Fantasy Book Club Series discussion

This is the folder for our comments and discussions associated with the second part of Steven Erikson's Deadhouse Gates. This portion of the group read and discussion covers Book Two (Chapters 6-10). Enjoy!

Things are starting to heat up now. The uprising has begun...

I just finished chapter ten. I guess I'm a bit ahead of schedule. I thought it was very interesting how a lot of our POV lines have converged together. By bringing the different pieces togethers it has streamlined the story a lot more.

I'm really liking Mappo and the Wickans. I read the big battle scene last night, but the worst part was that I had to stop in the middle so I could get some sleep. (I had to be at work in the morning. I'd already read longer than I should have.) It was hard to stop in the middle because I felt so wrapped up in the middle of it. Erikson definitly knows how to write battle scenes.

Maybe I'm stupid, but I have no idea who is fighting against who. Whose side is Duiker on? I'm just reading a lot of violent scenes with no idea of what's going on. I'm in the middle of Chapter 5. Kelisin et al have just escaped from the horrid slave camp and Duiker's trying to get a boat. Dunno why. Dunno why a high mage is attacking the inn or bar or whatever it is.

Okay, I'll take a stab at trying to clarify things for you, Sandra--And, no, you're not stupid.

A rebellion against the Malazan Empire is beginning to arise on the Seven Cities continent. The impetus for the rebellion is emanating from the Raraku Desert, and is known as "The Whirlwind".

Duiker is the Imperial Historian for the Malazan Army, and is now considered part of the 'General Staff' accompanying Fist Coltaine and the Seventh Army.

Duiker's friend, and fellow historian, Heboric, is in the Otataral Mines prison with Felisin and Baudin. Duiker has Kulp, the 7th's mage, help him in finding a boat that can go pick up Heboric and bring him back to Duiker.

The mage attack on Duiker, Stormy, Gesler, and Truth at the Coastal Guard detachment was the result of the rebellion attacking the Malazan outposts. This minor action at that small coastal town was concurrent with the uprising in Hissar that Coltaine and the 7th Army must respond to, and this is the initiation of the trek that becomes the "Chain of Dogs."

Hopefully, this helps sort some of this out for you, Sandra. Cheers!

Christopher wrote: "Okay, I'll take a stab at trying to clarify things for you, Sandra--And, no, you're not stupid.

A rebellion against the Malazan Empire is beginning to arise on the Seven Cities continent. The imp..."

Good god! How did you sort all that out? I'm mostly too appalled by the savagery and brutality to think about the bigger picture. Holy crap! I'd hate to live inside this guy's mind!

Christopher wrote: "Okay, I'll take a stab at trying to clarify things for you, Sandra--And, no, you're not stupid.

A rebellion against the Malazan Empire is beginning to arise on the Seven Cities continent. The imp..."

And wasn't it the Empress that imprisoned Heboric in the first place? So does that mean Duiker is rebelling against the Malazans, too?

Sandra aka Sleo wrote-- "Good god! How did you sort all that out?"

LOL! Believe it or not it is all there in the text. You just have to follow the threads and clues. Obviously, I am very much benefited by this being the second read for me too. ;-)

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: Good god! How did you sort all that out? I'm mostly too appalled by the savagery and brutality to think about the bigger picture. Holy crap! I'd hate to live inside this guy's mind!.."

Hey Sandra that was pretty much my reaction to reading DHG the first time! I just tried to hang on to Duiker, Coltaine, Fiddler, Crockus and Asplar to get thru this book.

As to Heboric and Duiker they were friends and Duiker even testified on Heboric's behalf at his trial. After the trial Heboric was sent to the Otataral mines and Duiker traveled to Hisser by Warren to join the Malazan 7th.

Shelley wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: Good god! How did you sort all that out? I'm mostly too appalled by the savagery and brutality to think about the bigger picture. Holy crap! I'd hate to live inside this guy'..."

Well glad I'm not the only one to be appalled. I was wondering this morning if I had the stomach to continue. Babies impaled on lances and with their skulls crushed are so horrifying to me that it makes me hesitate to continue. Why should I care about this savage and brutal world?

