Christian Support Group :) discussion

There wasn't a topic for this, so I hope you all don't mind if I make one. What are your opinions? I know many of you will believe that it is immoral due to the words of the bible, but do you think that it should be against the law the way it is?

Black Cat wrote: "There wasn't a topic for this, so I hope you all don't mind if I make one. What are your opinions? I know many of you will believe that it is immoral due to the words of the bible, but do you thi..."
Well it's against Gods law
So I believe it should also
Be against mans law.
After all we are supposed
To be following the Word
Of God.
And this is coming from a
Person struggling with this
Herself. And the WofG is
Going to win this battle.

It's not just against His law, God hates it. He destroyed entire cities because of it.

People are free to do whatever they want as far as personal choices, but if you're talking about marriage, then I'd have to say yes, I think it should be against the law.

Marriage is a Christian institution and gay marriage would be a perversion of it.

Kristen wrote: "It's not just against His law, God hates it. He destroyed entire cities because of it.

People are free to do whatever they want as far as personal choices, but if you're talking about marriage, th..."

I agree totally!

Was our country not founded on the pretense of religious freedom? Shouldn't religion be kept out of politics all together? After all, you can be married in the Jewish or Islamic religions as well. You can be married in almost any religion. It's not just Christianity.

I personally don't believe that God dislikes it, but that's is my personal opinion. What matters is politics. Sure, the couple may not be able to get married in a Christian church, but why not able to be (by law) married? After all, if you take the religion out of it, marriage is simply a court document. Religion or not, homosexual couples should be able to have the benefits of marriage.

Black Cat wrote: "Was our country not founded on the pretense of religious freedom? Shouldn't religion be kept out of politics all together? After all, you can be married in the Jewish or Islamic religions as well...."

You can't separate Christ
From self. What God says
Is more important than
Politics. Heaven or Hell
Is the issue not politics.

Romans 1:
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

But if we were to incorporate religion into politics, this would no longer be a religiously free nation. It would mean that Islamic, Jewish, and Atheist Americans would have to abide by Christian laws, and we'd be no better than Afghanistan is with the Muslim laws that it has. I don't want that, and neither does anyone else. Which is why we cannot allow religion to influence politics in any way, so as to not corrupt the system.

Black Cat wrote: "There wasn't a topic for this, so I hope you all don't mind if I make one. What are your opinions? I know many of you will believe that it is immoral due to the words of the bible, but do you thi..."

I don't think that there is anything wrong with it. I disagree completely with the Bible on that account.
I don't see why it matters, whether God said it was wrong or not. Would you agree with Him if he suddenly said it was right? I think we have to make our own decisions, and if we find ourselves attracted to the same sex, so much that we want to be married, then what is wrong?

Black Cat wrote: "Was our country not founded on the pretense of religious freedom?"

Our country was founded on freedom in general. By Christians.
Separation of Church and State is about the government being able to dictate everyone's religion. No body is telling you what you have to believe is right or wrong.
But this doesn't mean you can do whatever you want either.
You can't go out and rob a bank because you want money.
You can't go murder someone because you don't like them.

Laws have to be based on a standard. God's standard.
If there is no standard, there is chaos.

Murder is wrong because God says Thou shalt not kill.
Stealing is wrong because God says Thou shalt not steal.
Lying, adultery, idolatry, these are some of the ten comandments.

And God says homosexuality is an "abomination". Leviticus 18:22

And it's not just "being married" that's the issue.
Marriage is God's institution. It's a picture of God's relationship with the Church.


"It would mean that Islamic, Jewish, and Atheist Americans would have to abide by Christian laws, and we'd be no better than Afghanistan is with the Muslim laws that it has."

This is not true. We're not about to put people to death because they don't believe like we do.
That's what Islam says - kill the infidel.
Christianity influencing laws is not about dictating how people think, it's about keeping order.

Chiara *♥☺Eat cheesecake.....NOW☺♥* wrote: "I don't think that there is anything wrong with it."

But laws are not supposed to be based on people's opinion's they are(or should be) based on a standard.
People disagree (obviously)

"Would you agree with Him if he suddenly said it was right?"
God does not change.

"I think we have to make our own decisions,"
People make mistakes. God does not.

Our country was founded on freedom in general. By Christians.

That's not necessarily true, many of the founding fathers were Jewish.


You can't go out and rob a bank because you want money.
You can't go murder someone because you don't like them.

You can't do either of those things because they harm the people around you. Homosexual marriage does not (biblically speaking) harm anyone but themselves. Think about it, no one is asking you to give up your rights. No one is asking you to have sex with another female. No one is asking you to do anything. All people are asking is if they can have the same rights as you. The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They can't have liberty if they are not given equal rights, and they cannot pursuit happiness if they are outlawed from being eternally bound to the one they love more than anything in the world.

If you allow everyone to have equal rights, your life will not change a bit. No one is saying you have to agree with what they're doing, you never have to personally have sex with another female, just please be fair to those who do. Love is love, no matter who it's between.

We, as humans, have no right to interfere with love. It's not our place. I'm sure that homosexual couples will love each other forever despite their marriage is against the law or not. But there are many legal benefits that you can get with marriage, and homosexual couples have as much right to those benefits as you and your husband will.

"That's not necessarily true, many of the founding fathers were Jewish."
Lol, ok well I think it's still safe to say that there were Biblical influences in the founding of the country.

"You can't do either of those things because they harm the people around you."
So what? What if I don't care if something harms someone else? If there's no standard, it doesn't matter.

"If you allow everyone to have equal rights, your life will not change a bit. No one is saying you have to agree with what they're doing,"

This is not true. Every day, we are being forced to accept more and more. 50 years ago, it was socially unacceptable to even say the word homosexual. Now it's politically incorrect if you aren't tolerant.
I personally don't care what anyone else wants to do (providing they leave me and God out of it), but when it's being shoved down your throat and you have to accept it. Then I have a problem.
Have you heard of the Hate/thought crimes they're trying to pass? They want to make it illegal to even have your own opinion anymore.

"We, as humans, have no right to interfere with love."

Very true. But God does. He created it.

Lol, ok well I think it's still safe to say that there were Biblical influences in the founding of the country.

True, but Christianity can't take all the credit.


So what? What if I don't care if something harms someone else? If there's no standard, it doesn't matter.

What does this have to do with anything? The bottom line is, homosexuality does not "harm" anyone but the couple involved, so why is it illegal? Logically, there is absolutely no reason to believe it should be illegal other than "because it's in the bible" and "because it's gross". Both of which are logically unsound and therefore not applicable to today's society. There are a number of logical reasons as to why you should not kill someone. There are a number of logical reasons as to why you should not rob a bank. But absolutely no logical reasons as to why you should not be married to the same sex.


but when it's being shoved down your throat and you have to accept it.

