MHS AP English discussion

Be sure you read and consider the poem from which the book takes its name...what does it mean that the center will not hold? Just what IS that rough beast?

From the start of the book i realize that the main character Okonkwo is a man of action who due to his father's past is unwilling to have offspring that are lazy. He wants titles since it's a sign of respect. The tribe that Okonkwo is part of is male dominated society. Time period i would estimate it to be maybe early 1500's before europeans started to going to Africa.

My opinion on the center will not hold is that when your surroundings start to fall or crumble, over time the center which is can be described as a gate can't stand by itself when everything else around it has fallen.

Comment posted by Andy

I think the poem is referring to the sharp changes that will occur in the book, in both the main character's life and the African society. All I can think about is how tribal the setting is, and I'm assuming that in this time period, the rest of the world is changing. The polygamy really shows that the Africans live in a whole different world since I'm pretty sure it's frowned upon everywhere else. So perhaps, things seem to fall apart because of the influence of the rising Western culture.

There are major character developments in the first third of the book which probably shapes the direction of the story. Okonkwo is a strong man who's greatest fear "lay deep within himself." (13)He fears of resembling his father which dictates his life. His inability to express any sort of kindness, affection gentleness, or understanding puts a great strain on his relationships. His fear is so great that he would break the sacred laws to show that he is not weak (beating his wife during the week of peace.) More disturbingly, he killed his "son" to show that he in fact, was very strong, despite the lack of doubts that he was. Although his strength and prosperity is admired, it is his downfall. Everyone suffers, including him.

I think that the poem is hinting at what will happen later in the novel. "the falcon can not her the falconer" being the important line here. I think it means that something bad will happen to Okonkwo, and he doesn't know it yet.
Also, I think Okonkwo's character development is interesting. He strives to be everything his father is not, and it really shows throughout the novel.

I agree with Xuan's ideas about Okonkwo's issues with the shameful legacy of his father. However, these issues can be viewed on a much wider scale than just Okonkwo's phobia of repeating his family history. Okonkwo struggles with what it means to be a man, and to be strong. He dedicates his life to achieving the masculine ideal set forth by the tribe, and it completely dictates his personality. Okonkwo goes against what seems to be his true nature in favor of this ideal he longs for, becoming violent and outwardly cold-hearted (even almost shooting his wife and participating in the ritual sacrifice of his adopted son.) This is not so different from the way young boys look up to masculine idols like Arnold Schwarzenegger, and take steroids or work out too much to conform. Thus, you can look at Okonkwo in the context of how men are pressured (today and then, in both the West and Africa) to fit into a very narrow definition of masculinity that does not take into account how balanced humans are naturally.
You can also see it in a more general way as Achebe commenting on how our society shapes us, and what it means to either consciously fit or not fit into the mold. Okonkwo's father rebelled against the norm, while Okonkwo himself painstakingly follows it, at his own emotional expense. Clearly, Achebe casts a negative glance at Okonkwo's choices, often making it a big deal to point out that although Okonkwo actually likes so-and-so, he treats them terribly or coldly, all in the name of societal expectations.
I think this is where the poem comes in - "mere anarchy" sets in when we go against the plan society has made for us, we create a "wild gyre" that complicates our once-monotonous existence (highlighted by the rituals and ceremonies and wise old sayings), not heeding our betters ("falconers") and ultimately destroying the norm, the expectations, the "center."

So far, the plot's development is extremely effective at attention-grabbing. Achebe does not skimp on the details when he explores the minds of the characters, especially Okonkwo. The focus on Okonkwo from his past to the present that is presented in the book really depicts a clean picture of why Okonkwo is who he is and why he thinks and acts the way he does. His fear of failure, and never-ending hate of his past is only natural in the setting he's from. It's ancient tribal Africa where only the stronger prosper and survive and the weak are eliminated.

I agree with Sarah's and Xuan's opinions about Okonkwo as well. His life is dictated by his paranoia of becoming his father, and because of that, he goes as far as attacking his own wife during a ceremonial time of peace and killing Ikemefuna when he was told specifically not to by the village elders because he feared being viewed as weak.