Not to mention men gutted and women raped and then strangled with their men's entrails

I understand but trust me Sandra this series IS SO WORTH IT, so please keep reading, it's not all as dark as DHG!!

For me after I got thru DHG it all got better and now that I'm on my third reading of DHG I'm taking it better!

All right but I sure hope you're right!

I spoke before about my having a LOVE/HATE relationship with DHG. I love Coltaine/Duiker/Fiddler/Kalam's story lines but HATED Felisin/Heboric's story line, it just HURT to read it. Now I think I am just numb to the pain in this book...

Well that would be expected

That scene with the babies and the men strangled with their women's entrails was pretty dark and disturbing! I read a lot of horror, and I don't think I've ever read anything so horrifying. LOL

Jason wrote: "That scene with the babies and the men strangled with their women's entrails was pretty dark and disturbing! I read a lot of horror, and I don't think I've ever read anything so horrifying. LOL"

And the thing is, if one stops and thinks about it, there's much, much worse in the annals of history. Think about some of the massacres that have been perpetrated upon groups of people by their conquerors.

And as this is "The Malazan Book of the Fallen Tale" which, in my humble opinion, tends to read like an epic and sweeping history. Don't you think? Yes, it is raw, painful, gritty, and feels pretty darned authentic. Cheers!

Indeed, Christopher. I think it's that which makes it so much more horrifying: the fact that it and worse has and will happen throughout human history.

Erikson is definately paying attention to the reality of that. I totally respect it, too. I love it that he does that, in fact, even though it disturbs me.

Of course there's worse in the annals of history and in the world today. No doubt about it. I'm a psychotherapist with special training in dealing with trauma victims. I've heard tales in my office that would curl your hair.

The thing that gets me is that it all seems so senseless, and also that no one seems to REACT to it. They're all numbed out, look the other way, etc. I'm continuing to wade through it in the hopes that all will be clear at some point. I'm willing to take your word for it that it's worthwhile in the end.

I'm not averse to reading books with horror in them. I've read Steven King, and many other writers who have painful horrendous stories to tell. But most of them have some rationale behind it, some glimmer of hope in the future, people with authentic emotional reactions to what happens. So far, at any rate, I'm not seeing that in what I've read of this epic so far.

Or maybe what bothers me is that I, at least, have no sense of what this world considers right and wrong, or ethical, or moral, or whatever you want to call it. The gods are worse than the humans, and in fact, seem to be directing the action. Perhaps at some point, the humans rebel? Somewhere along the way one of the gods (I can't remember who) commented that if no one believes in him he loses all his power. Is that perhaps the point? People stop believing, willy nilly, in whatever they're told and decide to stand up for themselves?

Well no sooner do I complain than heroes appear. /^\. That's supposed to be a crow. :)

Sandra aka Sleo wrote-- "The gods are worse than the humans, and in fact, seem to be directing the action."

Reminds one so much of the classical Greek and Roman mythological tales, doesn't it?

Your issue with what is considered right, wrong, moral, or ethical is, at least to me, to be somewhat expected. I think it is deliberate on Erikson's part too. He wants us to recognize that things are not always what they seem to be, and can be viewed in various shades of grey ambiguity. I would ask you though; don't you feel that most of the members of the Malazan military--from the lowly Marine grunts, to the top of the military command structure--are generally honorable and operate with integrity? I am, of course, not referring to people like Surly/Laseen or Mallick Rel. But Dujek One-arm, Fist Coltaine, Duiker, Bult, Whiskeyjack, Fiddler, Quick Ben, et al., are all pretty good folks, who do not engage in wanton massacre of civilians. There is a code of honor that seems to be pretty well held to by most members of the Malazan military machine. Again, I think this is intentional on Erikson's part--these are folks that you can root for in this 'grey' universe that he has created. Good observations, Sandra. Cheers! Chris

Christopher wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote-- "The gods are worse than the humans, and in fact, seem to be directing the action."

Reminds one so much of the classical Greek and Roman mythological tales, doesn't it?

Y..."

