Queereaders discussion

"That's so gay". Insult or just meaningless banter?
Personally, I've taken it as a insult, because, in most cases, the people that are using it, are referring to something that they think is stupid or dumb.
I hear it literally hundreds of times a day. Although, I guess in High School, it's probably more common. We are trying to at least gently prod people into finding more appropriate and less offensive words to use.
But am I just overreacting, or is it getting really annoying?

I find it very annoying, though, I think it is mostly limited to the younger generation. And it's definitely meant as an insult - it's not like anyone says "Wow, I LOVED that movie! It was so gay!!" It's only used as a pejorative. When I'm around my nieces or nephew (all in their teens) and they slip up and call something gay they generally get a back hand from me and a suggestion to pick a new adjective. I can't say I hear it from many adults. Nor do I remember hearing it much when I was young.

I'm old like Tom and spend much of my time with people who are in their 30's and older, so thankfully have never heard this insult used. The one insult I do hear from time to time that really bugs me is when someone says "you're such a girl", as if being a girl is such a bad thing.

YES!!!!!!! I was sick of it the first time I heard it.

I agree with what you're doing, Hiddenheart. And no, you're not overreacting. No one has the right to insult or abuse others. Even if no harm was intended, people really need to think before they speak. It's never too early to learn.

This topic was discussed on NPR's Talk of the Nation.

I don't hear it that often, except in movies or on TV occasionally. That's an effect of age and hiding in the woods, I guess. But, when I hear it, I too consider it a negative. I don't think we'd get away with saying, "that's so black" or "that's so female".

To the youngling's: Are people using it in the same sense as calling you a fag or cocksucker. Or, are they trying to use an expression that seems less negative to them? Also context and who it's coming from would make a difference to me.

I hear it often in schools ("x is so gay")or around teens and whenever I do I challenge it. It seems to me that x is always a thing, an object. Besides being homophobic, it's lazy speaking. It doesn't convey why these shoes, that tv show, this book, or math or whatever are unliked.

I used to say it in middle school and a little in high school. It was just something to say, and I didn't realize how insulting it was until I had a gay choir director who straightened me out. Now I never say it, and I correct my friends and family when they use that phrase.

Wow, I'm so happy that I'm not the only one that is sick of hearing it.
99% of the time, it's used as an insult, as to say that something isn't right or is stupid.

Kernos: Here, some people do use it as a derogatory "name", as like calling a guy a fag, or a girl a dyke. Most others use it as the above description.

Kernos and Matthew: I'm honestly thinking about using "That's so straight", and see if I get spoken to about it, and if I do, I can make the point that everybody here has shown.

Nancy: I, too have heard the "girl" insult used many times. Although, I've also been told that I'm such a guy, as well. (I guess people around here assume that if I portray myself as a lesbian, then I must be hiding some male body parts? Interesting concept. Last time I checked...LOL).

Matthew: It's also considered something cool to use. Everybody is saying it, so everybody else has to say it, ya know?

We are trying to at least call people on it when we hear it, but it's really hard when it happens every two seconds in 20 different rooms.

If you have not, do read the link Nancy provided. It underscores much that has been said here, but also provides some interesting insights about slang and linguistics or as Matt said, ""cool expressions" de jour".

Interestingly, the one slang term that has survived my entire life is 'cool' which originated from the 40's jazz slang. It's funny that I thought we'd invented it in Jr. High. That and using 'man' as an interjection, like in "Man, he's hot!" were not allowed in my English classes. Do kids still use 'man' that way?

Kernos: I believe that kids do still use it. I know I do. I made the same assumption with the "dude" interjection as well, but I was proven wrong. :)

I suppose "tough toenails" and "rough beans" went the way of "the bee's knee's" :-)

One thing that annoys me (showing my age I guess) are 'Buffyisms' like saying "go with" instead of "go with me". I suppose texting is also changing speaking language.

