North Liberty Readers discussion

Discussion thread for Shogun by James Clavell.

I'm on page 303. I'm really liking this book and found it really hard to put it down last night. It's interesting to watch the characters grow and develop, though sometimes I find it hard to keep up with the truth since a character will tell one person one thing and another something completely different. I know it's to show the intrigue behind the scenes, but sometimes I feel a little lost.

I think I am now in the back stretch....I am officially in the beginning 800's and the plot thickens slowly...I am hoping to get some real MEAT soon to add to the intrigue...I am really impressed by the history involved in the writing...WOW. LOVE LOVE LOVE the samurai history...and then the addition of the geishas...love this...

I do have a few quirps though...but I'll save those for when you get finished Sonja...or Jenni when you get to reading this book. I'll just say this about those for now.....WHAT ABOUT HIS ORIGINAL CREW???

I'm on page 544 and am really getting into this book. It took a little bit to really pick up, but I feel like it's moving a lot better now. I've also been wondering what happened to his original crew... He's back in the town where he started now, and I haven't heard anything about them.

It takes awhile to get back to them...and I agree about the lull of the story...but there is always that hint of intrigue that keeps me reading. I am enjoying the writing...but I can't decide if I really like it or not. It is kind like a cross between a Michener and Clancy...LOL!!! Lots of detail between the lines but not entirely the most brilliant writing. Definitely an ambitious subject though.... WOW

I'm sometimes reminded of Les Miserables while I'm reading it. He's not quite as bad as Victor Hugo, but I sometimes feel like he gets bogged down in telling the history of one moment (not quite as bad as Hugo's 300 page description of the Battle of Waterloo) though the history part is interesting too. I sometimes have trouble keeping up with the different things a character will tell various people and it's sometimes hard to tell which side everyone is on (it seems like they change their minds a lot). It's a very ambitious book, and I'm glad that I'm reading it.

I'm in the mid 800s now. I'm still liking this book. I sometimes get frustrated with Blackthorne and his fixation on Mariko. I also sometimes think that things work out in his favor a LOT. He keeps getting making mistakes and while others would be put to death, he gets by with it... Right now (they just got back to Yedo and Blackthorne's seen his crew and inspected the boat) I want to know what Toranaga has planned. We keep hearing that he's trying to keep up a charade of being testy and anxious, but has a plan underneath it all.

I am enjoying watching Blackthorne grow throughout the book. Blackthorne at the beginning when he thought the Japanese were uncivilized and weird for only eating rice, vegetables, and fish and drinking sake (all he wanted was grog and meat) and taking baths all the time is very different from Blackthorne now. When he saw his crew living as they would in England (lice, fleas, and all) and was put off by it he really struggled within himself, and I thought that was good to see. Sometimes I feel like he's got it too easy.

I totally agree with what you are saying! I am really more intrigued with Toranaga and how he is cleverly manipulating the situation than with Blackthorne and his trysts with Mariko and problems with the priests and Jesuits. I am wondering if it will be Mariko that will end up betraying them both. Toranaga and Blackthorne......since she is in the most diverse situation on both sides...

All in all...I am surprised that I am THIS FAR in the book...almost to 950....and STILL there is no clear big culmination that I am seeing. With this size of novel and the intense build-up Clavell has been weaving so far...I am getting frustrated with the la-de-da.

I agree with the Blackthorne getting free rides idea...I've felt the same. And I think I was more frustrated with his disgust at his men and their living conditions than you. It made me MAD!!!!! I felt like....THESE men are his ROOTS. His MEN. His way HOME. BUT...after seeing how he so easily brushed off his wife and son back in England for Mariko...perhaps it would have happened that way. Sigh. But...Still.....

In a way, I can't WAIT to get finished. In a second way...I'm a little interested to read more of Clavell's Pacific series...I believe the story goes on. I still haven't decided if he is more or less like Michener than I like...or don't like. Doesn't make sense...even to me...LOL!!! We'll see!!!

At this point...NOT a 5 star for me...pushing a 3-4...

I'm in the 3-4 star range too at this point. I kind of think I might read more of his books too. I don't know how soon, but I'd be ok with reading more.

It did bother me how easily he seemed to forget about his wife and son. Every once in a while we see him thinking about it, but not wondering if it's wrong... wondering how he can balance a family in Japan and a family in England. He seems to think he can have everything he wants with no regard for the other people involved.

I guess after that, and slowly seeing him become more and more Japanese without even realizing it, I felt it was good that he struggled with the realization that he had changed so much. What he does with it (if anything) I don't know because I haven't read much further.

I did notice that he didn't seem to be willing to share any of his knowledge/good fortune with them. He just seemed to shut down after he got bitten by a flea. He didn't seem to care what "his" men had been through. With the status he has accumulated, I would think he could help them somehow, but he seemed very put off by the idea that they were living in an eta village and couldn't get past it.

I don't know how I feel. Sometimes I like him and want him to succeed, but other times I get frustrated with him and want to shake him.

I've also wondered if Mariko will end up being the weak link. Both men really rely on her a lot.