That's one of the things that I've noticed. The army in general seems to be trying their best to handle the situations that have been thrown upon them, either from directions of superiors (Laseen) or actions of others (rebellion, gods, et. al). Usually in books you know who the 'bad guys' and the 'good guys' are, but with the two books I've read in this series (and only part of the second so far) I'm rooting for both sides of the conflict. Then my mind rebels and tells me, but both sides can't win, can they?

Erikson and Esslemont have said many times that they were trying to turn conventional fantasy on its ear....Even the people in these books who do pretty heroic things have self doubts and do not consider themselves any type of hero.
and even some of the slimier characters have their good moments. (Except Mallick Rel-lmao) It is much more realistic after all :)

Maggie wrote: "It is much more realistic after all"

And I of course read fantasy because I want more realism? NOT :)

This is probably why I struggle so much with this series. I didn't even make it to the halfway point on my re-read of Gardens. I have two more books to read before I attempt Deadhouse Gates so I'll refrain from further comment until I bite into that one.

Maggie wrote: "Erikson and Esslemont have said many times that they were trying to turn conventional fantasy on its ear....Even the people in these books who do pretty heroic things have self doubts and do not co..."

I do not mind self doubt and flaws in heroes, or more accurately, protagonists. In fact dislike cardboard one sided good guys. That is not my issue. It's more that everything is upside down and backwards Ultimately I tend to get bored when I can't make sense of what's going on.

I would like to add that the reason the soldiers don't seem to react to the aftermath of slaughtered civilians is because their soldiers. They've probably seen things like this too many times. They are numb to it, and if you notice, they always look at the slaughtered civilians then do their best not to look at them again as they pass through whatever city it is. They also talk about things that have nothing to do with it, as though to take their minds off it.

As Christopher said, most the guys we're rooting for in the series, at least so far, do not engage in this. If they did, the series would be unreadable, imo.

Okay, now I'm a little confused:

(view spoiler)[There's a wizard attacking Bult and the soldiers he's sailing with with. Where is this wizard? In the sky? On the cliffs of the shoreline?

They then pick up Heboric, Baudin and Felisin (The latter of whom I'm really beginning to dislike!) and after a rest they head back out to sea. While sailing, they are attacked by the wizard again, but this time are pulled into a warren. They find what appears to be an abandoned boat and go to it, since their own is sinking. On board, they find that all the crew have had their heads chopped off and are somehow frozen in time.

I'm like, Dude, what the heck's going on? This is all like some twisted nightmare, which is right up my alley, but I am confused. LOL (hide spoiler)]

Before going to bed last night, while pondering over what's going on in the spoiler I posted above, I thought that this is one reason why I am really beginning to enjoy this series. Not the confusion, but for how different these books are in comparison to most other fantasy.

It's dark and gritty, sure. But it's also surreal and weird. It's very difficult to describe.

Jason wrote: "Okay, now I'm a little confused:

[spoilers removed]

Before going to bed last night, while pondering over what's going on in the spoiler I posted above, I thought that this is one reason why I..."

Yes, I know they're numbed out. I think I said that in my post about how no one reacts.

I actually thought that scene in your spoiler was interesting if truly weird. Too much weird, though, and I'm gone.

What I was trying to say is that the characters do react in their not reacting. They react by trying to ignore it because to paying too much attention to the slaughter is too disturbing and painful. Yet, these images will probably haunt the quiet hours of the rest of their lives. Providing they survive, of course. :)

Regarding my spoiler, one thing I've noticed about reading Erikson: if you're confused now, stick with it. No matter how weird it gets, you will soon understand at least a little more of what's happening.

So, I hope this happens with the boat of headless oarsmen in the warren and, more importantly, the invisible wizard who's hunting Bult, et al. lol

Jason wrote: "What I was trying to say is that the characters do react in their not reacting. They react by trying to ignore it because to paying too much attention to the slaughter is too disturbing and painful..."

I get it. I'm sticking it out, waiting for the turning point.

