SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Wow! This was a re-read for me, but there is so much stuff going on I definitely picked up a few things I missed before.
Love when Rake shifts into a dragon
Laughed hysterically that the Master Assassins kept turning into the Keystone cops anytime they got near young Crokus thanks to Oponn
The Azath...What a remarkable twist!
and the Fete! and Crimson Guards! lol-I guess I really like this book, the 2nd half anyway

Finally finished it. What a mess. I couldn't give it anything more than 3 stars. What the hell was the Azath? Where did that come from? I wouldn't call it a twist more a deus ex machina. It came from nowhere, neatly defeated the supposedly massively powerful Jaghut and was never explained.

thats what the whole journey to get the finnest was for.Finnest makes an Azath.Azaths are the physical homes of Houses. The whole journey with T'ool to get a finnest was going on for half the book

I liked it in the end. Though I think that's more for the potential of the series as a whole. This particular book really is a rather rough read, with the first half to two-thirds being a slog to get through.

Maggie wrote: "thats what the whole journey to get the finnest was for.Finnest makes an Azath.Azaths are the physical homes of Houses. The whole journey with T'ool to get a finnest was going on for half the book"

Yes but the Finnest was only mentioned right near the end, it was never explained that that is what Tool or Lorn was going for until they were there, the Finnest/Azath thing was not explained either. Maybe it was in subsequent books but not in this one.

Ala wrote: "I liked it in the end. Though I think that's more for the potential of the series as a whole. This particular book really is a rather rough read, with the first half to two-thirds being a slog to g..."

I totally agree with this assessment Ala. As having read the whole series I will say that GotM is probably the weakest. A lot of it has to do with Erikson's styleof throwing us right in the middle..it takes a while to figure out how things work, which is frustrating!

Sonuva...

there's more than one Malazan series?

A good story I suppose, but it's lost in trivia and too large a cast.

Point of view shifts are well done, adding drama, but the large cast--with shifting names--often pushed the reader out of the story.

I like maps. I like books with maps. I hate books with maps when significant parts of the story--especially the opening as here--happen off the map. (The city map wasn't necessary.)

Erikson pulls everything together at the end--well, most everything, but it didn't grip me. There were so many "main" characters that I didn't care whether any of them lived or died, especially as dying was not always final.

lol Ala- Erikson wrote Malazan Books of the Fallen, and his partner (in writing) Ian Esslemont wrote the novels of the Malazan Empire, of which 3 of 6 are published

Are they intertwined? Are the 'Empire' ones required reading?

no-they are more like side stories. Night of knives is about the night Kellanved and dancer ascended.
Return of the crimson guard is about the (obviously) Crimson Guard. Stonewielder is not out in the states but I beleive it is about the storm riders and the wall...but I am not positive on that as I havent even seen it yet

Ah, ok. So they're not integral to the main Book of the Fallen series. Just offshoots/one-offs for more depth to the world itself then?

exactly

Whew. Thanks, Maggie :)

Actually, I believe Stonewielder is supposed to set up some things for the final book, The Crippled God.

Maggie wrote: "lol Ala- Erikson wrote Malazan Books of the Fallen, and his partner (in writing) Ian Esslemont wrote the novels of the Malazan Empire, of which 3 of 6 are published"

Don't forget the prequel trilogy concerning the Tiste Edur and the sequel trilogy with, I think, Karsa. So altogether a possible 22 books.

Damnit. That's just... damnit

You can do it Ala :D

I don't know man... that's just... that's a real commitment.

Ala, Ala, do not use the C word...it is more of a friends with benefits situation...really.

I will chime in on this as I have on all similar threads...Steven Erikson is simply the defining author in the genre...his Malazan series is one of the most complex, challenging pieces of fantasy fiction ever set to paper (or virtual paper as the case may be). His expectations of the reader are exceptionally high and I suspect this may be off-putting to some. Those who consider themselves series fans of the genre, both as authors and readers should look to this serious of novels as a guide to the potential this wonderful genre has to offer and all it can aspire to be.

Hey George--Of course, I agree with you because I am simply a MAlazan nut...After reading Malazan everything else is a lot easier to read. But I have come to accept that a lot of people dont want to work quite so hard at reading! oh well...if we all thought the same there wouldn't be anything to talk about!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine is to disagree that Erikson is the defining author in the genre. That just seems to be a bit much to swallow. I liked Gardens of the Moon well enough to finish it. There are some brilliant ideas in there that made me want to continue reading the book. I also had coworkers tell me the subsequent books are more coherent from a storytelling perspective. Nevertheless, the criticisms of the book are well founded. It really has nothing to do with making the reader work hard, which is frankly silly. I think it has more to do with the the fact that Erikson, in this first book, maybe didn't have the skills to tell the story as fluidly as he could have or wanted to. I don't know, again that's my opinion having read the first book.

