Reading the Chunksters discussion

Congrats Stand readers, we are now at 54%.

This part focusses mainly on Larry and Nadine.
We learn a bit more about her background, or lack off in this case. She's as unrooted (if that's a word? :) ) as the dark man himself, and I wonder what will happen if she hangs onto her virginity and gives herself to him. There probably will be a child, in which way will it play a role in this novel? Since Frannie's baby seems to be important as well. Maybe Mother Abigail is right, and the initial survivors won't be around when it's time for the stand off.. (I kinda find this fun to do, trying to give my opinion as if I've never read it, just going on what I read, instead of what I know.. getting quite good at that! lol)

Larry is being made into a leader, someone others follow and I wonder where that change came. He seems more grown up, but emotionally still a mess though. He wants Nadine, he can't have her, so he settles for Lucy. No offense towards Larry, but I do think Lucy deserves better than that.

And Larry's opinion of Harold was a bit off center, but wonderfully done by King though. To have someone portrayed as being galant, an everyday hero (which indeed suits Stu better). With almost every other major character thinking of him as being untrustworthy, which he actually is, going on his thoughts, and then you have Larry praising him into the heavens.
I'm curious to see how Larry will find the truth and if he will see it for what it is.

Now that I am caught up, I am really flying through the chapters and I am loving it! I will wait until more people post because I am thinking that I may be jumping ahead and I don't want to give anything away. I will say that I am enjoying the novel a lot more now that we are focusing on the survivors and where the storyline is going. Loving it! Great choice! And Harold... I am curious to see what becomes of that young skywalker...

Good reference Trisha.. will Harold be an Anakin or a Luke? :)

The dark side does have cookies!

I was definitely surprised by who Nadine is supposed to sleep with. A nice touch by King and I'm kind of bummed I didn't expect it. However, I completely forgot who Lucy was, which was kind of frustrating because that rarely happens.

Harold is a great character, I love the star wars reference :D

@ Teal: I forgot who Lucy was too! I guess she wasn't drawn that well when we met her before... (did we meet her before?)

My thoughts:

- Larry really just can't keep it in his pants, can he? In love with Nadine, but sleeping with Lucy. All I can do is shake my head....

- I'm finding it really kind of weird that this is such an American-centric story. Clearly, with the break down of technology, we're not going to be seeing a bunch of Europeans, Asians, and Africans flying over to the United States to see what's up. But neither the United States/Canada border nor the United States/Mexico border are physical borders - heck, getting into the Rockies was probably a lot harder than crossing from Mexico into New Mexico or Texas. So why is this such a U.S. citizen centric tale?

- I find it amusing that all the techies are on Flagg's side. Part of me wonders if this isn't novelist King's way of poking fun at the way engineers and various other techies have a "smarter than thou" attitude.

- I really like Ralph. I sort of wish we'd gotten to know him earlier.

- Nadine is WAAAYYY creepier than I was expecting. I actually also didn't expect the man she was waiting for to be Flagg. It's funny, because she didn't seem like a "bad sort"--we don't know that she's done anything like Trashcan Man or Lloyd has. So I wonder if she's going to fight against her predetermined fate, and choose to give her virginity to someone else.

- I also think that conversation would be great. "If I sleep with you, it'll help save the world. Larry, you are, in fact, God's gift to women."

- I actually still feel kind of bad for Harold. He's clearly a monster, but he seems the kind of monster that was made, not born--his parents preferred his sister, he's kind of off-putting so he's been ostracized. That last section seemed to confirm that there was a point, after reading Fran's diary, where he reached a fork in the road, and could easily have chosen the good path, but chose the dark one instead. Sad.

- Larry's mental image of Harold was a hoot. But I guess that reinforces why I feel bad for Harold--he clearly had some good ideas, and no one recognized him. After a lifetime of that, who wouldn't become bitter?

I definitely disagree about Larry! He isn't so bad at all...he has grown up alot! Who wouldn't be confused with all that has gone on? He knows that he will never be w/ Nadine and does have feelings for Lucy? So why can't he be w/ her? She has feelings for him and clearly admits that in the beginning she was w/ him for comfort and companionship as well. Why is that ok, but it's not w/ him?

I wasn't implying that Larry was "bad" (and I didn't really say anything about Lucy at all). I was merely pointing out that, even with some growth, he's still something of a "Ladies' Man" (to use an antiquated term). But the same can be said about many leaders over the years, including an American president or two (or 15, LOL).

Personally, I don't really like the character very much (though I do like how his relationship with Joe/Leo is developing and affecting him), but I don't hate him. I just don't find him as compelling as King seems to think he is.

Well, to each their own. I do like his character. He is great w/ Joe/Leo and his relationship w/ him, I think, has really helped him mature. I don't see him being a "ladies man", but once again that is my opinion. I see him as an average person w/a lot of growing up to do thrown into a position where someone had to step up to the plate....and I think he surprised even himself when he did.

I'm sure everyone has their favorite characters and least favorite characters. He just happens to be one of my faves.