Yes jason, the whole headless crew in the boat gets explained...the crew of the Silanda has a lot of work to do yet!
I was a Bad moderator since it was a month ago I read this I was'nt sure what would be too spoilery too say!
We do see here a battle totally won by the 'sappers' or munitions division. Sappers in the malazan world are an especially revered lot. I think the imagination in battle of the malzans is one of their strengths
We also see the not so grateful refugees losing their servants. These nobles are just not dealing in reality are they? You can see this is going to be a problem...

and in Felisin's storyline-someinteresting things that should be noted...Now that she is free of the mines, she seems to be trying to take back some control, although she is really going about it the wrong way.
Maybe in a misplaced sense of trying to create balance, she is being very condescending to her saviors.
She tries to seduce Baudin, which doesn't really work. One thing to 'file away' is that she finds a TALON in his pack. Heboric seems to react to this, but it isnt explained quite yet.

Well she was only fifteen when she found herself in this horrible situation.

I guess the violence doesn't really bother me, I take it in the context it was given. War is bad and horrific. We hear about it at every turn in our world, and thank goodness I have never experienced it. If I did I would have to find a way to deal with it and find a way to survive. Thus it may be that I don't acknowledge it, or I file it away for revenge (like Felisin), I just hang on to something "for dear life" as the saying goes. If I don't hang on to something what is the point of living.

As far as defining what is "good" or "bad" in the world I think that the Author is trying to let us decide that. That things aren't always black and white especially when you are at the bottom of the food chain. The soldiers are just under orders to do things and are trying to get through it. I go back back to Whiskeyjack and how he handles things, he is specifically targeted by Surly/Laseen and he is just trying to stay alive honorable. That whole group is, once they are able to do it with some measure of success they breakaway from the Laseen BUT not that empire. They believe in their "country" but don't like who is running it. We do that every day here in the US.

On another note, I like Felisin or rather her story. There is alot of meat to it and it does humanize her.

Julie wrote: "On another note, I like Felisin or rather her story. There is alot of meat to it and it does humanize her."

I agree Julie-she might not be acting well, but she she is understandable...a lot of psychology to that story

Remind me again who tbs T'lan Imass are?

I liked Felisin a lot, but I almost feel as though I'm with her, Baudin and Heboric. The fact that she's turned so violently against them makes me angry at her. I can understand her anger, and at first I totally sympathized with it. But she is taking it too far. I will be interesting to see how this turns out.

Jason, I can't say I like Felisin a lot, but I definitely sympathize with her. She is, after all, just a kid and has been through hell. I think so far, Kalam is my favorite, although I like Crokus, Apsalar, and Fiddler. I kind of like the two weird ones whose names I can't remember at the moment -- the ones Maggie said she just loves upthread somewhere. The ones that saved Fiddler when his ankle was crushed.

I finished this section this afternoon.

I was gratified to see some judgment coming from Kalam: "Words can so easily glide over mayhem and terror and horror, it's a wonder trust can exist at all."

Later Duiker laments that good seems lost.

(view spoiler)[As for realism, I don't see it, as the dead rising up from beneath the ground during a battle, and later the horrible ice with bodies in it is hardly realism. (hide spoiler)] It's high fantasy, I'd say.

I'm having a struggle with the magic, sorcery, etc. It doesn't make sense to me and is hard to visualize most of the time, although there are moments of clarity.

Well, onward, as they say. :)

I thought the road under the river built by the engineers was quite clever, and then the way it sank when they were finished with it! Nice touch.

I have a little trouble understanding warrens and how they're used exactly, as well. I think I have an idea, but I suppose I won't know for sure until later.

Depending on how Felisin turns out, I suppose I can forgive her. You're right, she is young, but I don't like these dreams of blood she's having. To me, this could be some foreshadowing of her future. Not a good one, either. That mixed with the way she's acting makes me nervous.

Kalam is quickly becoming a favorite of mine. (view spoiler)[I loved how he took out the bandit soldiers who were going to do terrible things to that family. One man killing eight. I nearly cheered! If my wife wasn't sleeping beside me, I would have.LOL (hide spoiler)]

Jason wrote: "I have a little trouble understanding warrens and how they're used exactly, as well. I think I have an idea, but I suppose I won't know for sure until later.