Hiddenheart,
I'm really glad you asked this question. I'm with you in hearing it as an insult -- usually an insult meant to degrade or devalue. I'm at a point in my life where I have little time for such crap. I always speak up when I hear it and see it as an opportunity to feel proud of myself for taking a stand and hopefully it will have some kind of positive impact on others -- maybe, or maybe not. It doesnt' really matter. I feel I've done my part in speaking up when I hear it.

~Troy

IME, it takes a constant effort to change behavior. I remember back in the '50s, in high school in Illinois, equal rights for blacks was just starting to be addressed in schools and smaller cities. My group included the daughter of a Presbyterian minister who was an activist for blacks. She taught us to stop using black epithets, tell back jokes etc., by constantly objecting to their use. It took time and learning to overcome what had been reflex, accepted behavior, but it worked. By my Jr. year we were having mixed parties and some dating blacks, as if it were normal behavior. Which it is! I was fortunate in having parents without racial prejudices. Even so peer pressure made using inappropriate words and jokes seem OK. We did not understand the hurt they caused.

I think the Gay issues are identical, except we don't have green noses.

We're much different generations, Cassandra which makes a big difference about how we respond to and use words.

'Girl' can certainly be pejorative, but most uses I use or am exposed to are not. Context is everything. Saying, "All right girls and boys, lets get started." is not pejorative. If I say "Girl, you are so..." it's not pejorative to a good friend, but I would never say it to a stranger. It was a common expression used by black females a few decades ago and we would use it in turn. I don't know if it still is in common use. And, in my younger Gay days, guys would often refer to each other as Girl. But that made me uncomfortable.

The one use I used to use was referring to my female employees as my Girls. It was a term of affection and didnt bother them at all, but 3rd parties didnt like it. So I stopped and now call them my bosses ;-) That's being affectionate too. What are pejorative senses of using the word 'girl'?

One thing that bothers me is the seeming acceptability of people putting down males to seemingly empower females. Like your comment about balls above. My bits are external, 2° sexual characteristic, feel good when played with or when playing with and smell delightful. They are on the outside for good reason. To keep sperm alive and to decrease the incidence of testicular cancer. They are certainly not "weak". Misandry is as bad as misogyny.

But, it seems PC to put down males in the media and by feminists. Anti-male comments are everywhere. I'm am activist when it comes to this and point it out at every opportunity.

The pendulum swings, but it is best at rest.

I think everyone is sick of hearing it. It's extremely insulting. One of my closest friends says things are gay when she means a negative, she calls people faggots or fags when she means they're (also) negative. She knows I'm almost exclusively attracted to women, but I guess she thinks I'm just lying to myself? Every time I see those words, I cringe.

I'm very sick of it. I grow kind of obnoxious when someone uses it around me, asking them how they know it's gay, if it came out to them, etc. I've also been known to say "That's so het." Or, in the case of seeing an attractive male and complimenting them, I preface it with "No het, but those are really nice pants." You know, just to clarify.

Usually my protests are met with sighs and rolled eyes, but they generally get trained not to say it around me.

I did have an extended conversation with one person about it, though. They said, "It doesn't mean anything, just like saying 'that's so lame.'"

Which is, you know, actually insulting to people who are disabled.

Exasperated, he said, "Well what am I supposed to say, then? If I say 'that's so stupid' won't stupid people be insulted by it?"

Somehow, I managed to bite my tongue from asking him if he felt insulted by it.

But you know, I'm not perfect. In fact, I had never really thought about the phrase 'you're so lame' until someone pointed it out to me. I think most people just say these phrases without thinking. Just having the conversation can open people's eyes to their casual cruelty.

Erica,

Do you say anything to "your closest friend" when she hurts your feelings? It's insulting, but it's also insulting to your friendship that you are keeping this secret from her. She needs to be given the opportunity not to hurt you, by you telling her that her wordchoice *hurts.* If she continues after you tell her, then perhaps your friendship isn't so valued by her.

(Boy! That felt like Ann Landers/ Dear Abby/ Dan Savage! Done with that for now.)