Until the 15th Amendment was ratified in 1870, black men were not allowed to vote. People back then said exactly the same things you are saying now. They said that God created to the white man to be dominant over the black man. They said that to legalize equal right to vote would be absolutely unacceptable and would go against God's word. They said that black men being allowed to vote would be shoving their beliefs down their throat.

Yes, you are being forced to accept many things in today's modern society. But no more than the people back then were being forced to accept. And, now that we look back on their arguments 140 years later, we see the ignorance that they possessed and the intolerance for equal rights. People today say the same thing about homosexuals. 140 years from now (I imagine) the generation will look at conservatives arguments in this situation and proclaim "How arrogant they were back then." No one is asking you to get anything shoved down your throat, they are simply asking for equal rights.


They want to make it illegal to even have your own opinion anymore.

If having an opinion requires you causing extreme emotional stress to those in question and ultimately causing them to commit suicide, then I don't want to hear your opinion.


Very true. But God does. He created it.

If an artist brutally smashed a beautiful piece that they had created, simply because they did not like one detail of it, don't you imagine that many people would be upset?

Kristen wrote: "Chiara *♥☺Eat cheesecake.....NOW☺♥* wrote: "I don't think that there is anything wrong with it."

But laws are not supposed to be based on people's opinion's they are(or should be) based on a stand..."

True, but I don't think that I have made a mistake.

"True, but Christianity can't take all the credit."
I never said it could. Just that laws have Biblical influences.

"What does this have to do with anything?"
Because we were talking about laws. Laws have to be based on something. Something absolute. There can't be two different things that are right if they conflict.

"homosexuality does not "harm" anyone"
That is a matter of opinion. If kids are brought into the mix, I believe it does harm them.
Kids need a mother and a father. They deserve a mother and a father.
The family is another institution of God's.

Yes, I realize, that sometimes a mother and a father in the home is not possible, but that's the way it was meant to be.

"Logically, there is absolutely no reason to believe it should be illegal other than "because it's in the bible" and "because it's gross". Both of which are logically unsound and therefore not applicable to today's society."
Logical to you maybe, not me.

"There are a number of logical reasons as to why you should not kill someone. There are a number of logical reasons as to why you should not rob a bank."
Like what?
You don't have to understand my logic. If it makes sense to me and there's no standard, it doesn't really matter what anyone else says.

"Until the 15th Amendment was ratified in 1870, black men were not allowed to vote. People back then said exactly the same things you are saying now."
Racism is not condoned in the Bible. Anyone saying scripture supports it now or then, is wrong. There isn't any scripture to support it. God loves everyone equally. But that doesn't mean He loves what everyone does.
And there is scripture against homosexuality.

"No one is asking you to get anything shoved down your throat, they are simply asking for equal rights."
Really?
Heard of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy?
The military does not want it. But they are being forced to accept it.
The military chaplains are being told to accept it or get out. They won't be able to preach freely the way they should be.
I don't care what anyone wants to believe, that's between them and God. But when they start forcing others to modify their beliefs it's a problem.

"If having an opinion requires you causing extreme emotional stress to those in question and ultimately causing them to commit suicide, then I don't want to hear your opinion."
I don't have control over how others think. And I never said it was right to harass anyone else. People can maturely disagree.
And I'm sorry, but there is never an excuse for suicide. Everyone's got problems.
All I'm saying is, it's not the government's place to decide what you or I believe.

"If an artist brutally smashed a beautiful piece that they had created, simply because they did not like one detail of it, don't you imagine that many people would be upset?"
I don't know if I quite understand what you're saying here.
God isn't destroying anything. God has laws, and He count's homosexuality against those laws.
And as far as your illustration, the creator has the right to do whatever he wants with his creation. Even if people are upset.

Chiara *♥☺Eat cheesecake.....NOW☺♥* wrote: "True, but I don't think that I have made a mistake. "

You have the right to your opinion. And I have the right to disagree. That's the beautiful thing about a free country.
At least for now....*sigh*

Because we were talking about laws. Laws have to be based on something. Something absolute. There can't be two different things that are right if they conflict.

You can't base the laws of an entire country off of one faith, it doesn't work that way. There are literally hundreds of interpretations of God, probably more. Several of which believe that there isn't even a God at all. Therefore, to have the laws of the country be based off of the teachings in the bible, it would be unfair and unjust. You can't be sure that what you believe is the absolute truth, so to base our laws off of the teachings of Christianity may possibly be enforcing a lie.


Logical to you maybe, not me.

Then explain your logic.


Like what?

I'm sorry, are you asking me for the logical reasons as to why I should not murder someone other than the teachings of the bible? I think this is a bit obvious for me to spend time typing out the numerous reasons in a long list.


Anyone saying scripture supports it now or then, is wrong.

Can you prove this?


The military does not want it. But they are being forced to accept it.

It was passed as a law, therefore they are being forced to accept it as a law. I imagine that many people did not agree with the texting while driving law as well, and yet they were "forced" to accept it.


I don't care what anyone wants to believe, that's between them and God. But when they start forcing others to modify their beliefs it's a problem.

I said from the beginning that we're not asking you to modify your personal beliefs, just to give everyone equal rights.


And I'm sorry, but there is never an excuse for suicide. Everyone's got problems.

You're saying that we should sympathize those who provoked the suicide instead of those who committed it?


I don't know if I quite understand what you're saying here.

Love is something beautiful. Something that God created. And for God to interfere with that love like you say he does would be to destroy something beautiful. Ergo, God is the artist and love is the piece.


the creator has the right to do whatever he wants with his creation.

But to destroy it would be cruel, and I don't think we have a cruel God.

Black Cat wrote: "You can't base the laws of an entire country off of one faith, it doesn't work that way. There are literally hundreds of interpretations of God, probably more. Several of which believe that there isn't even a God at all. Therefore, to have the laws of the country be based off of the teachings in the bible, it would be unfair and unjust."

I'm not saying laws need to be based off of one faith. I'm saying there needs to be one standard for everybody. And since not everybody agrees, there needs to be an outside source for those standards.

"You can't be sure that what you believe is the absolute truth"

I can and I am. But nobody says you have to agree with me.

"Then explain your logic."
Not everyone thinks the same way, so everyone's logic is going to be slightly different. You say there's nothing wrong with it, but I say, God says there is.
God cannot be separated from my logic, because my faith is such an integral part of my life.
You do not believe the same way I do, therefore your logic is going to be different from mine.

"I'm sorry, are you asking me for the logical reasons as to why I should not murder someone other than the teachings of the bible? I think this is a bit obvious for me to spend time typing out the numerous reasons in a long list."
I'm asking you for logical reasons that murder is wrong if there is no standard. Because without one, there are no logical reasons. As I said before, people think differently. Logic is going to be different.
Terrorists don't find anything wrong with taking human life. It's logical for them, because for them it's just a way to achieve a goal.

"Anyone saying scripture supports it now or then, is wrong.

Can you prove this?"

