Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Let's start discussing the Knight's tale, one of the longer of the tales.

The main source for the tale seems to be Boccaccio, though there are echoes of other sources within it. One commentary suggests that the philosophical aspects are drawn in part from Boethius's Consolation of Philosophy, which the source contends that Chaucer was probably in the process of translating at the time he wrote the Tales.

Thebes and Athens, if you remember your Greek drama and history, were two of the larger city-states of ancient Greece. They were variously at war and allied, depending on the various circumstances of who was attacking whom when.

Theseus was a legendary king, some say the legendary founder, of Athens. I believe it is more likely than not that there was an actual king named Theseus in the history of Athens, but if so legend has so overwhelmed his story that it is impossible to separate fact from fable. He was the hero of the original sword-in-the-stone fable which became part of the Arthurian legend -- in Thesus's case, his alleged father, Aegeus, said if that if, when he reached manhood, he could lift a certain rock under which he, Aegeus, has placed sandals and a sword, he was to take them and travel to Athens. This he did, braving many dangers along the way. It was Theseus who, legend has it, volunteered to go to Crete as part of the annual sacrifice of young men and maidens; he defeated the Minotaur and escaped from the labyrinth with the aid of Ariadne and a thread she gave him. (Part I, line 980) He had many other legendary adventures; his defeat of the Amazons who lived along the shores of the Black Sea, is one being relevant to the Knight's story.

Everyman wrote: The main source for the tale seems to be Boccaccio, though there are echoes of other sources within it.

Thanks for this info Everyman. My Notes say that Chaucer both translated and 'freely borrowed from Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy'. He is said to have met Boccaccio when in Italy so the Decameron was probably another reference point. As ever, all our great authors are giants standing on the shoulders of giants!

Also that 'Perithous and Theseus must, for the metre, be pronounced as words of four and three syllables respectively - the vowel at the end not being dipthongated but enunciated separately, as if the words were printed Pe-ri-tho-us, The-se-us. The same rule applies in such words as 'creature' and sciences' which are trisyllables.'

The 'watering of St Thomas', mentioned at the beginning of The Knight's Tale, is the second milestone on the Old Kent Road to Canterbury, so called from a brook or spring dedicated to St. Thomas à Becket.

'And forth we riden a litel more than pas,
Unto the watering of Seint Thomàs,
And then our host began his hors arrest.'

Ben Jonson, in The New Inn, makes mention of the spot in the following lines:—

'These are the arts
Or seven liberal deadly sciences,
Of pagery, or rather paganism,
As the tides run! to which if he apply him,
He may perhaps take a degree at Tyburn
A year the earlier; come to read a lecture
Upon Aquinas at St. Thomas à Waterings.'

In Tudor times it was the place of execution for the northern parts of Surrey; and here the Vicar of Wandsworth, his chaplain, and two other persons of his household, were hung, drawn, and quartered in 1539 for denying the supremacy of Henry VIII in matters of faith.

'The most noticeable feature on the Old Kent Road is the number of public-houses, each with its swinging sign and drinking-trough for horses, which were once hostelries for pilgrims. Among these houses of "entertainment for man and beast" is the "Kentish Drovers," which has existed here for about a couple of centuries, and was a well-known halting-place on the road to Kent, at a time (not very far distant) when the thoroughfare was bordered on either side by green fields and market gardens. The "Thomas à Becket," at the corner of Albany Road, commemorates the spot where the pilgrims first halted on their way from London to Canterbury.'

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55935853...

That's a beautiful piece of architecture. I imagine it has its own fascinating history.

I found this tale disorienting. While parts of it are faithful to its Greek time (like the bickering among the gods) parts of it are totally anachronistic and from Chaucer's time(like the chivalric tradition of the jousting).

Zeke wrote: "I found this tale disorienting. While parts of it are faithful to its Greek time (like the bickering among the gods) parts of it are totally anachronistic and from Chaucer's time(like the chivalric..."

That's true. The whole knightly bit, the lady fair, the tournament, and all that were definitely 14th century chivalric code imposed onto ancient Greece. This was apparently a fairly normal thing in Chaucer's time, though I only gather that from commentary, not from knowledge of any similar tales or stories.

MadgeUK wrote: "Everyman wrote: The main source for the tale seems to be Boccaccio, though there are echoes of other sources within it.

Thanks for this info Everyman. My Notes say that Chaucer both translated and 'freely borrowed from Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy'.

Note to self: Must read Boethius. I keep stumbling over him.

Laurele wrote: "Note to self: Must read Boethius. I keep stumbling over him.
"

Let's make him a moderator's addition to the next voting list. Then you can lobby for him. He would be great fun to read and discuss here!