As for the poem, "The Second Coming" by W.B. Yeats, Okonkwo's own fear that dictates his life is the "turning and turning in the widening gyre". How I see it is that ever since Okonkwo has set his life on only being viewed as strong, he has met success, undoubtedly, but has also begun on his voyage into a maelstrom (or gyre) that only widens so that he can only turn and turn more towards the center. My justification to this belief would be that his inability to be viewed as weak allowed him to disobey his elders and kill Ikemefuna and beat his wife, Ojiugo, during the Week of Peace, desecrating two of the critical traditions of their tribe. Okonkwo is also "the falcon [that] cannot hear the falconer". His paranoia, again, clouds his judgement, where his judgement is his "falconer" that is lost in rage and fear. When a falcon loses its falconer, "things fall apart" and no matter how hard it tries, "the center cannot hold;" the center being sanity. For Okonkwo, his center revolved around being strong yet weak inside; losing his center means becoming weak inside and out. When all is lost, "mere anarchy is loosed upon the world," where everything is lost and nothing is right anymore.

I agree with Stanley that Okonkwo is weak on the inside. Okonkwo spends all of his time and energy focusing on how to be strong and how to be successful. And clearly his reputation as the strong man in his tribe is more important to him than his family. What is important to him is not becoming anything remotely close to his father, which eats him alive. In my opinion, Achebe portrays Okonkwo as sort of the "bad" guy in this case. His intentions to not become like his father are not enough to justify his hostile actions towards his own kin. What especially bothered me was when he murdered Ikemefuna, who was like a son to him and how easy it was for him to do such a thing. Again, his motive was the fear of being viewed as weak, which was not enough to convince me that his action was okay.


In the poem, I believe that the line, "the centre cannot hold" refers to the tribe, in the sense that they are the center of Okonkwo's existence, but that center is not a stable or reliable as it may seem.

The novel portrays Okonkwo as this masculine, revered leader of Umuofia clan. He is consumed by his obsession to progress and appear strong in the face of his clan. Okonkwo is also fueled by his hatred for his father, whom he considers to be a lazy, inept failure and strives to be everything he is not. This strong dislike is highlighted through his impulsive behavior. He seems to embody the characteristics of a tragic hero. He possesses the noble stature, being his rank and leadership in the clan, but also has tragic flaws, being his fear of becoming like his father, and his constant need to show masculinity to his tribe. This was exhibited through his deceiving and killing/ sacrificing of Ikemefuna, as well as his beating of his wife. Okonkwo did this because he didn’t want to appear weak, which leads me to conclude that he would be willing to do anything to appear dominant.

The poem has a sense of ambiguity, especially with Yeats’ usage of the word “things”. This can open the open up to many different interpretations. These “things” maybe be the Umuofia clan, which, under Okonkwo’s leadership and his impulse, may “fall apart”. This could be a reference to the failure of the tribal system under his leadership and his adherence to the Oracle. Okonkwo follows all that is prophesized by the Oracle, and the aforementioned tragic flaws may also contribute to the downfall of the tribal system, and the fact that “the center cannot hold”. With Okonkwo being the leader and thus, “center”, these flaws may lead to the demise of the clan, and the emergence of “anarchy” and chaos. Like Stanley said, Okonkwo is the “falcon that cannot hear the falconer”. Okonkwo is the falcon. His constant endeavors to appear strong will cause him to lose sight of what is best for his tribe, and ultimately lead to its demise.

I for one have noticed that Achebe's style of storytelling is rather rustic and old-fashioned throughout the beginning of Things Fall Apart.His use of the African tribal dialect and proverbs helps to ensnare the reader's mind, and paint a yet more vivid image of the native Africa, invoking a primal scene of existence which can resonate even with the most modern of readers. The structure of the novel as a series of vignettes greatly helps to develop it's realism, ignoring the common writing style among fiction novels of events simply snowballing out of control once a central plot point has occurred.