As a gay man,I do hate people using that term to describe something that's lame. But... if they use it to describe something that's uber-gay, I don't mind.

I have busted my step-daughter for saying this phrase so many times. She's finally come around to understanding. Of course, like any 16 year old, she went completely the opposite way. I had to then bust her for saying things like:

"That's so straight!"
"That's so Christian!"

You get the picture. ;-)

@Cassandra Technically your balls are a weak point. They're internal organs outside the body cavity.

That what cups are for, like any armor.

Kernos wrote: "The one use I used to use was referring to my female employees as my Girls..."

Kernos, in one of my previous jobs as a radiation tech in a male-dominated environment, one of the managers there used "girls" and "honey" interchangeably. I let it go because he was of a different generation and such a nice guy. He used those terms with all women, regardless of age. He was a great boss who had a lot of women working for him. He treated them well, gave them opportunities and moved them through the ranks. Now that the company is more "enlightened" and wouldn't even think of referring to women by such terms, there are only a few token women in management and none in the higher level manufacturing jobs. Of course, the female "ghettoes" of marketing and human resources still exist. Some of those jobs pay well and others don't.

BloodyHorror wrote: "As a gay man,I do hate people using that term to describe something that's lame. But... if they use it to describe something that's uber-gay, I don't mind."

A horror fan? Awesome! :)

@Cassandra Technically your balls are a weak point. They're internal organs outside the body cavity.

That what cups are for, like any armor. Humans are fragile, in toto. Calling men weak because they have testicles is misandry, IMO. The implication was there, even if subliminal.

Kernos, using girl to indicate weakness in much the same way gay is used. When someone "throws like a girl"

Those are good examples. I just couldn't think of negative examples. I probably used those when I was a kid, at which time it was not a put-down for girls, but for boys. Then a girl that threw like a boy was considered a tom-boy which was a put down for the girl. How times change.

Jack wrote: "I had to then bust her for saying things like:

"That's so straight!"..."


"That's so straight" doesn't have the same impact as "that's so gay". Just like "throwing like a boy" is meaningless compared to "throwing like a girl".

One of my co-workers, a 28-year-old guy, recently told me that I "drive like a man." Is this supposed to be a compliment, or an insult?

I think part of the impact of the insult comes from the fact that women and gays are considered as "other", while males and straights are considered the "standard", so to speak.

It's very similar to Blacks and Whites. Whites are not considered a race, as such. Whiteness is the standard, while all other races are different and "other".

Looks like we're not the only ones sick of it. The Ad Council is putting out PSAs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS0GV...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_MIb3...

I really enjoyed those Ads Clancy.

After leaving High School, the amount of times hearing that phrase has dropped dramatically.

Especially with me being out with so many of my friends and family, I hardly ever hear the phrase, and let me tell you, my ears appreciate it.

I heard it all the time in elementary and middle school. I usually tried my best not to say it; my parents were very firm that gay was an okay thing to be and we were not to use homophobic language. My mom is a teacher and she doesn't allow her students to use that kind of language, either.

I heard it a lot less in high school, probably because I was in a school where we had a lot of out gay and bi students and at least one out gay teacher, and so most teachers were stricter about not saying it. Even a lot of students didn't want to say it because they had gay friends and realized it could be hurtful. Pretty much the only people I remember using it were the typical immature, raunchy boys.

I'm now in college and almost never hear it. I didn't realize this until I was on staff for a Model UN conference my college put on for high school students, and some of them were using it. It really disappointed me. I had hoped that the fact that I wasn't hearing it as much was not just because I was among an older, more mature group, but also because times had changed, at least a little.

It's interesting, though, to think about how much has changed even in my short lifetime. Living in conservative suburban Michigan, when I was in elementary or middle school just about a decade ago, the idea that homosexuality was acceptable was so rare that I didn't even feel comfortable talking about it with my friends. By high school, it was already okay enough that I had some friends who were in same-sex relationships, though it was still considered exceptional and there were a few people who made fun of them. Now, I'm in college and there's no big deal made out of it. I'm bisexual and probably a good half of my friends are some form of LGBT. It's just like, some people date men, some date women, some date both or neither. Who cares?

