The History Book Club discussion

This is a buddy read set up by request.

BY Tom Holland

Start Date will be May 09, 2011 (or some time during that week) and ending on June 05, 2011. We always start on Mondays so this will work out well. If anyone needs more time; the threads will be open to accomodate.

Remember this is a spoiler thread and anything can be discussed in any order unless you determine how you will read this book and your timeline for discussion of different chapters. We allow each buddy read leader to set things up at their own pace.

Remember, if you cite any other book except for the discussion book for which this thread is named you must do full citations of both the book and the authors.

Good luck and have fun.

Bentley

BY Tom Holland

I've got my book so I'll be here as will be Terri, anyone else want to join us?

Yes, does anyone else want to join us? The more the merrier. It should be a great discussion stirrer.

Luckily, I own this particular book and don't have to worry about getting it in time for the start date.

I will market the May 9th date as the start date and by then I am certain that other folks may join you. Other folks need time to acquire the book and this will give them that opportunity.

Bentley

The book has two titles:



The Forge of Christendom: The End of Days and the Epic Rise of the West

Millennium: The End of the World and the Forging of Christendom

by
Tom Holland

I liked Tom Holland's other books 'Persian Fire' and 'Rubicon' so I will try to join you. This one looks good too. Ordering a copy now.

& by Tom Holland

Tom wrote: "The book has two titles:


"

I noticed that yesterday too, Tom. I have never seen The Forge title and I am wondering if that is only a U.S title? My copy is Millenium.

About the Book;
Of all the civilisations existing in the year 1000, that of Western Europe seemed the unlikeliest candidate for future greatness. Compared to the glittering empires of Byzantium or Islam, the splintered kingdoms on the edge of the Atlantic appeared impoverished, fearful and backward. But the anarchy of these years proved to be, not the portents of the end of the world, as many Christians had dreaded, but rather the birthpangs of a radically new order. MILLENNIUM is a stunning panoramic account of the two centuries on either side of the apocalyptic year 1000. This was the age of Canute, William the Conqueror and Pope Gregory VII, of Vikings, monks and serfs, of the earliest castles and the invention of knighthood, and of the primal conflict between church and state. The story of how the distinctive culture of Europe - restless, creative and dynamic - was forged from out of the convulsions of these extraordinary times is as fascinating and as momentous as any in history.

About the author;
An acclaimed British author. He has written many books, both fiction and non-fiction, on many subjects from vampires to history.

Holland was born near Oxford and brought up in the village of Broadchalke near Salisbury, England. He obtained a double first in English and Latin at Queens' College, Cambridge, and afterwards studied shortly for a PhD at Oxford, taking Lord Byron as his subject, before interrupting the post graduate studies and moving to London.

He has adapted Herodotus, Homer, Thucydides and Virgil for BBC Radio 4. His novels, including Attis and Deliver Us From Evil, mostly have a supernatural and horror element as well as being set in the past. He is also the author of three highly praised works of history, Rubicon, Persian Fire and Millennium.

He lives in London with his wife and two daughters

For more info on Tom Holland and his books here is the Tom Holland website;
http://www.tom-holland.org/

SPOILERS

Always Chapter/page mark and spoiler alert your posts if you are discussing parts of the book.

To do these spoilers, follows these easy steps;

Step 1. enclose the word spoiler in forward and back arrows; < >

Step 2. write your spoiler comments in

Step 3. enclose the word /spoiler in arrows as above, BUT NOTE the forward slash in front of the word. You must put that forward slash in.

Your spoiler should appear like this;
(view spoiler)[the butler did it (hide spoiler)]

And please mark your spoiler clearly like this;

State a Chapter and page if you can.
EG: Chapter 24, page 154

Or say Up to Chapter *___ (*insert chapter number) if your comment is more broad and not from a single chapter.

Examples of spoiler;
Chapter 24 pg 36
(view spoiler)[the butler did it (hide spoiler)]

I've just orderd a copy from my local libraty. Should have it by the end of this week.
This will be the first time I join in on any History Book Club discussion. So if I do anything wrong, please tell me. I am really looking forward to reading the book and discussing it.

Hi Tessa,

I will look forward to chatting with you about the book as we both read it. Just remember to try and use the spoiler function (message 9 above) so if your ahead of others you don't give too much away :)

Otherwise just post any comments of thoughts you have on the book as you read it, it should be fun.