I'd also like to talk a bit about the design of the book's cover (an old habit from English 10H). An effigy of an African man's head/mask hangs upside-down against a creme-colored background which takes up the upper half of the book, while the lower half of the book is a bright red.The red could be a precursor to the powerful imagery in the book (red is a naturally eye-catching color, often symbolic of power or used to command attention), the color of a patch of earth enriched by clay (Note, that throughout the novel, Achebe generally describes the soil as red, rather than brown). The upside-down mask/head could symbolize the metaphorical mask (Persona) that people wear in order to interact with society and fulfill the expectations that others place upon them(Or in Okonkwo's case,that he places upon himself).The fact that the mask is abstract hearkens back to African tribal masks (which come into play during the book, symbolizing possession and even play a rather large part in Ibo culture(the the ethnic group to which Okonkwo belongs) in a series of practices collectively known as Mmwanu), which is subtly reinforced by the lettering of the title, a simple scratching in the earth as though someone were writing with their finger, allowing the author to create powerful imagery without needing the reader to peruse the contents of his novel. The fact that it lies upside down and touching the ground (as if discarded) could foreshadow Okonwko's growth as a character, finally throwing away his macho-man facade and coming to terms with his own identity.What event may prompt Okonkwo to change his ways I cannot say (as serious events such as the ritualistic murder of his beloved adopted son by his own hands have proven a crack in his armor , seen when he begins drinking heavily, neglecting to sleep, and overindulging in snuff) but if I had to guess, I would predict that the beginning of European conquest into tribal Africa disturbs the society to which Okonkwo clings to for his strength and ideals, forcing Okonkwo to adapt to the new environment or perish in the process.

Now, I'd like to discuss Okonkwo's childhood, as it seems to be the major source of his motivation (his hatred for his father and Atychiphobia (fear of failure) as Sarah and Xuan have already mentioned).Okonkwo may complain about his childhood (and justifiably so), but I would argue that his father would have been moreso haunted by the fact that he cannot provide for his wives or children, and knowing that he has become a burden to them, rather than a force for the betterment of their lives (essentially being told that the only way he knows how to live his life isn't good enough). I would even go so far as to argue (Contrary to Okonkwo's opinion) that his father Unoka was the stronger man. While he may have lacked the fiery conviction that Okonwko does posess, he seems relatively self-assured in his own lifestyle, and happy with his way of life (though it goes against the expectations of his tribal society).Okonkwo mainly deals with problems in his life by throwing himself into his work and stifling any emotion other than rage, which is much more detrimental to him as a character (this can be further observed when Okonkwo laments not having any work to do to take his mind off of Ikemefuna's death on page 64).

However, I would interpret Okonkwo's murder of Ikemefuna not necessarily as a fear of society's expectation or "painstakingly following the norm" (as Sarah put it). In my opinion, Okonkwo's actions are characterized moreover by the severe exaggeration of what he believes that normal males in his tribe should act like (Okonkwo is characterized as being the only one in his tribe who acts to such extremes). This could be seen as a direct result of Okonkwo's spurning of his father, and as such, a lack of healthy male influence in his life. For example, when the Oracle announces that Ikemefuna is to be killed, Ogbuefi Ezeudu (a greatly respected old man in Okonkwo's tribe) specifically asks Okonkwo to "have nothing to do with it."(p.57) because Ikemefuna "calls {Okonkwo} his father"(p.57). After ignoring the old man's sage advice and killing Ikemefuna with his own hands, Okonkwo's good friend Obierika warns him that "What {Okonkwo} has done [is displeasing to] the Earth... It is the kind of action for which the Goddess wipes out entire families."(p.67) showing that while Okonkwo has a perception that his tribe has only " very narrow definition(s) of Masculinity" as Sarah said,this is a rather grievous misconception on his part,as the tribe generally doesn't agree with Okonkwo's extremist deconstruction of the hyper-masculine African male, and does indeed have some revulsion at his over-the-top displays of masculinity (such as shooting at/beating his wives , and murdering Ikemefuna).The back of the book even characterizes Okonkwo's struggle in Part 1 as "Against Society"--> Reinforcing the idea that his preconceptions about masculinity are wrong.In fact, many African tribes valued men and women relatively equally (which was essentially unheard of in other areas of the world at the time), with a common practice among certain tribes being derived directly from the matriarchal clan structure.