Oh but Roger I totally agree with your assessment. These are all valid issues with this book...I was speaking of the series as a whole. As for my remark about making the reader work, that is just a reason I personally like the series but others do not.

I finally finished the book and I was very satisfied. I don't disagree with a lot of the criticisms, but I feel that the positives more than outweigh them. The characters and the world-building were wonderful. The characters have real depth while at the same time there is enough mystery about each of them that you don't want to get too comfortable with your feelings or impressions. I also found the pacing very interesting, as a lot of what happens in the first two-thirds of the book is heavy on exposition, but in the last third of the book, not only does the action pick up, but the perspective switches more rapidly between the various sets of characters making it seem even faster.

After spending such a long time building this world in the first part of the book, it only took a few dropped hints about activities going on in other parts of the world to build anticipation for what the rest of the series would explore without making this story feel unfinished.

I have plenty of books on my TBR pile, but I'm definitely interested in adding the rest of this series into the mix.

Last day and all, just wanted to say Thanks to Maggie for running this discussion this month.

You did a great job :)

Thanks Ala :)

I joined this group just so I could comment on this discussion.

All I can say is that The Malazan Book of the Fallen series elevates the fantasy genre into true literature. I've read all 10 books plus the first two Esslemont Malazan books, and I can say that the plotlines of the series are far less important than what Erikson has to say about humanity, and to be quite honest, everyone should pay attention. The man spent a good portion of his life as a working archaeologist. His viewpoint on history is a little more inclusive than the average person's.

The Malazan series is fantasy fiction for grown-ups. I feel like the bookstore owner at the beginning of that movie "The Neverending Story." Most other books are safe books. The Malazan books are dangerous.

Some here have suggested that Erikson might not have had the skills necessary to the tell the story in The Gardens of the Moon as plainly and coherently as he might have liked to. Having read some of his essays on writing, I can tell you that notion is a crock of tripe. Erikson has stated that he can't stand it when an author has two characters get together and rehash things they both already know so the audience can get all the background information. That just isn't realistic. All of the Malazan books should be viewed through this lens.

Some of you have said that the book suffers from a cast of characters that is too large. I think it is no spoiler to tell you that the entire series covers events that span over 300,000 years of history in Erikson's world. Erikson is no fool. A thorough recounting of an event on an even narrow scale is going to include the contributions of a very large number of people. Erikson's cast of characters for the entire series is mammoth, and that is appropriate.

Here is the reason I say The Malazan Book of the Fallen is fantasy for grownups. To truly appreciate this series, you must allow yourself no whining. No complaining that it's too hard to remember stuff or you don't know what's going on. You use the tools that he provides you. You use the cast of characters at the beginning and the appendicies at the end. When you encounter a word you haven't seen before, understand that Erikson has purposely not given you background information about that word, and he expects you to learn what you need to know about that word from context. This means that you can't read his books with a sleeping mind. You can't skim. You have to be alert. You have to form connections. You have to accept that you aren't going to know and understand everything - just like a true study of history and archaeology. You have to be an adult.

There's a reason that Erikson requires this level of involvement from his readers. It forces you to pay attention to detail, and that brings you further into the world. If you're willing to put in the work, you will be amazed at the complexity, beauty, sadness, and hope that is Erikson's story. This series will broaden your understanding of human nature, human motivations, and human history.

You should be warned. If you read this series, it will be harder to appreciate simpler, more straight-forward fiction, even books written by Martin, Abercrombie or Rothfuss. You will become frustrated and bored with books that hand you everything you need to know on a silver platter. You will seek out more challenging writing. You will crave more intelligent commentary. You will hunger for more realistic characters. You will begin to suspect the old notion that literature improves one's mind might actually be true.

These books are dangerous.

Look, I get that it's good. That it takes some work to get into. That it's long.

I get all that.

But, really, that's laying it on a bit thick :P

Read the series, and then tell me if you think it's laying it on a bit thick.

Plus, we English majors are allowed a bit of leeway since no one will ever pay us to do anything useful.

;)

Oh no, an english major.

GET THE TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS!

;)

I plan on getting to the rest of the series at some point, just have to fit them in with the rest of the books I'm reading.

Also, I'm lazy, and working for a good read sounds so tiring :P

After the second book, it won't feel like work anymore.

Also, who complains that a book or a series is too long anymore? It's not the destination that's important, but the journey. And at 3.5 million words, Erikson's series is one long, beautiful journey.

