Jane Austen discussion

(Chapters 19-22 in my edition)
Cpt. W travels to Bath and encounters Anne (and William Elliot) in a store. The concert! Anne continues to visit Mrs. Smith and learns more about William Elliot and his past, the opinions he has expressed about the Elliot family and his current plans regarding the family. The Musgroves arrive in Bath. William Elliot is spotted on the street talking to Mrs. Clay. Sir Walter invites all of the Musgroves and Cpt. W to their party.

Discuss!

Ok I'll start. I love the scene of Anne and Wentworth’s meeting during the rain. It’s very tense and the fact they are both embarrassed gives us the hint of their newly recognized feelings are out in the open.

I feel if they had more time together they might or at least Wentworth will take the first step to express his feelings and affections to Anne. It you notice it carefully it is he who is more embarrassed there than Anne (she too realizes he embarrassed) It could’ve been a great romantic moment for them only if Mr. Elliot would’ve stayed out of the way, who from this point onwards I find very irritating. If Elliot was out of the picture, this could’ve been a great opportunity because now Captain Wentworth is now free of all attachments, and has had seen Anne’s real spirit and both he and Anne are at the same place at the same time. But they are both confused by the appearance of this third party/Mr. Elliot.

By the way has anyone else noticed a similarity of this meeting during the rain to ‘Little Women’s scene in the chapter “Under the Umbrella” between Jo and Professor Bhaer? The rain, offering of umbrella, the awkwardnesss in both parties because of their hidden feelings… luckily for Jo and Professor there was no Elliot!

I hadn't noticed the similarity, but I do see it now! Isn't it funny that often embarassment is a side issue of romantic love? Even when you're pretty sure that the other party is in love, too, there's an awkwardness that's just ... there! until the love has been openly established.
And, as for Mr. Elliot and his obtrusiveness -- it's probably a good thing for his physical well-being that Anne isn't the type to give him a shove under the nearest carriage.

Amalie wrote: "Ok I'll start. I love the scene of Anne and Wentworth’s meeting during the rain. It’s very tense and the fact they are both embarrassed gives us the hint of their newly recognized feelings are out ..."

That is a nice similarity, Amalie! I love Little Women. :)

I do love that Anne is more comfortable than Wentworth in that moment. She caught a glimpse of him outside beforehand, so she had a second to be prepared. But she picks up on his embarrassment and hopes she's right about the cause. (And she IS!! :D)

One other thing about that scene--this is when I dislike Elizabeth the most. She seems determined to make her sister walk in the rain and not let her in the Dalrymple's carriage. Rhymes with witch!

Oh, I think Elizabeth, for all of her self-love and self-esteem, knew that Anne could very well become a rival to her. She wasn't about to take a chance on Anne becoming more liked or more important than herself, especially in the Dalrymple's estimation. Elizabeth is a good example of how chickens behave when they're cooped up; the eternal "pecking order" syndrome.

Rachel wrote: "Amalie wrote: "Ok I'll start. I love the scene of Anne and Wentworth’s meeting during the rain. It’s very tense and the fact they are both embarrassed gives us the hint of their newly recognized fe..."

Yes it does! That whole thing with the carriage is just Elizabeth exercising her "superiority" to Anne yet again. Elizabeth has to better than Anne and have her toady (Mrs. Clay) trailing behind to emphasize it. Almost as yucky as the slimy Mr. E.

You are absolutely right Rachel. Elizabeth's behaviour towards Anne is unpardonable almost all the time. I often wonder when I read the book whether Elizabeth Elliot is happy at all with anything she has. To me she is one of the most wretched and miserable characters in Austen's novels second to Mrs Norris may be. Her rudeness towards her sisters might be resulting from this because they have a chance to be happy.

Karlyne wrote: "...Elizabeth is a good example of how chickens behave when they're cooped up; the eternal "pecking order" syndrome"

Ha-ha very funny Karlyne. I think you just discovered a new mental disorder. Yep that's Elizabeth.

Yep--Elizabeth takes snobbishness to the level of a mental disorder!!

We could call it EEAD (Elizabeth Elliot Attitude Disorder).

I just went through Chapter 20 and there are few things I want to add.