Chaucer poses a fascinating question in the Knight's Tale. If you are deeply in love with a person (and we're talking courtly love where your love is emotional rather than physical), is it better to see your love every day but be unable to go beyond that, or is it better to be a hundred miles away with no chance of ever seeing her again but having to live entirely on memory?

Zeke wrote: "I found this tale disorienting. While parts of it are faithful to its Greek time (like the bickering among the gods) parts of it are totally anachronistic and from Chaucer's time(like the chivalric..."

I wonder if all of the elements that the Knight brings to his tale, jumbled as they are, aren't meant to demonstrate something about his education and experience in the world. He pulls in things from the Theban cycle (out of order and filtered through Boccaccio), the dialogue of the gods which sounds very Homeric, philosophical reflections courtesy Boethius, and he frames it in all in tale of chivalry. He's showing off a bit, isn't he?

Thomas wrote: "He's showing off a bit, isn't he? "

That gave me a nice chuckle. But you're right, he's tossing a lot into this stew of a tale. But it all seems to work together, like a good stew, doesn't it?

Everyman wrote: "Chaucer poses a fascinating question in the Knight's Tale. If you are deeply in love with a person (and we're talking courtly love where your love is emotional rather than physical), is it better ..."

Or perhaps the alternatives are
1. to see her every day, but from a prison cell
2. to never see her again but to be free.

I think this is a great story--descriptive, touching, human, Romantic.

Everyman wrote: "Chaucer poses a fascinating question in the Knight's Tale. If you are deeply in love with a person (and we're talking courtly love where your love is emotional rather than physica..."

I think too that it shows that upper class young people of the day did not have many choices about whom they could marry and so losing a love to another became a very serious matter. Young men and women of those times did not travel enough to meet a wide range of partners and they were circumscribed by their birth, nationality etc as to whom they could marry. Rather like those who have to abide by arranged marriages today.

I guess that today we would choose freedom because we would think/know that there were 'more fish in the sea'.

I find the Knight's Tale to be very different in style to the following Tales, and less satisfactory, perhaps because so much is 'borrowed freely' and is not in Chaucer's own style. Of course, the Knight reflects courtly language and the other characters are from the lower orders but even so I find it rather clumsy. It may also be because the original tale would have been told in the Romance language:-

http://www.wsu.edu/~delahoyd/medieval...

From Wikipedia: The term "Romance" comes from the Vulgar Latin adverb romanice, derived from Romanicus: for instance, in the expression romanice loqui, "to speak in Roman" (that is, the Latin vernacular), contrasted with latine loqui, "to speak in Latin" (Medieval Latin, the conservative version of the language used in writing and formal contexts or as a lingua franca), and with barbarice loqui, "to speak in Barbarian" (the non-Latin languages of the peoples that conquered the Roman Empire). From this adverb the noun romance originated, which applied initially to anything written romanice, or "in the Roman vernacular".

The Knight's character, particularly the humour, reminded me of Don Quixote, which is also a book written in the Romance language.

Rochelle wrote: "That's a beautiful piece of architecture. I imagine it has its own fascinating history."

Yes. That is a pic of the Victorian building which was built upon the original medieval foundations.

Edited: I have put some pics of a medieval coaching inn and house in Canterbury, such as our pilgrims might have used. on the Chaucer Life & times thread as well as some more pics of medieval architecture in the UK.

I didn't think that I would like this book. But, I enjoyed this tale. I didn't find the mixing of traditions as off putting as some of you.

I may be completely wrong here. But, Chaucer may have been trying to give this new work, written in a comparatively under used language, some legitimacy by placing it in such an old tradition. In addition, He may have been trying to hint that the English court and their ways may be traced back to the ancient world. In the same manner that Henry VIII found his legitimacy by using and adapting the stories of Arther's Round table. Anyway, I am very partial to tales of ancient gods, even if they are written by somebody who was witting several years after they metaphorically died. So, I loved this tale. A really good start to the book. Once again guys and girls, thanks for getting me out of my comfort zone

Vikz wrote: I may be completely wrong here. But, Chaucer may have been trying to give this new work, written in a comparatively under used language, some legitimacy by placing it in such an old tradition.

That is a very good point Vikz! I love these ancient tales too and in my youf I was very partial to tales about the handsome Greek gods:).

Vikz wrote: "Chaucer may have been trying to give this new work, written in a comparatively under used language, some legitimacy by placing it in such an old tradition. In addition, He may have been trying to hint that the English court and their ways may be traced back to the ancient world."