In response to W.B. Yeats' poem "The Second Coming":

This poem was originally written in the post-WWI era (which occurred as a direct result of European imperialist tendencies a few decades earlier), and as such the poem would take place after Okonkwo's story had completely unfolded, with the author using this quote to look back and summarize his tragedy. The use of a mere quatrain of the poem (as opposed to the entire 22 lines, or even another section) could be interpreted as the author only finding those 4 lines pertinent to Okonkwo's life.The first complete thought, "Turning in a widening gyre, the Falcon cannot hear the Falconer; (one who trains and/or breeds falcons for aid with hunting)" could refer to the European attempts to supplant African society (substitution of European culture) as well as the importation of slaves.Much as a proud wild falcon cannot hear it's captor the Falconer, so would this be a powerful metaphor for the encroachment of White civilization upon the unsuspecting African societies, and the imposition of mass-slavery (Possible foreshadowing for Part 2).The next line "Things fall apart, the center cannot hold;" corresponds to the utter destruction wrought by the invading colonials unto African society, and that despite the once-greatness of African civilization, their proverbial "center(s)"(calling to mind population centers such as cities or fortresses) "cannot hold" off the European onslaught. The final line " Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world" (in proper historical context) pertains to the massive upheaval that African societies such as Okonkwo's faced in the during the age of Imperialism, and the need many Africans faced to find a new cultural identity in a white-dominated Africa.This could also refer to (in context of the story of black struggles) the inhuman conditions imposed upon slaves, and the cruelty inflicted by the Europeans upon their fellow man, reducing even the mightiest of African empires to a mere trembling and chaotic collection of city-states, characterized by anarchy as the panicked king attempts to pull his shattered army together and respond effectively to the alien threat.(Not to say that the Africans didn't fight back, and that some of their empires weren't effective, but I prefer this phrasing for added dramatic tension, even though it may not necessarily reflect the truths of African colonization).

I agree with Andy on the note that Okonwo is a man of action. However, as the plot develops, he seems to be more and more vulnerable and weak. Since the beginning of the book, he is portrait as the central of the village but doesnt seem to be so as book one develops. Achebe reveals to the audience how there is a high level of social mobility. Throughout the first book, Okonkwo seems to be fearful of his inner self and pays close attention to his actions in the village. Its very important to understand the shift that happens in the first book and to Keep in mind that Okonkwo is no longer the same boy we met in the beggining of the plot but somehow Achebe still reflects on his demeanor as a young boy.

I really sympathize with Okonkwo. It's not easy when one really despises their father or any of their parents. Their supposed to be someone to look up to, a role model of some sorts. His past experiences or actually his father's past experiences shaped him to be the man he is at the present time. He's just trying to be the man his dad wasn't. But his dad was really just enjoying life, doing what he loves. He wasn't worrying about titles or the harvest or anything important for that matter. Okonkwo does not want to be his father's son.

I have noticed that before continuing on with the novel that the speaker always gives thorough background information to assure the readers understanding in the events, history, traditions, and actions of the Ibo people. From reading most of part one and also the back of the book it seems to me like part one is a series of background information itself that will help the reader understand part 2 and 3 of the book. Meaning part one is all about the Ibo people so maybe part two and three will be about the changes the European missionaries make within the Ibo peoples lives.

I agree with the conclusions which mostly everyone has come to about Okonkwo. Stanley's interepretation specifically seems to match mine quite well.

However, what i find peculiar about this book is the unffailing faith that the people have in their traditions and religion. It seems so strange. Very rarely do the people doubt the customs of their village. In W.B. Yeat's poem, he recognizes this peculiar hold that religion and common beliefs have over people, calling it a "rough beast." This rough beast is most definitely a symbol for religion, and within this novel religion takes a large part in the structure and order of society. Afterall, the poem is titled "The Second Coming," which already connotes religion, for me at least.

It is interesting that Okonkwo is not unfailingly ruled by tradition and religion, but by self-image. He is the falcon that does not hear the falconer. Society does not rule him, his fears of appearing weak and worthless do. This will later cause "mere anarchy to be loosed upon the world." Okonkwo will resist the pull of society.

From the title alone one gets a sense of what should be watched for. A point, perhaps a climatic moment in either the main characters life or the clan as a whole. BUT! then you begin to tackle this read and realize right off the bat, as it describes Okonkwo's disapproval of his fathers being, that this isn't even going to start with anything together. How can something fall apart if it was never together in the first place? This is my first question. From reading the other comments I can see that everyone, essentially, is in agreement that the first thing Achebe wants to make clear is that this kid isn't whole to begin with, he didn't have a father figure he felt worthy of looking up to. Now the reader here has a choice, whether to sympathize or to frown upon his view on his father.I personally think your father is your father no matter his "rank". But is suppose if I were apart of a society like Okonkwo's I would too feel a little embarrassed. Although in a way I do sort of live in a society where title and "rank" (currency) is important to ones image. It's sad to know image was even a prime thought in peoples minds back then and in such a primal culture.

