamie that Laoghire tried to have her killed. As for Frank, I didn't like that he tried to take Bree away from Claire the night he died. I liked him more in the beginning before she met Jamie,then I tolerated him even though at same time I felt sorry for him because it was not his fault she fell in love with Jamie. Anyway I can't wait for book 8 to come out...

I think that at times our egos get the best of us. We have no reason to be jealous, but it still creeps up on us. And it can't be explained. It's human nature.

Wendy F wrote: "She never out and out busted him for it, no. But she said that it was obvious. He would come home with a woman's lipstick on his collar or reeking of her perfume. She said it was awkward at gath..."
Wendy I could not agree with you more. My sentiments exactly regarding Frank and his infidelities to Claire. It was obvious he was having affairs with different women. 1st because when Claire confronted him with it the night he died that he was leaving her for another woman and taking Bree with him she told him she knew of his affairs and counted maybe 12 or so and he didn't deny it, just acted shocked that she knew all along. Even Bree said she found something in his pocket coat oneday,a note from a woman or something. 2nd the numerous women who went to Claire to ask that she leave her husband in which she replied that he would have to leave if he wanted to, he just had to ask. and 3rd in that letter Roger read to Jamie where Frank told the Rev Wakefield that he Hurt Claire and was not going to go into detail about what he did. What more clues or hints can you get? He was just really good at hiding it or being descreet about it. etc. And was never caught at cheating on her.

My first thought was Jamie jealous of Laoghaire's love interest... but Jamie's ego/pride/manhood was bruised, still, I was taken aback reading it.

I'm moving on to ABOSAA. Can't wait.

In addition to Jamie feeling taken aback(bruised ego) by Laoghaire's new love interest, I think he also felt angry that she's fooling around without being married so he is still on the hook to pay her alimony. Every year Jamie and Claire scramble and sacrifice to get enough money together to pay Laoghaire. As a result, Jamie has had to sell jewels that are tickets for possible time travel for Bree's family and perhaps even Claire eventually and I think that fuels his anger toward Laoghaire.