I just downloaded this book and I'm going to start reading sometime this week.

Great Simon..we look forward to your joining us.

Hi Simon, good to hear, be warned that some people reckon it may take a little bit to get into it but it's worth persevere with as the author tends to write a pretty good history.

Anyone else start this one yet? I was between book so I started the end of last week.

I have started it as well Tom, how are you finding it so far? have you read any other of Tom Holland's books?

I am liking it well enough, some interesting bits to it, getting into it. One annoyance about the beginning that I will post something on in a bit. Its early yet but it Seems like it might be a good lead-in for the "A Distant Mirror" read coming up, I found myself thinking about that book some.

I read "Persian Fire" and "Rubicon" and liked them both.

&

by Barbara W. Tuchman.

I think you'll find that "Millennium" will be a good lead-in for "A Distant Mirror". Like you I enjoyed Tom Holland's earlier books as well.

by Tom Holland

by Barbara W. Tuchman

Here are a few interesting or fun quotes from the book so far:

Chapter - 'Return of the King', page 2:

(view spoiler)["...Other Christians arrested in the capital were dressed in animal skins and torn to pieces by dogs, or else set on fire to serve the imperial gardens as torches." - Geez, who thinks this things up! (hide spoiler)]

Chapter - The Old Order Changeth', page 55:

(view spoiler)["The Hungarians, responding to provocation just as the Wends had done, dispatched a raiding party to pillage Saxony: it too was cornered, confronted and wiped out. Once again, it was the heavy cavalry, singing to the Almighty as they rode, who led the slaughter." (hide spoiler)]

Chapter - The Old Order Changeth', page 60:

I liked this quote: "Be a lion in battle, but like a lamb when taking vengeance!"

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here are a few interesting or fun quotes from the book so far:

Chapter - 'Return of the King', page 2:
..."
(view spoiler)[
Thanks, Thinking of dogs I think I missed the torches.
(hide spoiler)]

good quote.

Chapter - 'Return of the King'

something to keep in mind while reading

maybe a spoiler.
(view spoiler)[
The first chapter jumps through time a little too quickly. I found it odd and a little annoyed that the plague was not mentioned in the beginning of the book, even though it goes back to the founding of Constantinople. Why not just start with Charlemagne if skipping over stuff like this.

The Plague of Justinian (541–542)
Returning in smaller waves through 750
40% Constantinople inhabitants were killed
est. 25 million people dead.
--
How many people turned to Christianity during this?
What happened to the populations? I have read as high as European loss of 50%. Even the effects of losing a third of the population would have been devastating.

(hide spoiler)]

There it is 'a smell of death' page 63.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
post 220
Thanks André

I am not going to read that the same again.

Chapter - The Old Order Changeth', page 102:
(view spoiler)[
'carzimasia':....
Took me a few minutes before I could read the next paragraph, I tried. Not a pleasant thought.

Nice line...
Exclusivity, then as now, was the mark of a luxury brand.
(hide spoiler)]

Good comments there Tom and interesting question on the plague. What did you think of this account of Otto meeting the Hungarian hordes on the Lech?

Chapter - The Old Order Changeth', page 65:

(view spoiler)[“…..Wheeling his horse round to face the enemy, he reached for the Holy Lance; and then, answering the harsh ululations of the Hungarians with a proud war cry of his own, he led the charge. Behind and all around him, the hoofs of their great warhorses making the field of the Lech to shake, there galloped his cavalry, the loricate, the men of iron: a strike force of killers long forged for such a moment. Although their numbers were sorely diminished even from the host that had left camp at dawn, there was to be no withstanding Otto’s warriors that day. With a surging crash, the steel-armoured tide flooded over the hordes of the enemy, hacking and spearing and trampling them down; for against the loricate, trapped at close quarters, the unarmoured Hungarians found themselves defenceless.” (hide spoiler)]

Paints a great picture of a armoured cavalry charge doesn't it?

Is is good. A nice contrast to earlier..
Chapter - 'Return of the King' pp 42-43
(view spoiler)[Against foes as these, clouds of monstrous hornets, possesed of such speed as to seem barely human and the devilish ability to fire arrows even while on the gallop, resistance seemed futile. Not untiol the earth split open, the invaders are reported to have boasted, would they ever be brought to defeat... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter - ... Yeilding Place to New, page 147:
(view spoiler)[
Some of the descriptions of peasants in this chapter were nice.