As you read on however you get a sense of what Achebe may be portraying as the togetherness that shall soon fall apart. The clan it's self, not necessarily just Okonkwos's life. The clan is a one unit, one custom, with many family units in it. As Okonkwo leads us through the everyday life of the clan he is apart of, we learn what keeps everything running, what it is that drives these people. Religion, yes that is a big focal point, also title. However we will soon see how long they can hold onto their tradition...

From the very beginning of this book one knows immediately that Okonkwo is a man of actions. He is a strong willed man. You learn that his lifestyle is lived in opposition to how his father lived his. I feel that Clarissa hit home with her question: "How can something fall apart if it was never together in the first place?". Agreeing with most other comments, Achebe hints towards the fact that Okonkwo's life had never been together in the first place. A dead beat father whom he despised everything about. His father never had titles, and was in debt to many people. Okonkwo's goal in life is to be prosperous and to have titles. He was quite renowned between the villages.

As far as what the poem considers the "rough beast" and what it means by "center will not hold", is clearly hinting towards the future of this novel. The rough beast as many have assumed thus far must represent the cultural and religious ties in the villages. And the fact that the center will not hold may refer to the fact that Okonkwo, and even his whole village may not hold true to the "rough beast".

Okonkwo truly wants to be the best man in the tribe because of the reputation of his father. He wishes solely to be the strongest and the most successful in the tribe. I agree with Brittany that it seems the author is trying to justify Okonkwo’s actions, saying it’s okay that he does this because he has his reputation to worry about. Okonkwo cannot express kindness or vulnerability which makes it difficult for him to have efficient relationships with people. Also, he killed someone so close to him just to be seen as so strong, which to me is an unforgivable act. Regarding the poem at the beginning of the book, I think it reflects the tribe, how the center of the tribe is not sturdy and might not be able to handle the alters in society as the book progresses.

I completely agree with Clarissa on that reading the title I expect something to crumble throughout this read. However, reading into Okonkwo's lifestyle at the beginning, there isn't much to fall apart. I understand why he wishes to be the best and known as having such strength, but i don't see his need in being vicious - especially towards his family who do nothing wrong. I think he mainly is vicious because that is the way of the clan and their culture.

I definitely agree with Daniel when he says the "center will not hold" refers to Okonkwo not holding true to the "rough beast" that he is known for and expected of all men in the village. We see his character develop into someone caring and shameful as he kills Ikemefuna. Achebe made Okonkwo the one to kill Ikemefuna out of fear of "being thought weak"(61) and following the murder, he "did not sleep at night", occasionally "a cold shiver descended on his head and spread down his body"(63). I think this may have been the beginning to the changed character of Okonkwo.

I definitely agree with what everyone is saying about Okonkwo and how he wants so desperately to prove to everyone in and out of his tribe that he is strong both mentally and physically. Like Haley said, he "proved" his physical along with his mental strength by killing someone of much importantance to him-he even says that he didn't want to do it and he lost sleep over it, yet he wanted to show the rest of his tribe that he was not weak. He definitely wants to prove to everyone around him that he is the complete opposite of what his father was and it is clear that he will do whatever is necessary to prove that, even if he is pretending to be the man that everyone thinks he is.

As for the poem, I believe that "things fall apart" and "the center cannot hold" are not only suggesting the cultural and religious problems that will soon rise to the surface, but that Okonkwo's actions are going to get the best of him and he will soon realize (along with everyone else) that the man he wants everyone to think he is is not the man that he truly is.

Like the Namesake, I found that Things Fall Apart is all about culture and traditions. Throughout the book , I had to get used to Okonkwo's senseless acts of violence towards his enemies, wife, and even his own kids. Even though it was disturbing to read about, I had realized that Okonkwo's violent ways had a lot to do with the tribe he was apart of. It was considered okay by his own tribe for Okonkwo to beat his wife if she didn't have dinner prepared or simply talked back to him. I am not saying I believe it is okay but I can understand why he thinks it is, being surrounded by men who believe that women are lower than they are. After all, they're crudest and most insulting name to bark at each other is "woman".