I almost feel like parts of this book are more about Toranaga and his strategies/outlooks than Blackthorne sometimes, and I almost find myself liking those sections better...

yes...I agree about liking the Toranaga sections better too. After Blackthorne visited his men in the eta village I really thought he would be STEAMING mad at how they had been forgotten and left to live in those conditions...albeit self-imposed or not. I really thought that he would demand that they be put into better conditions and treated better....AND been a part of that process with them by leading them through it...the better way so to speak. I wish Clavell had spent more time on Blackthorne's thoughts regarding his wife and son...and crew...it seems like they were forgotten and then Clavell had an A-HA moment and thought he ought to put a blurb in for good measure.

On the other side...Blackthorne IS English. And his crew is mostly Portuguese and Dutch. So perhaps he does not feel the comraderie we as women would think he should...AND he was NOT the pilot of that ship until the pilot DIED...so he didn't have complete loyalty from the crew anyway...But still...to practically ignore them...sigh...

I really feel sorry for his wife and son. All of a sudden his one comment on remembering them was more in disgust than anything. Like...being with his wife in the rank dirty sheets back in England was now a major turn-off.......

I am still pretty perplexed by Mariko. She is controlled by her abusive husband and has a way with ALL parties....Toranaga, Blackthorne, the Catholics...EVERYONE who if connected in the right/wrong way can destroy each other...and she is in the middle of it all. Dangerous if you ask me. Not to mention the amount of POWER she has too. Hmmmm.....and really she was from a disgraced family through the coup in the past...so...why so powerful now and favored by Toranaga?

I'm around page 922, and I agree with you that there's not really any culmination in sight. I really hate it when an author wraps up a long book in the last couple of pages, so I hope that's not what happens here. I'd almost rather have to read one of the other books in order to get the rest of the story than have him finish it in a hurry at the end.

Mariko is an interesting character. I'm still not quite sure what part she's going to play in the showdown Clavell is leading us to. Sometimes I think she's going to give up under the burdens placed on her, but other times she seems very strong and aware and I think she's going to be the one that finds the peaceful solution to the conflict.

I am interested to see how (if at all) Blackthorne will integrate the things he's seen and learned in Japan with how things are in England. At this point, I'm not sure he even really wants to go back unless he's given a monetary incentive. I almost feel like he'd be ok with letting people in England believe he was "lost at sea" and continue living in Japan.

My favorite books are the ones where I feel like I'm there, participating in the story. This book feels more like a TV show to me, where I'm watching what's going on, but am removed from the characters. I don't hate this style of writing, but I don't feel as connected to any of the characters. I don't feel like I'd be sad if something happened to them. I'm just not emotionally connecting to this book the way I like to.

I agree with the tv show feel. I've thought of that too. Then I thought...it was written by a man. The male authors of gothic novels like Michener and Clancy tend to feel that way to me. I think Clavell is like them. You are catching up with me! I finally hit 950 last night in bed...so we are in the same places now. Any ONE part of this book...any ONE character would have made a great book. Like wouldn't Toranaga have made a great book? I'd love to have gotten into his head more...as well as Mariko...and I think the Lady Gyota would have been AWESOME as a foreshadowing of the geishas. It will be really interesting to hear Jenni's take on this since she has lived in Japan. I've never been to Japan but I hope to visit someday.

Now that I am sitting here...I think that is my problem with the book. How utterly diverse and complicated ALL characters are---we are introduced personally to many---MANY...Yet...we never seem to be ALLOWED into a deep character development situation. Even Blackthorne and he is the main character. I want to know more about everyone. I feel like I am left with only a piece of the story....not satisfied. I think now that Clavell has bitten off a HUGE chunk of a story but not done the best at being able to pare it down to the gothic novel it was portrayed as or intended to be. This is no Pillars of the Earth or Gone With the Wind or Anna Karenina that's for sure....

You said what I was thinking better than I could have! I want to know them all better, but just can't get there. I haven't read any Clancy and the only Michener I've ever even started is Chesapeake and that was 15 years ago (I think 15 may be too young to attempt a Michener...), so I don't have many experiences with this type of book.

I feel like Clavell is trying too hard to tell a lot of story, and forgets about the characters. The parts of the book that flow the best in my opinion (and the parts that I like the best) are when Clavell seems to forget that he has to get from A to B and actually lets us stay with one character for a little bit. Then he remembers, and we're flying through time again.

Finished! Let me know when you make it...

OMG.....getting there....shall I assume by your exclamation mark you are relieved to be done or that it was an awesome finish? LOL.....I have like 100 pages to go......they are taking Blackthorne to Mariko's funeral right now.....

It felt odd to be done. I don't think it was relief necessarily... But I also didn't think the finish was awesome... I think the exclamation mark was more that I had conquered it. I don't want to give anything away, so I'll shut up until you get there...

I did think it was sad when Mariko died. I feel like she could have had more to do in the story... The rest of the book moves relatively quickly after that.

omgomgomg....I HAVE TO FINISH THIS!!! I'm just getting the buggies as I am struggling to finish. I am really missing Mariko's character and am on the bored side and just wishing it would be DONE WITH ALREADY!!!!!!!! I think I am secretly hoping for a resurrection...NOT!