Yes, I can. There is no scripture to support it. Quite the opposite actually.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I John 3:1 - Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God:

John 13:1 - Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 15:9 - As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

John 17:24 -Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 5:7 - Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Ephesians 3:16-21
16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Ephesians 2:4-5
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Psalm 36:7 - How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

Psalm 86:15 - But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, long suffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.

Jeremiah 31:3 - The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Zephaniah 3:17 - The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

1 John 4:9-10
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

And that's not even all of them. Again and again, the Bible tells of God's love. A love, we as humans cannot even comprehend. A love so great that He sent His Son to die for us.
This love is not qualified by race or anything else.
On the contrary "For God so loved the WORLD"


"It was passed as a law, therefore they are being forced to accept it as a law. I imagine that many people did not agree with the texting while driving law as well, and yet they were "forced" to accept it."
I don't think anyone is debating the morality of texting while driving. It distracts you and can cause you to kill someone. That is completely different than forcing someone to change what they believe in.

"I said from the beginning that we're not asking you to modify your personal beliefs, just to give everyone equal rights."
You might not be, but the Hate/thought crimes bill is.

"You're saying that we should sympathize those who provoked the suicide instead of those who committed it?"
I'm saying that two wrongs do not make a right. And both parties are wrong.
Hate is wrong.
And there is always another option than suicide.

"Love is something beautiful. Something that God created. And for God to interfere with that love like you say he does would be to destroy something beautiful. Ergo, God is the artist and love is the piece."
He created it, therefore, He makes the laws.

"But to destroy it would be cruel, and I don't think we have a cruel God."
Cruel to you maybe.
But you're right, He is not a cruel God. He is a God of Love. But He's also a God of order and laws.
Above all else God is Holy and cannot stand sin. To Him that's what it is.

And I have a question. If this is all about freedom, then how come no one cares about my freedom in all of this? People always seem to overlook the injustices done to Christians for some reason.
(Not that I'm talking to you personally)
As I said, people are free to think what they want and live however they want.
But Marriage is a Christian institution. It has to be performed by someone who has been ordained.
And people want to change the law so that everyone who does marriages HAS to perform these marriages. Even if they don't agree with it. It's discrimination to refuse.
Civil unions are an option if all they want is to be recognized as a couple in the eyes of the law. I could care less who wants to do that.
But leave God out of it.

And the Hate/Crimes bill. If it were to pass. This whole discussion is illegal. At least my side of it.
That limits my freedom.
How is it right to do that?
I'm not hurting anyone. I'm not calling anyone names. I'm simply representing what is in the Bible - my faith.
Why is that wrong?

And the chaplains in the military. How is it right to dictate what they preach? Isn't that a right under the constitution. The freedom of religion?

And it's one step away from the law coming into churches and dictating what they can and cannot preach. Is that right?

Wouldn't you agree that people should be able to preach whatever they want in their own church?


You see, it's about more than just marriage. It's a step towards more government control and less freedom for everyone.

Black Cat wrote: "But to destroy it would be cruel, and I don't think we have a cruel God. "

And don't forget, God already destroyed the world once.

I'm not saying laws need to be based off of one faith. I'm saying there needs to be one standard for everybody. And since not everybody agrees, there needs to be an outside source for those standards.

What standard do you think it should be then? And what are your reasons for thinking it should be that standard?


I can and I am. But nobody says you have to agree with me.

What is the logic to back this up?


God cannot be separated from my logic, because my faith is such an integral part of my life.

That's not what we're talking about, we're talking about whether or not homosexual marriage should be legal. What God tells you or doesn't tell you is irrelevant because it does not affect the people in this world. What do you think would be a logical reason for homosexual people to not be married if they do not share the same faith as you do?


Terrorists don't find anything wrong with taking human life. It's logical for them, because for them it's just a way to achieve a goal.

The value of life in general varies depending on who you're asking, logic has nothing to do with that.


Cruel to you maybe.

You honestly believe that destroying, smashing, and killing something as beautiful as love is not cruel?


If this is all about freedom, then how come no one cares about my freedom in all of this? People always seem to overlook the injustices done to Christians for some reason.

Before I can answer this, I would like to wonder where you got the idea, that of all the religions in the world right now, Christianity is the one being persecuted. With all the suffering, all the torture, and all the subjugation that Muslims and Jews are forced to suffer throughout different parts of the world (including America, in many cases), Christians are the ones who have a complaint. Christianity is, and for many years has been, the largest and most powerful religion in existence. And yet Christians are the ones with a complaint. You're really making me lose my temper here, for a question like that is self-rightous, self-absorbed, and just flat-out arrogant.


But Marriage is a Christian institution.

This is ABSOLUTELY NOT true. The roots of marriage date back to the ancient Greeks, Hebrews, and Egyptians. The Roman Catholic church just stamped it's name on it and made several changes.


And the Hate/Crimes bill. If it were to pass. This whole discussion is illegal. At least my side of it.

You honestly believe that gay teenagers should be discriminated and put down because of who they are? You honestly think that it's ok to cause someone extreme emotional distress and psychiatric damage just because of your "faith" in the bible? No, it is NOT ok, and it shouldn't be said anywhere that it IS ok anymore than it should be said that all blacks should be put down for the color of their skin.


And it's one step away from the law coming into churches and dictating what they can and cannot preach. Is that right?

Are churches preaching to do everything you can to make gays feel bad? Because if they are, your argument completely fails.


Wouldn't you agree that people should be able to preach whatever they want in their own church?

Not at the expense of others.


You see, it's about more than just marriage. It's a step towards more government control and less freedom for everyone.

Again with the small government crap. I swear to god I hear this bull every day of my life from Conservatives. Get over yourself, no one is persecuting you. You're not that important.


And don't forget, God already destroyed the world once.

According to the bible, which was written by flawed creatures called man.


I apologize for sounding so harsh, but an argument as arrogant as the one you just made is enough to make my sanity crack.

You are putting an awful lot of words in my mouth. I'm simply stating my opinion. Which is just as valid as anyone else's. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean I'm wrong.
And, I'm sorry, my point is not to sound arrogant or make anyone mad. I'm only repeating what's in the Bible, which I completely accept as truth.

"What standard do you think it should be then? And what are your reasons for thinking it should be that standard?"
Well, the only outside influence I can think of is God. This is not saying it has to be any specific denomination. Just that specific commands given by Him need to be observed. Such as the 10 commandments. Murder, lying, stealing, adultery. Do any of these sound morally right or denomination specific?

"What is the logic to back this up?
That's not what we're talking about, we're talking about whether or not homosexual marriage should be legal. What God tells you or doesn't tell you is irrelevant because it does not affect the people in this world. What do you think would be a logical reason for homosexual people to not be married if they do not share the same faith as you do?"