"No peasant could afford to dress himself in chain mail, still less maintain a warhorse. Even an arowhead might prove beyond his means. No wonder that finding a horseshoe was held the supreme mark of good luck."

- never thought of why horseshoe were lucky

(hide spoiler)]

I've started the book too. It's my first time in one of these discussion groups. Hope I can keep up, as it's a busy time for me. Is there a reading schedule (e.g., number of pages per week)?

Hi Brian, good to see you join the buddy read and there is no set reading schedule, you read at your own pace, that's why we are using the spoiler function so if someone is ahead of the others they don't give too much of the story away. Join in anytime your ready.

Tom wrote: "Chapter - ... Yeilding Place to New, page 147:
[spoilers removed]"

Good point Tom, always wondered why finding a horse shoe was considered lucky!

Notice some of the chapter and section titles..

everybody wants to rule the world
an inconvenient truth
just say no

Maybe a little tongue in cheek. I can't remember any others and i don't have the book in front of me.

Hi Tom, I think you may find whole sections of the book written a bit tongue-in-cheek but it makes for good reading :)

I also enjoyed this description of the Byzantium Emperor, Nicephorus, on page 73 of Chapter - The Old Order Changeth:

(view spoiler)["It was no coincidence that the most proficient of their warrior emperors, the aptly named Nicephorus, or 'Victory Bearer', should also have been the most widely hated. A battle-hardened ascetic from the empire's eastern front, capable of drilling a pike through the front of an armoured enemy and out the other side, and with the appearance, so it was reported, of a wildly bristling pig, he had paraded a hair-shirted distaste for the sensibilities of the metropolis." (hide spoiler)]

I enjoyed this exchange between William, the Duke of Aquitaine, and the monks of his realm when they suggested the best place for him to found an abbey would be on his favourite hunting ground. Chapter; ‘Yielding Place to New', pages 160-161:

(view spoiler)[”Any reluctance that William might have felt at the prospect of forfeiting such a prize had been sternly overridden. ‘For you know which will serve you better before God: the baying of hounds or the prayers of monks.’ To that, there had been no possible comeback…” (hide spoiler)]

Thanks Aussie Rick for leading the way. I have just started this book. And so far so good.

It's a pretty decent read overall Bentley, I'm sure you are going to enjoy it.

I hope so - starting to read it while traveling.

I loved this section from the book, ‘Yielding Place to New', page 170:


(view spoiler)["...'May he render up his bowels into the latrine': such was the venerable curse. Filth, indeed, was the natural condition of all oath-breakers: for it was well known that, at the very moment of his death, an excommunicant's flesh would start to reek terribly of excrement, so that consecrated ground would refuse to receive his corpse, but would instead vomit it up in a furious spasm, to serve as food for wild beasts. What greater contrast with the relics of the saints, fragrant still within their bejewelled reliquaries, could possible have been imagined?" (hide spoiler)]

I also found this section of the book interesting as well, chapter 'Go West', page 179:

(view spoiler)["Though Thietmar was proudly chauvinist, and had a contempt for the Poles, in particular, that knew few bounds, even he could not help but admire the robust manner in which their leaders 'keep the populace in line, much as one would a stubborn ass'. Wistfully, he reflected on how a Polish bishop might encourage his flock to keep a fast by the simple expedient of punching out the teeth of anyone who broke it. Other moral standards were upheld in an even more no-nonsense way. A convicted prostitute, so Thietmar reported approvingly, was liable to have her genitals sliced off and hung from her doorpost; while a rapist, nailed by his scrotum to a bridge, would then, 'after a sharp knife has been placed next to him', be confronted with the unpleasant options of self-castration or suicide. Food for thought indeed. 'For though such customs are undoubtedly harsh,' pronounced Thietmar sternly, 'yet they are not without their positive side'." (hide spoiler)]

Doesn’t this paint a funny image, page 199 from chapter; ‘Go West’:

(view spoiler)[”The terrible assaults of the previous century, which had seen entire kingdoms appropriated by Viking warlords and parcelled out among their followers, had left the eastern countries densely planted with settlers. Several generations on, and the descendants of these immigrants might still affect a distinctive look: the men, for instance, had a taste for eye-liner, and for shaving the backs of their heads. Most scandalous, to pious English eyes, was their habit of taking a bath every Saturday: a mark of effeminacy held all the more suprising in a people so notorious for the bestial savagery. Nevertheless, there were many natives, jealous of the success with women for which the Northmen had become famed, who were not above adopting some of their more dandyish habits themselves; and integration, with Englishmen and Scandinavians pooling make-up and hair-styling tips, had long been gathering pace.” (hide spoiler)]

Sort of spoils the image of a fierce Northern warrior :)

Eyeliner...you must be kidding.