Depending on how Felisin turns out, ..."

Ditto to all of that. Esp. Kalam being a favorite. And I have a LOT of trouble understanding the warrens, as well as most of the other magic which just seems like chaos to me.

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Remind me again who tbs T'lan Imass are?"

Remember T'ool in GOTM? He was a T'lan Imass. They are a warrior race who went through a ritual to make themselves immortal so they can keep fighting the Jaghut

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Jason, I can't say I like Felisin a lot, but I definitely sympathize with her. She is, after all, just a kid and has been through hell. I think so far, Kalam is my favorite, although I like Croku..."

I loved that battle scene too, Sandra. This particular book has a number of battles for the Chain of Dogs, as we can easily predict, and they are almost each one better than the last. I used to dislike battle scenes before I got into the Malazan series

Jason wrote: "I have a little trouble understanding warrens and how they're used exactly, as well. I think I have an idea, but I suppose I won't know for sure until later.

Depending on how Felisin turns out, ..."

I love Kalam too! Some people think his story in this book is kinda blah, but I dont think so at all. He has his own particular code of homor that he sticks to that really makes me like him no matter how sullen he is.

ok-I read up on the Silanda part, and can expound on that a little better.
The Mage that was in the storm that attacked Gesler's boat was described in their somewhere as being a mage who had lost control of their warrren. Kulp even described him as a child walking a wolf...the leash was there but now the warren is in control not the mage. He is near the Ototaral mine and they conclude it must have been an escapee from the mines. The 'storm' seems to be attracted to the boat, and so even as they get out of it to land, theyrest up on the shore because they know it is still sitting out there.

Once they finish the 'rescue' of Heboric and his mates, they head back out into it, and kulp channels his magic into an oar, not really knowing how it will turn out. They end up in a warren that no one recognizes (we will find out in a later book). The Silanda is there, along with its odd crew. They recognize the boat is the only boat allowed to trade with Drift Avili, which is a Tiste Andii settlement. Indeed, they were Tiste andii on the overpowered crew.
They theorize (correctly) that the ship must have been taken by the murdered people in the cabin, who magically spelled the crew to man the ship again before being taken over and killed themselves.
Now these people in the cabin are described as looking like Andii but grey-skinned...and there is even a reference to the supposedly extinct Tiste Edur...the descendants of the union between Mother Dark and Father light. (we know how extinction works in Malazan)

and some food for thought....If there are descendants of Mother Dark...and then Descendants of the union of Mother Dark and Father Light...well then...

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Jason, I can't say I like Felisin a lot, but I definitely sympathize with her. She is, after all, just a kid and has been through hell. I think so far, Kalam is my favorite, although I like Croku..."

Sandra, there is a passage in a later book where Hedge is trying to describe how magic and the warrens work that I think is the best way to describe it. He described it as each warren being a jug of wine with each warren representing a different aspect of magic. The user of magic must first discover which jug he can drink from (or which magic comes naturally to him) once it is discovered then you can only drink from that one jug. Keep in mind that magic is also aspected to Realms and/or races, so for example the Tiste Edur use Kurald Emurlahn (or the realm of Shadow), also remember that there is Elder magic that is different the warrens. One final part to magic to keep in mind is Otataral and its effect on magic. Otataral has a deading effect on magic and Heboric's thoughts in chapter 7 are very eye opening.

Maggie wrote: "The 'storm' seems to be attracted to the boat, and so even as they get out of it to land, they rest up on the shore because they know it is still sitting out there.

Once they finish the 'rescue' of Heboric and his mates, they head back out into it, and kulp channels his magic into an oar, not really knowing how it will turn out. They end up in a warren that no one recognizes (we will find out in a later book)."

This was the gray area that had me confused. I understand now. Thanks! This really clears it up.

It always surprises me just how much you have to pay attention to Erikson's words. He tosses so much information at you, it's easy sometimes to lose tidbits here and there.

Another important event in this section was the "Fall of Fener". The God of War was yanked to the mortal realm...this is going to have a lot of implications in the next book