I state again, God cannot be separated from my logic. My logic is not the same as yours. And it's not relevant to you, perhaps, but it's very relevant to me.
Honestly, I feel as if we are going in circles on this point. There is nothing you can say to me to change my opinion. And I'm guessing the same is true of you.
So, shall we agree to disagree?

"The value of life in general varies depending on who you're asking, logic has nothing to do with that."
So, are you saying that if someone does not value human life, it's ok? As long as it's logical to them, is murder ok?

"You honestly believe that destroying, smashing, and killing something as beautiful as love is not cruel?"
Beauty is subjective. What you find beautiful, God may not.

"Before I can answer this, I would like to wonder where you got the idea, that of all the religions in the world right now, Christianity is the one being persecuted. With all the suffering, all the torture, and all the subjugation that Muslims and Jews are forced to suffer throughout different parts of the world (including America, in many cases), Christians are the ones who have a complaint. Christianity is, and for many years has been, the largest and most powerful religion in existence. And yet Christians are the ones with a complaint. You're really making me lose my temper here, for a question like that is self-rightous, self-absorbed, and just flat-out arrogant."

First of all, I never said that Christianity was the only religion being persecuted. And I wasn't referring to the world and every situation. I was referring to specific things in our country.
If I say I don't believe it's ok for homosexuals to be married. You say I'm being hateful and intolerant.
If I say I think abortion is murder. You say I'm trying to take away women's rights.
(I'm using 'you' in the general form, btw, not you personally.)

Prayer used to be integral in all schools. Now it's seen as discrimination (or whatever the argument) of those who don't believe that way.
So where is the freedom for Christians who want to pray?
Or read their Bible?
I've never heard of silent prayer or Bible reading being harmful to anyone.
Bible classes certainly aren't tolerated. Yet, certain places want to force Islam study into their classrooms.
How is this freedom for Christians?
And I bring up the Churches and military again.

You hear discrimination being screamed by alot of people and they get sympathy. But when Christians try to stand up for themselves and retain their rights, we get labeled as intolerant, hateful, and arrogant.

I'm a Christian and I only have a complaint when I'm being forced to change things for someone else's sake. I'm not forcing anyone to see things the way I do or persecuting anyone else.

"This is ABSOLUTELY NOT true. The roots of marriage date back to the ancient Greeks, Hebrews, and Egyptians. The Roman Catholic church just stamped it's name on it and made several changes."

God performed the first marriage in the Garden of Eden. Long before the Greeks, Hebrews, and Egyptians were even around. I never said I was referring to the Catholic church.

"You honestly believe that gay teenagers should be discriminated and put down because of who they are? You honestly think that it's ok to cause someone extreme emotional distress and psychiatric damage just because of your "faith" in the bible? No, it is NOT ok, and it shouldn't be said anywhere that it IS ok anymore than it should be said that all blacks should be put down for the color of their skin."

Please remind me of when I ever said anything like that? I said hate is wrong. Harassment is wrong.
Just because I believe it's wrong for someone to kill themselves doesn't mean I sympathize with anyone else.
You can respect someone even if you don't agree with them.

"Are churches preaching to do everything you can to make gays feel bad? Because if they are, your argument completely fails."
No, my church does not teach that at all. My church teaches what the Bible says, which is to "Love your neighbor as yourself."
But that doesn't mean we have to accept everything that someone else thinks is ok.
No one is forcing gays to attend my church. You said it yourself, there are hundreds of ways to interpret God.
Freedom of religion guarantees that I'm allowed to believe whatever I want, even if I believe something that to you is crazy. A person may believe it's wrong to use electricity. They have that right. But what they don't have the right to do is come into your house and tell you that you can't use it either because you're offending them.

"Not at the expense of others."
How exactly is it at the expense of anyone else.
I already stated that it's not right to harass someone else. That hate is wrong.
How then is my believing that something is wrong at the expense of anyone else?
God never tells us to take care of other people's problems. That's His job.

"Again with the small government crap. I swear to god I hear this bull every day of my life from Conservatives. Get over yourself, no one is persecuting you. You're not that important."

Small government is the battle going on in this country in case you haven't noticed. It's not the governments job to tell me how to live my life, that's why this nation was founded, they got away from oppression.
Government's job is keeping order,not micromanagement.

"You're not that important."
And speaking of sounding childish.
Every single person is important. And their views are just as valid as yours. All men are created equal. Sound familiar?

"According to the bible, which was written by flawed creatures called man."
Inspired by God. God gave every word.

"I apologize for sounding so harsh, but an argument as arrogant as the one you just made is enough to make my sanity crack."
Again I say, it is not my intent to upset anyone, but I have an opinion and I'm entitled to it. As are you.

...How do you know God won't change his mind on things?

*Mrs.Brightside* wrote: "...How do you know God won't change his mind on things?"

Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not;

Psalm 102:26-27
26. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure; yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed.
27. But thou art the same, and they years shall have no end.

Psalm 33:11 - The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Numbers 23:19 - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent; hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

One of these passages is enough for me, but whenever God repeats something a few times, it's really important.

So, shall we agree to disagree?

I suppose you're right, so yes.


I'm a Christian and I only have a complaint when I'm being forced to change things for someone else's sake. I'm not forcing anyone to see things the way I do or persecuting anyone else.

Once again you fail to realize that Christians aren't the ones being discriminated here. Of all the religions in the world, Christianity is the one with the most power. I know someone who goes to my same school who was bullied and tortured on a daily basis for being an Atheist. Hell, Atheists were criticized and told they were offending people for putting up a sign on a highway that said "Adults Don't Have Imaginary Friends". And yet every single day I see signs everywhere asking me to find out whether or not I'm going to hell, whether or not I'm a true Christian, to repent my sins or I'm going to hell. All these different things, and atheists get persecuted for one sign. Now, being a Christian, I in no way agree with what was on that sign. But I believe that Atheists have every right to express what they believe in in whatever form they wish.


governments job to tell me how to live my life

Exactly, just like it's not the government's job to tell me who I can and can't marry, what I decide to do about my fetus when I'm pregnant, what drugs I decide to put in my body, what religious laws to abide to...a government like that would possibly be much bigger than what democrats and liberals want.


Every single person is important. And their views are just as valid as yours. All men are created equal. Sound familiar?

That wasn't what I said, and you know it. What I said was that nobody really cares what some Christians believe and don't believe, and society is not personally out to get you like you make it sound.


Inspired by God. God gave every word.

Inspiration is not the same thing as perfection.


Again I say, it is not my intent to upset anyone, but I have an opinion and I'm entitled to it. As are you.

But you obviously think that your religious views are correct and there is no way that anyone else's could be.

Black Cat wrote: "Once again you fail to realize that Christians aren't the ones being discriminated here."

But they are, it's just that you personally haven't seen it.
I never said that Christians were the only ones being discriminated against.
The world is a hateful place. There is going to be discrimination all over.

"But I believe that Atheists have every right to express what they believe in in whatever form they wish"
I agree. I don't believe in censorship. People have the right to their opinion. So long as it doesn't cross that line to become a personal attack or slander.