First of all, Captain Wentworth's thought on Benwick’s love for Louisa, I feel , more than giving his thoughts of Benwick, is a self revelation to Anne to let her know that he never stopped loving her nor he ever could. The way he add adjectives (yes, I know famous in Austen’s) to describe Benwick’s agony can be his personal agony. “with a heart pierced, wounded, almost broken!” And the way he ends it “He ought not; he does not” – “he ought not” he may be referring to Benwick and “he does not” is what he feels.

Secondly, didn’t Sir Walter just admit here that Wentworth is “a very well-looking man” although on the next line he passes an offensive remark? I hadn’t noticed it before. And, so Irishmen are more handsome than Englishman?

And yes, more of EEAD!!!

Amalie, nice examination there. That also got me thinking about the Elliots. In these later stages of the story, I think it makes sense to conclude that the Elliots are not headed for redemption or any opening of their closed views. Anne makes us know this too -- her family when in Bath has no interest in the operas, the literary societies, the plays or any of the things that might edify their minds and souls. They attend the musical performance to get tighter with the Dalrymples and wear their pretty clothes. Of the whole group Anne, she is the only one who seems to have any knowledge of what the performance is about.

I don't know if Walter meant the Irish are more good looking, but he was "typing" Wentworth surely, something he was an expert at due to his snobbery.

Isabella's brother in Northanger Abbey, Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility, Mr. Elton in Emma (and to a lesser extent, Frank Churchill, too), and then there's Lady Susan, in a class all by herself!

Karlyne wrote: "We could call it EEAD (Elizabeth Elliot Attitude Disorder)."

HAHA! That works! XD

Katie wrote: "Amalie: "It could’ve been a great romantic moment for them only if Mr. Elliot would’ve stayed out of the way, who from this point onwards I find very irritating."

So true! And isn't that always ..."

Yes, you're right, Katie. All these male characters do serve as stumbling blocks for the real couple to overcome, and I think Austen is genius in the way she changes up the degree to which each of them is a roadblock to the romance. Willoughby and Henry Crawford are pretty significant ones, but Mr. Elliot here...not so much. Anne never truly considers marrying him and she never wavers in her feelings for Wentworth.

And she always distrusts Mr. Elliot, right from the start. Anne was a very discerning woman.

Karlyne wrote: "Isabella's brother in Northanger Abbey, Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility, Mr. Elton in Emma (and to a lesser extent, Frank Churchill, too), and then there's Lady Susan, in a class all by herself!"

Has anyone of you imagined to what extend does Frank Churchill stand out as 'an outwardly gentleman and inwardly villainous'? To me, I always find it difficult to to tell that he is wholly bad or bad at all. He seems more like a character stands in a middle ground.

I think Frank Churchill is more weak-charactered than actually villainous. He's just pleasure loving and heedless. He certainly is able to cause his share of woe and regrets, but he does it without thought or real intent to injure. A "nice" man, but not necessarily a good man!

Karlyne wrote: "I think Frank Churchill is more weak-charactered than actually villainous. He's just pleasure loving and heedless. He certainly is able to cause his share of woe and regrets, but he does it witho..."

I agree. He likes to get along with everyone and he also likes things to go his way. He is a pleaser when it benefits him also.

Funny how all Austen's cads have that charming quality. They are all so good at pleasing the people they want to until their real characters become known. Mr. Elliot is certainly an example of that.

Rachel wrote: "Funny how all Austen's cads have that charming quality. They are all so good at pleasing the people they want to until their real characters become known. Mr. Elliot is certainly an example of that."

I know, I've always wonder about that did she do it because we are suppose to be suspicious of those type of people, or because she thought of theme that way or from a personal expirience?

I think it’s because Austen used to make fun of novelistic cliché of her time, and though her novels are romantic she is no way in what so ever a sentimental novelist so good guys can be - not so handsome (Colonel Brandon) and bad guys can be extremely handsome (John Willoughby).

So as Rachel has pointed out, we meet a group of charming cads.

And Austen's books are so true to life; don't we all have at least one cad in our lives? The lucky ones are those who just brushed up against them and didn't make the mistake of letting them permanently into their lives. Or, maybe they aren't "lucky" but are, instead, rather perceptive -- just like Jane and her heroines, especially Anne.

yes.

Amen to that.