Interesting thought! I wonder whether the originals from which he drew the story also had that mix of chivalric and classical elements, or whether that was his addition. I'll have to go see whether I can dig up the Boccaccio which was the main source.

Vikz wrote: "Once again guys and girls, thanks for getting me out of my comfort zone "

Our very great pleasure!

MadgeUK wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Chaucer poses a fascinating question in the Knight's Tale. If you are deeply in love with a person (and we're talking courtly love where your love is emotional rather than physica..."

TMI.

Zeke wrote: "I found this tale disorienting. While parts of it are faithful to its Greek time (like the bickering among the gods) parts of it are totally anachronistic and from Chaucer's time(like the chivalric..."
I agree, Zeke. When Theseus encounters the two Thebans dueling, he speaks to them in a very Christian way- emphasizing the quality of mercy any empathy, then lays down a challenge that will inevitably result in much bloodshed. I don't remember much about the ancient Greek ethos, but charity, mercy and kindness weren't a priority, I am sure.

Everyman wrote: "Thomas wrote: "He's showing off a bit, isn't he? "

That gave me a nice chuckle. But you're right, he's tossing a lot into this stew of a tale. But it all seems to work together, like a good stew..."
It does work very well, it's a wonderful story!

It's a funny tale, though. I think that the whole Palamoun/Arcite conflict is hilarious, because it illustrates how meaningless jealousy can be to the outsider. Even if Chaucer meant it to be somewhat a dolorous tale, the outrageous reactions of the two doomed cousins make me chuckle – and not in a heartless way.

As to Everyman's question in post 9, I think Chaucer points out that neither situation is optimum, and of course he attributes a lot of the story to Fortune and various god-figures to emphasize that there is sometimes no choice in the matter. But then again, I still have to conclude this monster read of a tale.

1.1 wrote: "It's a funny tale, though. I think that the whole Palamoun/Arcite conflict is hilarious, because it illustrates how meaningless jealousy can be to the outsider. Even if Chaucer meant it to be somew..."

The thing which really got to me was the fact that these two men were building dream worlds around a woman who knew nothing about their intent or indeed their existence. In addition, neither man bothers to ascertain her wishes. Although, this may have been the way that thing were both in ancient Greece and in Chaucer's own time.

Vikz wrote: "The thing which really got to me was the fact that these two men were building dream worlds around a woman who knew nothing about their intent or indeed their existence. In addition, neither man bothers to ascertain her wishes. Although, this may have been the way that thing were both in ancient Greece and in Chaucer's own time. "

Bingo. Not so much in ancient Greece, but definitely in the aristocratic world of the 14th century where Chaucer was living and writing, women of that class were married off, sometimes to men they didn't meet until their wedding day. Their desires weren't considered of any importance. What's interesting, I think, is that this would not have been the case for most of the pilgrims, who came from a level of society where women weren't pawns of power or influence or money; where women don't have value beyond themselves, they are freer to choose for themselves. But where they represent power or influence (the daughter of a ruler, the heiress of fortune or land), what they represent is what matters most.

As you point out, Chaucer reflects this very much in the Knight's tale. Emily is not only beautiful, but as Theseus's sister marriage with her would be of great political and economic benefit. (Would the story have worked if the woman they saw, let's say looking and acting precisely like Emily, had in fact been a serving wench?)

One of the fascinating things about the Tales is that they represent so many different genres of writing. We should keep an eye out for this as we read through the Tales. It's not every writer who can write successfully in so many genres.

The Knight's Tale is of a genre sometimes called a chivalric romance. These were very popular in old French, and in the stories which eventually were drawn on to create Le Morte d'Arthur.

Did anyone catch the connections with Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream?

Laurele wrote: "Did anyone catch the connections with Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream?"

Theseus, Athens, two men in love with the same woman, running around in the woods? Yeah. I loved it. ;-)

Zeke wrote: "I found this tale disorienting. While parts of it are faithful to its Greek time (like the bickering among the gods) parts of it are totally anachronistic and from Chaucer's time(like the chivalric..."

I dunno, I thought it was great. As Laurele mentioned below, it has similarities to A Midsummer Night's Dream, and that also has its anachronistic bits. After a few discussions with you, though, I think we have slightly different reading styles; you're more analytical than I am, so it makes sense it'd bug you.

What is the term for the rhetorical device where a speakers announces that he will not do something as a way of doing exactly the thing he said he was not going to do? The Knight seems to use this quite a bit, but I am not sure I know what the effect is or why he does it.

As in, "I will not tell you a long story?" Or did you have another example in mind?