"Exactly, just like it's not the government's job to tell me who I can and can't marry, what I decide to do about my fetus when I'm pregnant, what drugs I decide to put in my body, what religious laws to abide to...a government like that would possibly be much bigger than what democrats and liberals want."

These are all moral things, which go back to those basic standards. Not denomination specific laws.
I won't go into the marriage thing since we dropped that.
But abortion is murder. It's taking a life. A very small, vulnerable life. What about the rights of that person?
If murder is wrong, so is abortion.
As far as drugs, that has affects on other people. Not just the person taking them.

And "a government like that" is the kind we've always had in this country. Since it's founding, God's laws (as in the 10 commandments) have always been the basis to our government's laws.

"nobody really cares what some Christians believe and don't believe."
Unless of course what some Christians believe isn't politically correct.
Some of the struggles in our country are all about what people believe - gay marriage and abortion. Why aren't people agreed that they should be legal? Because some people find it immoral.

"society is not personally out to get you like you make it sound"
We are obviously not seeing the same things happening.
There was a story not too long ago where a child was taken away from his parents because he told his teacher that his parents made him go to church too much.
That child was removed immediately for "child abuse" and when finally returned (I'm not sure how long after - a month or more), the parents were ordered on how often they could take their own child to church.
That's a personal attack. It's not the first and will not be the last.
A parent has the right to raise their child the way they see fit (outside of actual abuse of course).
And yes, coming into churches and dictating what is being preached is very personal.

"inspiration is not the same thing as perfection."
It is where God is concerned.

"But you obviously think that your religious views are correct and there is no way that anyone else's could be."
I do think my views are right, because I believe what God says. Nothing that I believe in is my own opinion, it comes from God.

The world is a hateful place. There is going to be discrimination all over.

But I'm saying that of all the people that are getting discriminated against, Christians are definitely not the one with the complaint. The reason why no one has respect for Christians is because their views are politically offensive and incorrect. If Christians did their part to stop the discrimination of other people, such as stopping the harassment against gay people despite what they believe in, maybe people would have a bit more respect. People discriminate against those who discriminate, that's currently how the world works. So if the Christian church didn't teach to discriminate (like they do), then maybe they wouldn't get discriminated against.


These are all moral things, which go back to those basic standards. Not denomination specific laws.

But they're moral things that aren't politically correct, therefore they don't pass as moral any longer.


I won't go into the marriage thing since we dropped that.

In case you've forgotten, the title of this thread is Homosexuality. Therefore, I don't think it should be dismissed so easily.


But abortion is murder. It's taking a life. A very small, vulnerable life. What about the rights of that person?

A fetus has absolutely no conception of life, nor the world outside of the womb. Therefore, it is uninformed on these concepts and unable to make a choice. I will put up with a lot of conservative crap, but one thing I will never stand for the subjugation of women's rights. It's her body, she get's to decide what to do with it.

Not to mention the fact that if abortion were to become illegal, a woman would need to be investigated if a miscarriage occurred in order to make sure it wasn't her fault, so a woman would need to register her pregnancy with the government. In what way is this not government control?


As far as drugs, that has affects on other people. Not just the person taking them.

So does alcohol. Do you want to government to take that away too? Yeah, that's real freedom.


Why aren't people agreed that they should be legal? Because some people find it immoral.

Some people do, and others don't. To only consider those who do is discrimination in itself.


There was a story not too long ago where a child was taken away from his parents because he told his teacher that his parents made him go to church too much.

If this actually happened, I want to know the date, the state and town, and the name of the family. I can't accept it as fact, otherwise and would just have blind faith that you were telling the truth.


It is where God is concerned.

Inspiration does not automatically make it that object.


I do think my views are right, because I believe what God says. Nothing that I believe in is my own opinion, it comes from God.

But how do you know that this is what God says? How do you know that your opinion is coming from God? The bible? Blind faith...

Black Cat wrote: "So if the Christian church didn't teach to discriminate (like they do), then maybe they wouldn't get discriminated against."
Not accepting something is not discrimination.
Since you brought up the idea of race. Back when segregation became illegal, did everyone have to like it and agree with it?
Christian churches preach what God says. It's not a doctrine of popularity. It never was. Jesus was hated in His day. He certainly wasn't politically correct.
Respect is something that everyone deserves as a human being. My views should not affect whether I get that respect or not.
And again, two wrongs do not make a right. Just because a Christian discriminates does not make it ok for them to be discriminated against.

"If Christians did their part to stop the discrimination of other people, such as stopping the harassment against gay people despite what they believe in, maybe people would have a bit more respect."
So I'm supposed to control what other people are doing? If I don't get in the face of people harassing someone, what happens is my fault?
I'm not saying that it's right to stand idly by while someone is really being hurt, but people get called names all the time. I certainly was growing up. I have 3 older siblings.
But the argument is not about Christians doing anything. It's about Christians condoning things.

"But they're moral things that aren't politically correct, therefore they don't pass as moral any longer."
That is your opinion.
Please tell me then, what the basis of laws should be, if not God.
There has to be one standard for everyone. If there isn't there is chaos. If murder is ok for one person and not for another, What determines who's right and who's wrong?
People can't do it, because people have different opinions.
There has to be the same standard for everyone. Unless you're saying there should be inequality.

"In case you've forgotten, the title of this thread is Homosexuality. Therefore, I don't think it should be dismissed so easily."
Yes, but marriage is not the only issue with homosexuality. And we are going in circles with that topic.

"A fetus has absolutely no conception of life, nor the world outside of the womb. Therefore, it is uninformed on these concepts and unable to make a choice. I will put up with a lot of conservative crap, but one thing I will never stand for the subjugation of women's rights. It's her body, she get's to decide what to do with it."
And what about that baby's rights?
We are all guaranteed the right to life by the declaration of independence.
Abortion goes against that.
You say that a fetus has no conception of life.
But if someone put you in a dark room the minute you were born and never let you out, does that make it ok to kill you since you have no conception of life outside of that room?
A fetus is a living person.
The heart starts beating at 5 weeks.
There is brain activity at 25 weeks.
7 or 8 weeks, the baby starts to move.
28 weeks the eyes are open.
20 weeks the baby can hear.
28 weeks they can feel pain.
Have you ever studied the various ways abortions are performed? Because I have. They're brutal and painful.
You say you can't stand subjugation of woman's rights.
Well what I can't stand is murder of babies. It's cruel, disgusting, and unnecessary.
No one is forcing that woman to keep her baby and raise it herself. There are plenty of people in the world that can't have children and would gladly take an unwanted one.

"Not to mention the fact that if abortion were to become illegal, a woman would need to be investigated if a miscarriage occurred in order to make sure it wasn't her fault, so a woman would need to register her pregnancy with the government. In what way is this not government control?"
I have never heard this argument before. Women have miscarriages all the time.
They had them long before abortion was legal and it was never a question of if it was on purpose.