Captain Jack Sparrow seems to have a likening for it as well :)

Different strokes for different folks (smile)

The book seems to have its ups and downs. However I did enjoy this bit from the chapter; 'Apocalypse Postponed', page 226:

(view spoiler)["Christian chroniclers, in horror at the humiliation visited upon Santiago, would subsequently claim that the invaders had been struck down by diarrhoea, a godly punishment indeed, and had perished amid the effluvia of their own bowels - but this was mere wishful thinking. Entering Cordoba, the warriors of the caliphate did so unperturbed by stomach upsets." (hide spoiler)]

I enjoyed this exchange between Harold Godwinsson and his brother Tostig on page 313, chapter; ‘1066 and All That’:

(view spoiler)[”Shortly before Harald Hardrada made his last stand, it was said, a party of horsemen had ridden out fro the English lines and crossed to where the Norwegians stood facing them, lined up in a shield wall. One of the embassy, calling to Tostig, passed on a greeting from his brother, King Harold, and an offer: ‘one-third of all the kingdom.’ Tostig, shouting back, demanded to know what his ally, King Harald Hardrada, might expect. ‘And the rider said, “King Harold has already declared how much of England he is prepared to grant the Norwegian: seven feet of earth, or as much as he needs to be buried, bearing in mind that he is taller than other men”.” (hide spoiler)]

I have begun in earnest and have completed the Preface:

(view spoiler)[I have to say that I will keep plugging through but the Preface did not impress me much. However I saw your comments that it takes a while to catch hold and then you are into the story. There are quite a few good books that have a slow beginning so I will develop a wait and see attitude. (hide spoiler)]

Brian wrote: "I've started the book too. It's my first time in one of these discussion groups. Hope I can keep up, as it's a busy time for me. Is there a reading schedule (e.g., number of pages per week)?"

Brian, these are our informal one thread reads so most do not have a formal syllabus like our other multi-thread reads. You must use the spoiler goodreads feature explained in message 9 by Terri. I think your post got lost in a bunch of others posted by Aussie Rick. We always state what the spoiler is about first (the section, chapter, page number if available first) and then we place the spoiler in the brackets to not spoil the book for other readers who are just starting out or in various stages of reading the book. This is a one month buddy read where you can go along at your own pace. We will always answer you and sorry for the delay.

The book does pick up Bentley so I am sure you'll start enjoying it soon.

I did reply to Brian (#28) and told him not to worry about any formal process as such so hopefully he will join us soon to dicuss aspects of the book.

I enjoyed the author's description of the Battle of Hastings on pages 322 to 325 and the final description of the battlefield on page 325:

(view spoiler)["Come the morning, however, and daylight unveiled a spectacle of carnage so appalling that even the victors were moved to pity. 'Far and wide the earth was covered with the flower of the English nobility and youth, drenched in gore.' So hacked about was Harold's own body, and so disfigured the face, that it could barely be recognised." (hide spoiler)]

Thanks Aussie Rick. I certainly hopes it picks up.

Preface:

(view spoiler)[The preface seems like a stream of consciousness style of writing. (hide spoiler)]

But I will slog on.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I enjoyed this exchange between Harold Godwinsson and his brother Tostig on page 313, chapter; ‘1066 and All That’:

[spoilers removed]"

Good one! I enjoyed it too.
I also liked a few others that you posted.

Sorry I have been too busy to contribute, the past week.

This section was nice..
'1066 and All That' pp 299

(view spoiler)[ For months, the armies of rival brothers had faced one anpther across the raging torrents of the Dnieper. The yonger, Yaroslav, was nicknamed 'the Lame': and his enemied, screaming abuse from the far bank above the howling of the steppeland gales, had jeered at him as a cripple. But then with the comming of winter, the river had begun to freeze over, and Yaroslav, lame or not, had succeeded in leading his forces across the thinkening floes. Trapping his enemies, he had driven them backwards on to thin ice and their doom. (hide spoiler)]