Loretta, I hope I'm not coming off too defensive. After reading this book so many times and it being one of my favorites.....alot of the characters seem like old friends. If I get carried away, I'm sorry. :)

Oh Kathy, that's fine. There are certain books that I'm absolutely rabid in my endorsement of, so I can understand the emotional attachment.

I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't actually criticizing Larry, really. It's more like when you have a friend, and s/he has one characteristic that you find annoying or a bit ridiculous, and you just have to laugh and shake your head and say, "Oh, Larry!" Really, I just find his penchant for the ladies a tad amusing, and was looking at the whole thing with my usual derisive humor, which is probably why it sounded harsh. :)

Lorretta,
I tend to agree with you in regards to Larry. I hated him so much in the beginning that i'm having a hard time accepting that he's not some self absorbed ladies man. And now that king has described him with awesome abs and long hair ...well doesn't really help me like him.

Kathy, I think your view is the one that I'll have by the end of the book. He's a lovable character if you disregard his prior behavior (although the change is what makes his later character so lovable).

Is anyone bothered by this?

I hate the role of women in this story! At least right now. I know Frannie talks about how they must resort back to a more old fashion way of gender roles, but it seemed like every recent chapter had a woman in the kitchen. And everyone seems content with it. Frannie's role on the board seems almost cursory and she's all hormonal so she has faded from being a strong sensible woman to completely dependent. Lucy is also depicted this way, especially in regards to Larry and Nadine (I still like Nadine. She delves from the norm...even if that means being evil)I hated how Lucy just walked into the house.

I started thinking that this was because it was originally supposed to take place in the 70s but it seems like King completely disregards the women's movement as something of a joke.

(I rarely get bothered by things like this, and am a bit surprised that it has bothered me enough to comment on it but the complete acceptance of traditional roles by characters like Frannie bugged me to no end.)

@ Teal: That has really been bothering me as well. I tend to read a fair amount of post-apocalyptic fiction and watch movies and TV shows that explore that idea as well, and this is one of the rare ones where the world has reverted to traditional gender roles.

For example, in The Walking Dead Vol. 1: Days Gone Bye, "our" group of survivor's most skilled gunman/sniper is a woman, and at one point she's training everyone to help defend their home. (I don't think I gave out too many spoilers there...)

And I know I talk about the show a lot, but I remember on LOST that Kate was routinely one of the most bad-ass characters.

I do find it hard to believe that these women's personalities would change so much in response to the tragedy, and I also find it rather disturbing that the pressure would be there for women to revert to these roles.

(I know that one notable example in the post-apocalyptic genre is The Handmaid's Tale, but the reasoning behind those gender roles in that novel makes sense... but I don't want to spoil it, so I won't say more.)

Loretta wrote: "Oh Kathy, that's fine. There are certain books that I'm absolutely rabid in my endorsement of, so I can understand the emotional attachment.

I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't actually c..."

Loretta, I wasn't concerned w/ you sounding harsh, I was concerned about me sounding harsh in my defensiveness. lol. Like some kid on the playground w/ my fists raised caused you said something about my BFF. lol

I didn't see any problem w/ the women in the book or how they were portrayed or saw any sexism there. Maybe it's cause I'm older (guessing), I don't know. Just because a women is in the kitchen doesn't mean she's secondary in her "marriage". Stu being from the south and a "simpler" way of life, maybe he doesn't know yet how to cook or anything. I'm sure Frannie will teach him a thing or two.

So - I am finished with chapter 49, but haven't gotten to 50 yet. Just wanted to hop on here and say...

What's up with Nadine Cross?? Interesting things going on with that girl. I have to say, I have never really trusted her from the time Larry met up with her a Joe. She just seems "off" somehow. Will be interesting to see how her character progresses.

I will be back when I finish Chapter 50 to read all the posts and post the rest of my thoughts.

Lyn, I actually feel kind of dumb, because I didn't see the Nadine/Flagg predestination coming at ALL. I want to see how that develops.

Don't feel dumb. I didn't see exactly that coming. She just seemed weird to me, so when it finally happened, I was like, AHHHH. That explains a lot!

When things are revealed, it's definitey....as Oprah would say....and AHA moment! lol

I finished this section this morning. This book is getting more and more interesting.

-I knew Harould wasn't to be trusted. Let's see if he actually goes through with his plan or not.

- After reading the encounter between Abigail and Nadine, I am beginning to wonder if Nadine isn't another manifestation of The Dark Man.

- I love that they are calling Flagg et al the Adversary.

- I can't wait for Larry to actually meet Harold. I wonder if he will pick out his flaws quickly.

- I, too, am having a hard time seeing Larry as anything other than a self absorbed ladies man. He was so snarky in the beginning, it is hard to have him change so easily.

-What's up with the Judge and his staring at Abigail when he meets her? Does he see something about her that we don't?