"So does alcohol. Do you want to government to take that away too? Yeah, that's real freedom"
Did I say we should take away drugs and alcohol?
You are free to do whatever you want to your body, but there are laws on them for good reasons.

"Some people do, and others don't. To only consider those who do is discrimination in itself."
My point was that not everyone is agreed.

"If this actually happened, I want to know the date, the state and town, and the name of the family. I can't accept it as fact, otherwise and would just have blind faith that you were telling the truth."
Well, seeing as how I cannot tell the future and I did not anticipate this discussion, I did not get all the facts. I hear so many things like this, I sort of don't keep track.
You can't simply disregard my argument because you personally did not hear it first hand.
For all I know, you're making up the things you're telling me.
I assure you though, this and many other situations like it are happening all over.
If you want specifics, contact the Christian Law Association. They exist because discrimination against Christians exists.

"Inspiration does not automatically make it that object."
God would not have linked Himself to the Bible, if it was not perfect. Jesus accepted it.
If it was not perfect, He would not have. It would make Him a liar.

That's kind of rude to say it's gross, and not natural.

Black Cat wrote: "The world is a hateful place. There is going to be discrimination all over.

But I'm saying that of all the people that are getting discriminated against, Christians are definitely not the one with..."


I don't know if you're planning on replying or not, but I just want to say, I don't see alot of equality and logic in your arguments.

You said "we cannot allow religion to influence politics in any way, so as to not corrupt the system." and that "to have the laws of the country be based off of the teachings in the bible, it would be unfair and unjust."
But you have yet to offer any idea aside from morality(God's law), that would be an acceptable standard for everyone. The same standard for everyone. Something that would offer equality and "not corrupt the system".

You said that all people deserve "the same rights as you. The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
You want to apply this to homosexuals, but not unborn babies?
That doesn't seem logical or fair.
It seems like bias, preference, and inequality.

You said "If an artist brutally smashed a beautiful piece that they had created, simply because they did not like one detail of it, don't you imagine that many people would be upset?"
and
"Love is something beautiful. Something that God created. And for God to interfere with that love like you say he does would be to destroy something beautiful."
Is love any more beautiful than life? Didn't God create life?
I'm not saying that homosexuals can't be together. In fact I said that civil unions were an option that I really don't care if they want to take advantage of.
Asking them to leave God out of something that God finds to be an abomination is not even CLOSE to taking a life. Something that God has clearly commanded is wrong.
Don't you imagine, if people are upset about the creator destroying His creation, that people would be much more upset about someone else destroying another one of His creations? A more fragile and precious creation? Only in that case, the outside party has absolutely NO right to destroy what they did not create.
Again, I do not see your logic.
You say gays deserve the right to marriage based on the Declaration of Independence, but you do not think it's wrong to deny unborn babies those same rights.
Please explain how this is logical or fair?

You said that the Christian belief on homosexuality was wrong because it's "at the expense of others."
But please explain how abortion could in ANY way not be at the expense of that baby?
Where is the logic to support that abortion is ok, if you truly believe what you told me about my beliefs being at the expense of others.
How is causing someone to kill himself worse than doing the killing?
It's not.
In the situation of suicide, the person gets to choose.

That mother is selfish enough to put herself before her child. She's taking a life she did not create simply because she can't be bothered. Because "it's her body."
But it's not only her body.

And as a matter of fact, abortions are dangerous for the mother as well.
Abortions can cause breast cancer, future ectopic pregnancies, Pelvic Inflammatory Disease, Abruptio Placenta, infertility, psychological and emotional trauma (which can cause depression, anger, nightmares, sexual dysfunction, increased alcohol and drug abuse, eating disorders, anxiety, flashbacks of the abortion procedure, anniversary syndrome, suicide), bone marrow depression, anemia, liver damage, lung disease, heavy bleeding for up to 40 days, Post Abortion Stress Syndrome(which is a form of PTSS) which causes a whole list of other problems.

And side effects are not a rare occurrence either.
61 percent experience flashbacks
54 percent have anniversary reactions
33 percent feel suicidal
78 percent have feelings of diminished control of their lives
52 percent experience difficulty developing and maintaining relationships
49 percent begin or increase drug use

http://ramahinternational.org/abortio...

How come you don't see any of that advertised by pro-choice groups?
Even if it wasn't an issue of taking a life, abortion is just a bad idea.


But I guess abortion is not the topic on this thread, homosexuality is.
You asked our opinions and I gave you mine. Or rather, I gave you God's.

*Mrs.Brightside* wrote: "That's kind of rude to say it's gross, and not natural."

Rudeness does not dictate opinions. And wasn't that what the topic was about? Our opinions?

...Is it? Well, I was just saying that's kind of rude...I don't think I was saying any more.

I know. But it wasn't meant to be personal. In my opinion the idea of homosexuality is unnatural, revolting, and just plain wrong.
That doesn't mean I think that way of the people.

I don't know if that sounds very clear, so here's an example.
When I was growing up my family did alot with another family. Our moms were friends and all of us kids were pretty close in age.
Anyway, this other mom found mice particularly gross. One day her son came in holding a dead mouse in a mouse trap by the tail going 'Mom, look what we caught!'
She shrieked and jumped on the chair and started yelling at him to get away from her.
It was pretty funny actually.
But the point is, that mother's love didn't diminish any because of it, she just found what her son was doing to be particularly disgusting. He didn't see anything wrong with it, he thought it was great.

So it is with this, my respect for a person doesn't necessarily diminish because I find what they're doing and what they think is ok, to be gross.

same here. i think its wrong, and goes against gods law for marriage to be something between a man and woman, not a woman and and woman or a man and a man. but the problem is. we all know someone. and their your friend, and you want them to be happy. so its a tough thing. but i agree that its wrong and goes against the church in every way.

I agree to the same thing, it goes ageist what the bible clearly states, but no one cares.
The big reason for that, is because people think the Bible is just a book, written for only enjoyment. So they don't believe that what it says is true

Oh boy. I'm going to have to reply to all of this later. I think I feel a headache coming on.

But, for now, I believe I'll simply stick to the discrimination against Christians topic that you brought up. A friend of mine sent me this video, and I honestly think it makes a very, very valid point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pwwvB...

Please understand that I in no way want to continue this discussion of discrimination, as it will ultimately solve absolutely nothing and will not fix any problems. So, if you choose to reply to this video, keep in mind that I will not respond. I simply felt it was something that any Christian who thinks they are being discriminated against should see. I would hate for the world to be this way. Where I live, the first thing that is asked of one when meeting a new person (after names are exchanged, of course) is "What church do you go to?" This makes me depressed, because my very closest friend is an atheist, and therefore feels scared, unhappy, and very much alone. If she reveals what she really believes, then she will be put down for her beliefs and made to feel as if she is something bad, that does not belong. She cannot express what she truly feels to the people she meets and feels trapped, forced to pretend how she feels simply to be accepted. I am all she has for a friend, and this is why I have no patience with those who feel that Christians are being discriminated against. Because my friend is forced to suffer every day of her life, and has become bitter and foul because of it. She is not the friend I know I have, she is someone who has been twisted by society into feeling that she is part of the ground, something dirty to be stepped on and forgotten about.