Apophasis.

One reason, perhaps, that the Knight's Tale is so unhistorical in its use of chivalric principles is that the Middle Ages had very little knowledge of the history or culture of Greece. They knew the legends mostly through Ovid, Virgil, and the other Latin authors, but they had very little information about classical Greece, so he really had little basis for knowing exactly how they would have behaved even if he had wanted to.

John wrote: "Apophasis."

More specifically, paralipsis, (which is a type of apophasis, I think.)

Or possibly our parfit gentil knyght just wanted to tell a story his listeners could relate to and include a touch of the exotic, a perfectly nice chivalric romance with a few Greek (Roman) gods to spice things up. Most people, even those who were literate, couldn't have been very knowledgeable of places as far away as Greece. So this might be a way for the knight to show himself as widely traveled, as having seen strange places and customs.

Our awareness of anachronisms seems a result of the huge amount of historical information we have available. The situation was quite different in the 14th century. Were there any historians outside of monasteries, or perhaps those chroniclers hired by monarchs?

Kate Mc. wrote: "Or possibly our parfit gentil knyght just wanted to tell a story his listeners could relate to and include a touch of the exotic, a perfectly nice chivalric romance with a few Greek gods to spice t..."

I like that idea. Yes, the Knight was clearly well traveled, including to the holy land, which probably many of his listeners thought was right next to Greece just as some Europeans used to think that because a person lived in Los Angeles they were right next door to San Francisco.

I think the story is pretty cool, personally. The bees knees.

Kate Mc. wrote: "Or possibly our parfit gentil knyght just wanted to tell a story his listeners could relate to and include a touch of the exotic, a perfectly nice chivalric romance with a few Greek gods to spice t..."
Yes, I think we take for granted all of the information available now. It was reading the threads for the CT discussion that stimulated my interest in reading the Tales, I have learned a lot. Thanks!

Everyman, do you know when The Greeks became more widely read?

During the Renaissance, with the rise of Erasmian textual criticism and the like.

Laurele wrote: "Did anyone catch the connections with Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream?"

Yes, Shakespeare could have drawn on Chaucer for the Theseus story in MND, or he could have drawn on Plutarch's Life of Theseus, or Ovid in his retelling of the legend of Pyramus and Thysbe. Ovid's Metamorphoses was one of Shakespeare's most important sources, and it is thought that he read Ovid's text in its original Latin, as Chaucer may have done.

Sasha wrote: ..do you know when The Greeks became more widely read?

From a Timeline on Greek Literature:

'240 BC 240 BC - We have also shown how powerfully Rome came under the influence of Greek literature and Greek art; and how the first actual invasion of Rome by Greek literature was made under Livius Andronicus, who, in 240 BC, produced the first play before a Roman audience.

146 BC - 9. From the year 146 BC forward, Greek literature begins to hold a place in - Roman history along witli the advance of Roman sway over the Greek world. By the time of Augustus nearly all the Greeks of Europe, Asia, and Egypt have become either immediate or ...9. From the year 146 BC forward, Greek literature begins to hold a place in - Roman history along witli the advance of Roman sway over the Greek world. By the time of Augustus nearly all the Greeks of Europe, Asia, and Egypt have become either immediate or federate subjects of Rome. Their literature, therefore, on this ground claims the attention of the student of Roman history; but still more because many Greek writers busied themselves with the history and antiquities of Rome.'

The great Library of Alexandria, the first of its kind and started by the Greek, Demetrius of Phaleron in 367BC, housed many works from the ancient Greek world, such as those by Plato and Socrates. These were borrowed, copied and disseminated around the Greek/Roman world. Tragically,it was accidently destroyed by fire by Julius Caesar in 46BC:(.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3707641.stm

After Constantine and the Christianisation of the Roman world, Greek literature was spread through the monasteries, where it was copied for wealthy patrons in Europe (and elsewhere).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scriptorium

The Bodleian Library at Oxford University, founded in 1320, is the oldest library in Europe and this housed a great deal of Greek literature which was consulted (but not borrowed) by authors like Chaucer and Milton. It also houses every book published in the UK. The National Library of Paris, founded in 1368, is the oldest lending library in Europe.

(Edited.)

That's all well and good, but there are 1,000 years between Constantine and Chaucer.

MadgeUK wrote: "Sasha wrote: ..do you know when The Greeks became more widely rea
From a Timeline on Greek Literature:

'240 BC 240 BC - We have also shown how powerfully Rome came under the influence of Greek..."