Because of the disappointment that Okonkwo has in his father's "womanly" ways, it is obvious that he strive to be as manly and feelingless as he can possibly be. I have to say one of the most disturning parts f this entire book was when Okonkwo had slaughtered Ikenefuma. It would be one thing if Okonkwo had been ordered by his tribe to do this act himself, but he wasn't even asked to go with them to kill him. I felt like Okonwo's pride and constant obsession with being manly , got in his way of his conscience. This scene is where I decided that Okonkwo had gone too far.

When I first glanced at the poem i tried to predict what would happen in the book. At first I thought that "center will not hold" meant that a family would be torn apart. However I came to the conclusion that it may refer to Okonkwo's sense of toughness and manliness will not be as strong as he would like it to be later in the book, due to his own mistakes such as killing Ikenefuma.

Throughout the beginning of the book, it becomes apparent, like everyone here mentions, that Okonkwo's obsession with masculinity is largely the result of his disappointment and embarrassment of his father's failure to be a strong and dependable role model. However, like Clarissa mentions, the author provides the reader with a choice to make: whether to sympathize with Okonkwo for his less than pleasant upbringing, as a result of his father's inability to properly raise and care for him, or to frown upon his brutality and mistreatment of loved ones and others in his clan, due to his temper and high disregard for weakness. After taking into proper consideration the facts the author provides, I sympathize with Okonkwo, not because his father was less than a father figure to him, but because of the psychological damage to him that came along, as a result. His anger and frustration toward his father's failures and weakness led him to believe that anyone, like his son for Nwoye for example, who displayed even the tiniest ounce of weakness, was or would be destined to be a failure in life, like Okonkwo's father Unoka.

Moreover, the fact that he detests showing any signs of kindness, mercy, affection, appreciation of celebrations like the Feast of New Yam, or understanding, shows how his own fear of becoming like his father begins to eat him alive. This is especially evident when he brutally beats both his wives Ojiugo and Ekwefi over extremely minor details, and murders his own adopted son Ikemufena, exposing how the anger and rage within him, in relation to his fear of being seen as weak and unfit, have truly taken a heavy toll on him psychologically. Nonetheless, even though I sympathize with his psychological damage, I do not condone his actions and shallow perspective of how one should live, because although partly the result of his disapproval of his father's lifestyle, are not the least bit excusable.

Furthermore, in his poem The Second Coming, W.B Yeats's states that "the center cannot hold", a revelation and foreshadow of what will become of Okonkwo's leadership in the clan, as well as his sanity, like Stanley mentioned. As a result, "things" such as the respect his clan has for him, as well as the order and peace within the clan, will begin to "fall apart", as the "rough beast" within Okonkwo continues to take over.

The gyre is an unnatural occurrence, an obstacle unwanted and catastrophic if left alone for it to unwind. The falcon is trying to go home to the arms of its father, but cannot do so because of the catastrophic incident. Things start to fall apart because things are not normal anymore, and when everything surrounding the center, the life, starts to break. the centre also starts to crumble. Now we have no center, no life to cling to, and in order to search for a new one we must abandon our old forms of life or as they say: create anarchy.

After reading the first third of this book, Okonkwo is indeed very masculine and searches to oppose his father’s own life as everyone above me has mentioned. I feel as though this masculine African social system, though revered in the past, cannot exist today, because obviously, we, the modern day people, have anarchized the tribal people in addition to destroying their lands and people. We are that gyre, that inevitable occurance of white men from Europe taking over the African tribes. However in the tribes itself where Okonkwo lives, the gyre would be himself to his family. Because Okonkwo gets mad easily and shows a very masculine identity he easily let things fall apart. As many above me have mentioned, the attack of his wife in the week of peace, the killing of Ikemefuna that might all lead to his demise.

And by rough beast, does one mean the men of their society? Surely it isn’t just Okonkwo who treats his women that way or anyone for that matter. The rough beast could be the primitivism of their culture, the way the act, believe, treat each other. And if that was the beast, then who would be its tamer?