:)

When I read a series, I like to read it straight through. But this one will require a time investment that I can't give it right now.

Sooooo, it's on hold until after some others are done with.

I agree with you Stan-I think reading this series has elevated HOW I read Fantasy

I also agree that the massive scope of what he was trying to show required the huge geography and huge cast to make it realistic.

I love, love, love this series. Ala will vouch for that as he likes to tell me to shut up about Erikson already...lol But then, I am an English Major as well, and we tend to love new adventures in readerdom, and having the way we read elevated.

Unfortunately, a lot of people consider it too much work! and I guess I understand that too. I have days where I just want to be entertained, or just read something simple. and Malazan doesnt work for that.

But for me there is no comparison, so Ala will just have to put up with hearing about Erikson I guess :)

Finished the book, some concepts I liked - the warrens, races, history, and some concepts like a world inside a sword, a feel at times similar to the one when playing planescape torment( a very old rpg game that feels more like a book actually).
Bad things are that characters and especially their interactions struck me as hollow and superficial, most of the whiskey jack party stuff was plain boring, and some characters were even irritating ( paran).

I did it!!! I got to be honest, although the story picked up around the half way mark, I don't see my self continuing the series.

I like SOME of the characters, SOME of the language, but overall it was so inconsistent. If it's possible, there was too much disparate action at the end? I never did get a true hang of the magic system. It is a shame because I generally love epic fantasy.

I'm still undecided, if I should continue or not, everyone says it gets better and I do like epic fantasy. However, the author didn’t make this decision easy with that first book! There really are a lot of faults… but also some promising things, like the Gods meddling or all these different peoples! What to do?

I gave up the first time I tried reading it, and on the second go didn't really start enjoying it until halfway. I agree it has its flaws but I'm impressed enough by the scope that I want to finish the series. I'm just not in a hurry.

I just finished today. It took me forever. It looks like we all pretty much agree about this book. :)

It sounds like the consensus among fans is that the series gets better. I added the next book, but I probably won't get to it any time soon.

I bailed at 64%. I don't like the writing and the world building and character development leave something to be desired. I haven't cared enough to pick it back up and I'm not going to waste 5 more hours of my time by forcing myself.

I have to disagree with Maggie's comment about the people who don't enjoy it not wanting to work hard. I've read some very difficult books and I find that working hard actually leads me to feeling much more fulfilled at the end of a book, a phenomenon that is jokingly being called Literary Stockholm Syndrome. This just did not pull me in.

If you didn't like it by 64% I doubt you'd like it by the end. I had started liking it by 64% and the remaining 36% was not substantially different.

Yeah, while this book made me work, I don't feel I was rewarded in any way for doing so. It was just annoying. I felt rewarded in the end because I thought the book had gotten good by then, but the tiresome first half didn't contribute to that.

I got semi-interested about 40% in and I got my hopes up. I really wanted to enjoy it. I was curious what was going to happen to the Tattersail puppet.

The raven-killing puppet died. It was gloriously torn apart by hell hounds!

For all its faults there was some very cool imagery in this book.

Ryan wrote: "For all its faults there was some very cool imagery in this book."

Yes, which is why I kept reading. I liked a lot of the chapter openers.

I like something difficult, awkward, challenging, and even downright mystifying. Sounds like a series for me. Thanks for all the opinions.

Raymond wrote: "I like something difficult, awkward, challenging, and even downright mystifying. Sounds like a series for me. Thanks for all the opinions."

It might be. Erickson creates a fantasy universe with some very rich and complex worldbuilding, then dumps you in the deep end with only limited explanation.

On the other hand, I see you and I both two-starred The Shadow of the Torturer, a book that I felt sort of did the same thing. I liked Gardens of the Moon because it at least came together by the end, and I started caring about the characters by the end in this case.

I really tried to like it but knew I had to put it down when I started approaching it with a feeling of dread. Whether I listened to it or read it, I just couldn't bring myself to care about the characters or the story line. Quite simply, after about 25% of the book, when asked what it was about, all I could think to say was magic and fighting. Nothing more stuck than that. Sad because I hate giving up on a book.

Yeah, the first 25% was rough. It took me nine days to read that much, and I had to force myself to keep going. For comparison, I read the last 40% of the book in just four days.

yeah, I totally didnt even get what was going on until the last third or so of the book. I probably didnt even start liking it until the Fete. But when the three main storylines all converged? I was mesmerized.
That being said, this is probably my least favorite book of the series, #2 and 3 being my favorites.

I think I’m convinced and will at least try the 2nd book!