Black Cat wrote: "Oh boy. I'm going to have to reply to all of this later. I think I feel a headache coming on.

But, for now, I believe I'll simply stick to the discrimination against Christians topic that you br..."

First of all, I must say, this video is a bit ridiculous. Someone else posted another one of these elsewhere and I couldn't even stomach the whole thing of that. This one wasn't quite as bad, but still.
The prayer thing, There HAS been prayer in classrooms since the founding of the country up until recently. But that's not the main issue. The main issue where the discrimination comes in is telling that one child they are not allowed to pray on school grounds.
If the school wants to ban the idea of having everyone participate, fine, but don't stifle those who still want to.
The same goes with Bible reading and Bible groups.
The Christmas thing is taken way out of context. I mean there may have been a few nuts that took it to the extreme, but the main thing was about them taking Christ out of Christmas. It's His holiday.
Yes, I know not everyone believes in Jesus, but if they don't, why celebrate his birthday? And lets face it most people go Christmas shopping, not "holiday" shopping.
That whole thing came about because FIRST a few people got all upset about people saying the word Christmas. They said it was discriminatory - not everyone believes in Christmas. So what? if that cashier or whoever does, let them say Christmas.

And I think there was a little plug for taking the pledge of allegiance out as well.
This is a disgrace. Kids need to learn respect for this country. They are not currently taught respect for anything or anyone.

I could go on, but I don't want to have to watch that video again to remember my points.

Yes I agree, I won't continue on discrimination. But know that there are people actually dying all over the world just because they are Christians. I just hope we don't get so far gone in this country that it happens here.
http://www.persecution.com/public/new...

"the first thing that is asked of one when meeting a new person (after names are exchanged, of course) is "What church do you go to?""
Do you mind if I ask? Where do you live?
I went to a Christian college and we didn't even do that there.

"If she reveals what she really believes, then she will be put down for her beliefs and made to feel as if she is something bad, that does not belong."
I'm sorry for that. That is not what Christianity is about. We are supposed to love everybody.
We are to share the gospel, not force it on people.
If that is what's happening, it shouldn't be.
I really despise people like this, they give Christians a bad name.
I'm certainly not like that, I have alot of friends who do not believe as I do.
Alot of the time, I don't even have to say anything about my beliefs, people around me just know. Not that I'm bragging - I'm not. But when I worked at certain places, I was there to work, I didn't stop and witness to everybody. But they just knew I was a Christian somehow.

"is why I have no patience with those who feel that Christians are being discriminated against. Because my friend is forced to suffer every day of her life, and has become bitter and foul because of it."

As I said, I'm sorry about your friend. Things ought not to be that way. But discrimination for Christians is just as real, even if you personally don't see it.

Well... I guess I'll start here. Sorry if I take the arguments personally, and I apologize in advance if I say something rude.

Well, first of all, homosexuality is natural. It's been documented in animals, like lions, dolphins, sheep, zebras, baboons, buffalo, ducks, foxes and tons more rather commonly. If that doesn't constitute as natural, what does?

And you can't say something shouldn't exist because you find it gross. If you find insects gross, does that mean they shouldn't exist? (I'm just using 'you' for lack of something else to put there, I'm not talking to any of you personally.)

Also, I think it's unfair to discriminate against someone who really has no control over what people consider to be 'wrong' with him/her. Gay people don't have a say in what gender they are attracted to. If they did have a choice, why on Earth would they be gay? Constantly being bullied, being unaccepted for who you are, and made fun of is no walk in the park.

Exactly- I agree with you completely.

I'm taking a psychology class right now and I just got done reading the part on how the brains differ between straight men and women and gay men and lesbians.

They went through various studies that indicated all the 'evidence' to support that we are "born gay" or not(that it's biological) because of how our brain activity and hemisphere sizes and all those different aspects differ if we are gay or straight.
But they fail to mention that their studies are extremely limited.
They are limited to a specific number of willing volunteers who are capable of skewing the results as far as their answers go about feelings and things.
And they are limited by time. All they have to go with is the 'here and now' They have no way to go back and determine how all those very scientific findings looked 1 year or 5 years ago.
They fail to mention the adaptability of the human brain.
Our brains are constantly growing and changing as we learn and experience new things.

All this information came right after the section on obesity vs anorexia. They point out quite clearly that the body changes - how the body adjusts itself to the way body is at any given time. In other words, in a person who has become extremely obese, the body sets the caloric intake requirements to how that person is at the time.
Even if they later lose all that weight and are in the healthy weight range, their body is still set to how it was when they were obese.

No, we are not 'born that way'. We are all born the same way as far as that goes. Society has a much greater influence on if a person is gay or straight.

The Bible clearly states numerous times that marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman to create a child.

And what's the point of hoimosexuality anyway? all it does is create more problems, diseases, and confused people in this world.

And did God create Adam and another male, or Eve and another female? No, He created Adam and Eve to start the human race togeher and THAT is what every marriage should be based on: man and woman getting married to have a child.

And Nobody can be born with homosexuality, it is a decision by that person to feel that way and be confused.

Regardless of what you believe about how gross or unnatural homosexuality is, the Bible is pretty vocal against it. Here's one from Revelation:

"Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

("dog" is a derogatory label for male homosexual prostitutes)

There are places where you have to choose between the Bible and humanitarian teachings. It's tough to ask a Christian to choose "nice" over God.

"I just don't agree with it, and I don't think that people are "born gay". They make that decision as they get older."

Gay people say that it's not a choice. Why on Earth would anyone choose to be gay?

"No, we are not 'born that way'. We are all born the same way as far as that goes. Society has a much greater influence on if a person is gay or straight."

If that's true, it still seems that they don't have much of a choice.

"The Bible clearly states numerous times that marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman to create a child."

There are things in the Bible that you probably shouldn't believe in. I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but there are some really wacky things in there. Not that I'm disagreeing with any of the core values and teachings of the Bible, I'm just saying that some of the stuff on the side gets absurd at times.

"And what's the point of hoimosexuality anyway? all it does is create more problems, diseases, and confused people in this world."

Okay. What's the point of heterosexuality?
------
Lee, what I said before. Some things the Bible says is just not right...

If you want some examples, here's a link...: http://www.churchhopping.com/ten-vers...

The Pervy Sage wrote: "Gay people say that it's not a choice. Why on Earth would anyone choose to be gay?"