Thanks for the information. It's nice to imagine an alternative world where the library of Alexandria survived ;)

I don't remember much about the ancient Greek ethos, but charity, mercy and kindness weren't a priority, I am sure.

The word ethos is Greek and means 'moral, showing moral character'. There are three categories of ethos when using rhetoric as a means of persuasion (in plays for instance):-.

phronesis - practical skills & wisdom
arete - virtue, goodness
eunoia - goodwill towards the audience

The Greek goddess Eleus (Roman Clementia) was the goddess of mercy and compassion. Charity, mercy and kindness are encompassed in The Golden Rule, which predates both the Greeks and Christianity.

Everyman wrote: "One of the fascinating things about the Tales is that they represent so many different genres of writing. We should keep an eye out for this as we read through the Tales. It's not every writer wh..."

Just wondering, Would Chaucer have thought in genres? When did the idea of genres arise?

Everyman wrote: "Vikz wrote: "The thing which really got to me was the fact that these two men were building dream worlds around a woman who knew nothing about their intent or indeed their existence. In addition, n..."

Does anybody know the position of women in ancient Greece? I studied women's studies. But, we focused on Rome.

It's sort of hard to think outside of genres.

As far as women, it depends on when. Mycenaean Greece? Homeric Greece? The Age of Tyrants? It also depends on the polis with which you're concerned.

John wrote: "It's sort of hard to think outside of genres."

Yes, it is difficult for the modern reader. That's how we have been trained to think. That's our dominant discourse. And its hard, if not impossible, to break free of the dominant discourse. But, what about readers at the time when Chaucer was Writing? Were they there in ancient Greece. I know they had the concepts tragedy and comedy. But, did it go any further than that? I know that the divisions, that we make, between the arts and science are relatively new. Did that apply to the genres? I not sure.

Yes, there was more than just comedy and tragedy. Satire had been well developed, more in Rome than in Greece. They had epic and elegiac and pastoral poetry and odes, too. But by the time Chaucer was writing, you have the big story cycles like Boccaccio's "Decameron" (and later Marguerite de Navarre's "Heptameron") the narrative structure from which Chaucer drew heavily.

Of course, these are just the fictional genres (a distinction which wouldn't have made sense to almost any of the above.) There were historical chronicles, philosophy, theology, et cetera as well.

Vikz wrote: Does anybody know the position of women in ancient Greece? I studied women's studies. But, we focused on Rome. "

'As Everyman mentioned in post 25, it was upper class women who had the worse time of it as they were pawns in their fathers and husband's games (we see this too in Midsummer Night's Dream). In the city-states of ancient Greece women had very few rights. They were under the control and protection of their father, husband, or a male relative for their entire lives. Women had no role in politics. Women with any wealth did not work. They stayed indoors running their households. The only public job of importance for a woman was as a religious priestess.

It was the wives who supervised the slaves and managed the household responsibilities, such as weaving and cooking. In affluent homes, women had a completely separate area of the house where men were not permitted. In the homes of the poor, separate areas were not available. Poor women often worked outside the home, assisting their husbands at the market or at some other job.

Athenian philosophers, except Plato, held that women had a very poor mind but a strong emotional realm. They could harm themselves and other people, therefore they should be protected from themselves and, if it’s possible, incapacitated.

A woman could own things such as clothes, jewellery, slaves, however, she wasn’t able to buy anything, to own a land or to contract. A guardian controlled all aspects of her life. Athenian citizenship enabled her to marry another citizen, to partake in religious ceremonies, but she still had no voting right or financial independence.

Girls in Athens got married soon after puberty to much older men. Young Greek’s guardian was obliged to provide bride a suitable dowry. Betrothal symbolised groom’ s full approval of fiancée and her dowry. Usually, there were two reasons for marriages: the management of property and production of future heirs, emotions played no role there.

Each wife’s duty was to bear legitimate children and to manage the chores in an economical way. She was expected to remain inside her home; women seen in the street were prostitutes, slaves or they were just so poor, that they had to work on their own. The most important activities of a good wife were childcare, spinning and weaving. Athenians thought that the best woman was the one of whom the least was heard, whether if it was good or bad, and that it behoves woman to go out not before she was old.'

However, it turns out that Athenian’s reality differed from their ideals. There’s some evidence that there were women, who could read, write and vase paintings suggest that they frequently gathered together. There were some notable exceptions to the rule and some talented and powerful Greek women are listed here:-

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/anc...

MadgeUK wrote: "Vikz wrote: Does anybody know the position of women in ancient Greece? I studied women's studies. But, we focused on Rome. "

'As Everyman mentioned in post 25, it was upper class women who had the..."

Thanks for this