I love Michael Dorris' books. I am so sorry there won't be more of them... And yes, in this case, at this time it was a high compliment.

Cassandra wrote: "I guess you can buy the cup with the 30 cents more you make on every dollar, or is pointing that out misandry too?"

No, but sounds rather sarcastic. If the statistic is correct it is unfair, regardless of what 2 groups it is comparing, if the work is equal.

Julia wrote: "I love Michael Dorris' books. I am so sorry there won't be more of them... And yes, in this case, at this time it was a high compliment."

What are his books like, about? Why do you like them?

Michael Dorris's subjects were people, marriages, children, history, being an anthropologist and Indian. I like the books because there is an honesty to them, humor and grace. His books can be heartbreaking too.Michael DorrisMORNING GIRL this is a MG book...Cloud Chamber: A Novel,A Yellow Raft in Blue Water,The Broken Cord, The Crown of Columbus.

It's probably time for me to reread some of them...

I've noticed a new trend in my school. Apparently now chics can be "fags", too.
Anybody else hear this?
I don't appreciate it, towards anybody, regardless of gender, but it's just something new and disturbing I've noticed.

You mean Hiddenheart,

That at your school 'they' are calling girls "fags?"

Yeah, doesn't seem cool at all...

That really makes me angry. What if I walked up to a hetrosexual and screamed "THATS SO STRAIGHT" It's basically the same thing. "That's so gay" is something that should be kept inside of the poor little homophobes who are bitter and lonely.... :)

Yes, people have started to call chic "fags". I believe that it is highly inappropriate, not to mention vulgar.
However, it seems odd. I just can't believe that it's come down to it. I'm almost waiting for some dude to call another a "dyke".
I've tried using that's so straight, but I don't get any sort of reaction.

I suppose. Some people are vulgar and i dont believe we will be getting rid of that behavior. All we can do is be strong and fend for ourselves. Stick together. Stuff like that. Oh and whats up with this whole "god thinks we are abominations"??? Hurtful :(

As an Irish person I can say we don't use the "that's so gay" phrase that often, in fact the only people I remember using it in school were friends of mine who were bi, I did go to an all girls school though so I am sure that made a big difference... It was probably used much more frequently in the boys schools.
As for the "throwing/.../driving like a girl" thing that is said all the time and drives me bananas but I always point out to people that it's a stupid thing to say.
I think people say both to be "funny" rather than offensive, its just not that funny...

I don't think that sounds like "throwing like a girl", just sounds like you have throwing issues! I know plenty of girls who throw just fine :)

I have mixed feelings about the phrase.

I sing in a LGBT chorus and there's a lot of the guys who talk about the Divas: Madonna, Britanny, Lady Gaga ad nauseum as being 'gay icons'. It seems that Camp is assumed to be the same as 'gay': flashy, a touch tawdry, style over substance and a mockery of humanity.

I cringe just as much when I hear a gay man call this 'gay' as when I hear a straight boy calling the exact same qualities 'gay'.

Cassandra, thanks for the article! It's interesting and the end reminds me of some of the work of Ann Oakley that I've been reading recently; mainly on gender and how sex is not such a definite thing but rather a sliding scale between very female or very male.
It makes me wonder what it would be like to live in an un-gendered society, one that was populated by people as opposed to men and women. How many problems, inequalities and bias' would that solve??

One of the more famous books based on that premise is The Left Hand of Darkness

My favorite gay science fiction novel is Ethan of Athos. Ethan was born and raised on a planet of only men, when he has to leave the planet he meets these strange and bizarre humans who are not men called woman.

ps-and doesn't feel the least bit of sexual attraction to any of them.

Ohh The Left Hand of Darkness sounds really interesting, thanks for bringing it to my attention :)