I'm waiting to see what happens with Nadine and Harold the most of any of the "good people" we have met so far. We know Harold is plotting to go to the dark side after he gets even, but is Nadine shady or is King just trying to make us focus on her for some other reason.

I read beyond the end of this section and didn't realize that I hadn't posted my thoughts yet so I'm going to be tight lipped in an effort not to give something important away. I know people (myself included) got behind and are still in the process of catching up.

I agree, Andrea. They are the two "good" people that I am most interested in at this point.

But as you say, I am behind and still trying to catch up, so we shall see.

I'm glad you guys are using the "good" the way you are. I think this just goes to show you that the two of them had a choice and chose badly.

Can someone remind me of whether Harold dreamed of Mother Abagail? I seem to remember that he did (which would indicate that, at least initially, he was "meant" to be on the good side but converted due to jealousy and bitterness).

I do recall that Nadine only dreamed of the Dark Man and never of Mother Abagail.

I believe that Harold did dream of Mother Abagail. His jealousy and bitterness is definitely what drove him on. Several times he questions his decision....but continues on his path....

Yes, I thought I remembered him doing that, which is why I was so disappointed in his turn.

I also remember how Larry saw him from a distance... Harold clearly made some intelligent choices while he was helping lead their little group out West... but, as Frannie admits, she just took all his efforts for granted, and didn't realize how he made some things that were in fact rather difficult seem so easy.

I can't help but wonder if someone had given him some positive reinforcement somewhere alone the way, he might've chosen differently.

I guess I just feel for him because he's clearly been an outcast his whole life for the way he looks and his weird style of speech... but deep down, he was "good" until his bitterness at the way he was always treated took over.

I guess I'm holding out a spark of hope for his redemption, though it's very small.

Loretta, as you read the next sections some of wehat we are discussing comes to light. I don't wont to spoil for those that are still catching up but I think some of our insight about Harold is right on the money!

Harold was supposed to be good isn taht he did dream about Mother Abigail. I guess Nadine on the other hand, was bad because she dreamed of the dark man. It is hard to see that she is from the bad though since she took care of Joe (aka: Leo)

I finished Week 12, which does have some more of his wavering from dark to a little lighter, to darker again. I'm working on Week 13 this afternoon.

LOL, I don't know why I'm so freakin' attached to Harold Lauder, to be honest. I just can't give up on him.

I'm in the same boat Loretta so i guess we'll sink together giving him the benefit of the doubt.

LMAO. I hope the boat has some life preservers...

Hahaha, let's hope so!

Andrea wrote: "Loretta, as you read the next sections some of wehat we are discussing comes to light. I don't wont to spoil for those that are still catching up but I think some of our insight about Harold is rig..."

I'm very frustrated w/ my feelings for Nadine. I don't see her as being "bad" at all. Yes somehow, from her backstory, she seems almost "promised" to The Dark Man from a very young age. But promised by who? She didn't seem to have much of a choice, which is sad.

Loretta, I never liked Larry either, not until the very end. Nadine, she always rubbed me the wrong way. Harold, it is sad the way things have never worked out for him, but he's a weasle.

I really don't understand why Larry is so hung up on Nadine. Perhaps it's because he can't have her?

Yes, Nadine almost seems like the perfect example of how "playing hard to get" works.

With Harold, I guess it's kind of like how some men are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have it thrust upon them. Harold certainly is a weasel, to use your term, but he was made that way through, I think, a pretty rough life. I suppose that I sympathaize with Harold so much because I think most people have that latent darkness in them, and his was brought out through circumstance. Maybe it's just my dark view of humanity then.

As I read this, it occurs to me that Trashcan Man and Harold had very similar childhoods. Both had mannerisms/behaviors that made them outcasts. So maybe it is not so surprising that Harold acts as he does. Another interesting parallel that King plants between the two societies. These parallels are really beginning to intrigue me.

That's such an interesting point, Lyn. I didn't focus on those similarities before.

It makes me wonder why we never met the "Larry" or the "Stu" of the Las Vegas folks.

Interestingly, Loretta, I am convinced they must be there, and I am still looking for them.

Well, on the good side have 4 major players, chosen leaders if you will. On the bad side, we have Flagg and his minions. Perhaps thats is why? We did get inside Floyd and Trashcan Man's heads on the other hand.

Loretta wrote: "Yes, I thought I remembered him doing that, which is why I was so disappointed in his turn.

I also remember how Larry saw him from a distance... Harold clearly made some intelligent choices while..."

I like your way of thinking here. Harold, in some ways, reminds me of my ex-husband, actually. Not that he's a total creeper, just in that immature manner of someone who perhaps didn't get encouraged enough by the right people in the things he DID get right, therefore became bitter and decides to burn ALL his bridges with people, or at least has the opportunity to feel that way.

It's easy to forget that he is, in fact, only a teenager. The way he thinks and talks, he seems like he should be maybe mid twenties or something at least, but he's what, sixteen? He's an immature boy thrown into a very different world and feeling like he should have some power in it; and perhaps he should, but he can't expect everything at once.