Love is a choice. You always have a choice in who you love. Love is not just an emotion. There isn't any love at first sight. You cannot love someone without knowing them. You can like what they look like or lust after them, but not truly love them. Love is work. Love is making the difficult decision and putting someone else before yourself. It's not just a nice feeling you get when you think about someone else. That can fade. Emotions are erratic.
According to the Bible, homosexuality is an abomination. It's sin and sin is tempting. Satan is very good at confusing people to make them think they do not have a choice.
Yes, being gay is a choice.

"If that's true, it still seems that they don't have much of a choice."

I meant, society says it's ok to be gay, therefore people do not feel it's wrong. I wasn't talking about individual opinions.
How many gay pride parades were there 100 years ago? None. Because society still looked at it as sin. Today, it's considered just the way you were born.

"There are things in the Bible that you probably shouldn't believe in. I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but th..."

Wacky to human logic perhaps, not to God (assuming you are talking about things like the flood, Jesus feeding the 5000, Jonah living 3 days&nights in a fish - miraculous stuff)
As far as that website you posted, I find it interesting that every verse is not taken in context and is from a different version of the Bible.
This is where different versions are problems - they are not translated correctly, and yes, you very well may see some crazy things.
And to understand what a verse is talking about, you must know many other things - context, culture, etc.
I did not read them all, I personally think it's a waste of my time to do so, but I did read one I will explain. And yes, I have heard it preached on - the title of the website is false.

[Genesis 38:8-10 NASB
Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.
Comments: Not only do you have to carry the body out, but you have to mop the floor too.]

First of all, wrong translation, but I'll live.
If you know the story of what's going on here, it's not so crazy at all.
It's the story of Tamar.
She was given to Judah's first born son as his wife. He was wicked and God judged him and struck him dead.
As per the custom of the day, she was then to marry the next son so that the family line would be carried on. The first son of that marriage was to be the oldest brother's(the dead one) in name(legally) and would inherit the largest portion of everything. All children after that would be the actual father's.
Onan was the 2nd son. He didn't want to give her a son and miss out on the inheritance he would get if there were no children. Polygamy was also part of the custom, so he'd be able to take another wife later and have his own children by her.
He was stealing the inheritance. He was also stealing Tamar's future. In that society women weren't valued very much. They were completely dependent on first their fathers, then their husbands, then their children. He was taking away her chance to have any security or value in the future.
He just wanted Tamar as a concubine basically, but he didn't want to give her any kids.
And God then struck him dead for his wickedness.

Francine Rivers wrote an excellent story on this in A Lineage of Grace.

See, not crazy. You just have to understand what's going on.

There's not one thing in the Bible that is not to be accepted and believed 100%. Sometimes you just have to do some studying on it.

"Love is a choice."

I disagree. I don't believe in 'love at first sight', but love is not a choice. You cannot choose who to love. If I were to sit next to someone on the bus, I could strike up a conversation with that person, even go out on a date, but I couldn't love him if I thought he was disgusting or cruel, no matter how much I 'knew' him, or how much I wanted to.

I fail to understand how again and again, I see straight people thinking that they know more about being gay than gay people. I mean, really?

"Jonah living 3 days&nights in a fish"

So, you believe this?
-----

I know some of those had to be taken out of context.

But really, some of them are virtually unexplainable.

Unfortunately, more and more people tend to think homosexuality is normal and natural, and starts form birth.

That is wrong. Being that way is a choice, and for the people who choose to be that way, I feel sorry for them. They are confused people, and I pray for them to change.

Scientists have said that therapy for these people changes them back to the way they were born: normal and straight.

I love everyone on this Earth. We are All children of God. But I disagree completely with the way they choose to live their life; they waist there life acting this way.

Pray for this to end.

The Pervy Sage wrote: ""Love is a choice."

I disagree. I don't believe in 'love at first sight', but love is not a choice. You cannot choose who to love..."

I suppose this is where the real disagreement is. We will probably never agree on it.
I'm curious though, what does love mean to you? Because I can say I love someone but if my actions don't match up, you would not believe me.
For instance, the abusive alcoholic husband may say -may believe- that he truly loves his wife. But if he doesn't get himself straightened out. He doesn't love her. Not more than himself.

Love that should be the most natural love in the world, people choose not to give sometimes. It's instinctive for parents to love their children. Yet we see again and again how sometimes parents choose to not love their kids. Some parents neglect and abuse their kids. Some abandon them. Some murder them.
They choose not to love them and do those things.

Love is demonstrated through actions. Actions are our choice. Whether to be selfish or unselfish. True love is unselfish. It's putting the interests of someone else before yourself. I do not see how two people deciding to be gay and being together, does that for either one of them.
By your argument, in today's society you are ostracized for being gay, yes? So, if someone really loves that person, wouldn't they want to save them from that pain and humiliation?
Most people want children. You can't have children if you're gay. Not with the person you say you love, anyway. Why would you want to have someone else's child?
And being gay brings on other problems.
I don't see how any of this shows love at all.
All I see is someone saying, I can't help how I feel. But that's not love. It's emotions.

"I fail to understand how again and again, I see straight people thinking that they know more about being gay than gay people. I mean, really?"

By this I assume you are talking about the argument of it being a choice?
I can't speak for all straight people, alot of them aren't Christians. But as for the Christians, God says it's a sin. Sin is a choice.


"So, you believe this?"
I believe every word in the Bible.

"I know some of those had to be taken out of context.
But really, some of them are virtually unexplainable."

Only if you don't understand it.
They are all taken out of context. Because understanding even one verse in the Bible, takes study. I've heard entire sermons on just a few words.
People dedicate their lives to studying the Bible because it's not something you can get, just by glancing at it. If something seems crazy, you need more study. And generally, if something sounds crazy, that's where sin got in the way - making it so.
But that doesn't mean there's not an explanation. Just one you don't know.

Sorry, Kirsten, I don't have time at the moment to reply to your post, but I will. Sorry if I have offended anyone.

The Pervy Sage wrote: "Sorry, Kirsten, I don't have time at the moment to reply to your post, but I will. Sorry if I have offended anyone."

Whenever you have time.
I'm not offended. I enjoy debating different people. It nice when that can be done without hurt feeling ruining it.
I also do not mean to be offensive by anything Im saying.

May I just say something that has no relation to this?
I thought we decided to have no debating or debating related topics. The 'Homosexuality' is a very controversial topic.

That's true.
If anyone has a problem with how this thread is going, I'll let it go. I don't mean to cause problems.

I'm curious though, when does it become a problem on here? I just thought it was to keep things from getting too heated. - IMO, mature people should be able to debate and not take it personally - not saying I'm perfect with this, but just a thought.

Because really, discussion is just another word for debate.
What's the line?

And, yes it is a controversial issue. But then, isn't Christianity a controversial message?
It's not a popular view in today's world. God very specifically says certain things are wrong, and not everyone likes that.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious here. I'm really wondering. B/c as I said, I'm not trying to start trouble.