Amazon Kindle discussion

I was just curious what some of your opinions were on indie authors that you find through your Kindle. I am not an author just an avid reader but I love the fact that so many great stories are getting a chance to reach people. I do think that they do not always get fair reviews. I have read some that I thought were wonderful, well written, and well edited but got just ok reviews. Only to read a traditionally published book very similar that had out of sight reviews. Do you feel everyone is harder on the self published? If so why? Just curious. Does anyone avoid self published all together?

I rarely read self-published works now- I did for a while, but I had real problems with the way that a lot of them were edited (or not). Not in terms of proof-reading for spelling errors etc...most ebooks seem to have huge problems with that, self-published or not. But I found it very frustrating to find an author with a good idea or interesting characters, and no sense of pacing, closure, brevity, etc...a lot of them seem to read like first year exercises in creative writing. No shame to them for that as everyone's got to start somewhere, but it's not something I'm eager to read.

I have no doubt that there are very good self-published books out there, but I've got enough to read that I don't want to spend time wading through the excess to get to them. I don't find reviews all that helpful, especially on amazon and goodreads. Especially with self-published books they often seem to be done by friends/family, and until there's a fairly good number of them it's difficult to get any idea at all what the book might be like.

As an author who is going to self-publish I won't be offended if anyone takes my comments with the obligatory pinch of salt :D However, I have read a number of self-published books now, and some of them had fantastic reviews from independent book bloggers and I still hated them. Some of them had lots of great reviews and were great. Some I found because I got talking to the authors and thought I'd try their books - and those have also been a mixed bag. Finally, some I found through samples at the end of another (good) author's work and the sample was well-written so I bought the book. Of the ones I've found through samples at the end of a book that I also liked, I haven't regretted buying the book.

It's a tough call and there are a number of self-published books that I've bought that I haven't finished, usually because of editing issues as Aenea pointed out above. It has dulled my enthusiasm for self-published books, but won't stop me buying them.

Some good authors who don't have these editing issues are Kait Nolan, Susan Bischoff and Zoe Winters for paranormal romance (Susan writes young adult), Steve Umstead for sci-fi and Al Boudreau for political thrillers. I don't tend to read much other stuff, so I can't tell you about other genres. Hope that helps you find some good authors :)

I do try them - I download the sample, and if it excites me, I'll give the rest of the book a go. The problem is, very few have captured my interest yet.

Which, let's face it, is a sorry state of affairs for an Indie author!

As for the editing ... the problem is that the majority of self published authors can't afford a professional editor to go through the work, whilst authors who are with a publishing house have the advantage of a team of editors to check their work.

I can't speak for other authors, but I simply cannot afford an editor (for Liberator's Ruin, my editing costs would have been around £2,000, due to the size of the book). I did have problems with typographical errors, but these have now been fixed. I guess, whilst I'm quite proud of my pacing, etc. my proofreading skills are not quite as good as I thought.

This, Aenea, is an an area in which you're completely right. I might feel that my ability to set the pace of the book is quite good (okay, that's a little arrogant, but I'm getting good reviews!), not all authors write to the same standard. Perhaps this will change in the next few years. It would be interesting to see a new publishing model, where the publishers are primarily an online entity, providing editing and marketing services for authors, as well as distributors to sellers such as Amazon, Apple, Barnes and Noble, etc.

With regards to reviews ... well, none of mine have been written by friends/family. I've been sending review requests out to bloggers and reviewers. But therein lies another problem: the dearth of people willing to review indie authors, especially ones whose book is an ebook. The market's changing, but damn slowly!

And yes, I do think that people are a bit harder on self-published books, perhaps due to the stigma left behind by vanity publishing?

This is just my opinion, as an indie author :)

Personally I feel it is the opposite. I have tried a number of indie authors on Amazon because of the combination of low prices and numerous good reviews and the majority of the time I am disappointed. I see a number of people in the reviews say the book is a great deal or worth it for the low price. Those comments lead me to believe that a lot of people are giving it a higher rating than they would have if they paid the $7-$9 price of a book from a major publisher.

To me the story alone is what I base my ratings on. I have plenty of books to choose from, far more than I could ever read. I am not going to waste my time reading a subpar book because it is inexpensive or to support an author indie or otherwise. If it is a good book I will be happy to buy it regardless of if it is self published or published by a major label.

That's a good attitude to take, Brandon. I suppose it's not that different to how we used to judge a book, by browsing the shelves, picking one out and reading a bit from it. Either you liked what you read enough to be persuaded to buy it, or back on the shelf it went.

I think that's one of the great things about being able to download a sample.

Brandon wrote: "Personally I feel it is the opposite. I have tried a number of indie authors on Amazon because of the combination of low prices and numerous good reviews and the majority of the time I am disappointed. [...]

To me the story alone is what I base my ratings on. I have plenty of books to choose from, far more than I could ever read. I am not going to waste my time reading a subpar book because it is inexpensive or to support an author indie or otherwise. If it is a good book I will be happy to buy it regardless of if it is self published or published by a major label. "

Brandon! Music to my Indie Author ears! I have an argument with my colleagues all the frakkin time about pricing. I insist that there's only so low you can go on price before the price really devalues the work. I'd rather just give it away FREE if my goal is to accumulate new readers. Then when I start charging again, I want to charge a price that I feel matches the value of the book and my name at that time.

I have 3 books in process right now--they'll all be between $3.99 and $7.99 or FREE. I can't imagine selling something for 99c. What is the point? Just to say it costs something? I know getting listed in the "Top FREE 100" is not as impressive to some as being in the "Top Paid 100" but honestly, I don't think you get there with a 99-cent book *smirk*

I'm also finding it really interesting--illuminating even!--to read the remarks here on this thread. It's amazing but I think you guys (readers) understand the term "editing" better than my fellow writers. That's another argument I have often. They often equate proofreading and line-editing (which I call wordsmithing) with the idea of "editing" which is another beast entirely.

The fact that READERS understand editing is about pacing, characterization, plotting, etc. and WRITERS think it means changing a word, changing it back, and changing it again, really amuses me. Thank you!

-sry
(Look for my SciFi thriller Conditioned Response coming this winter--together with chances to win FREE copies *haha*)

Sarah,
I agree with you that pricing is not the crucial factor in my book purchasing. I will say that I am much more willing to take a risk on a book that is $2. 99 or less.

I do download a lot of samples even if the book is only $0. 99 and I find a lot of them are lacking.

Put out a good book and if it is in a series once more books are out price the first one low and the others at a reasonable price. The low price will get me to take a risk of the synopsis or sample catches my attention and if I like it I will be happy to pay full price for the rest in the series.

There do seem to be a lot of authors who don't seem to like editing/understand what it is. You are right, it is more than just changing words. That, technically, is checking for grammar and spelling, not editing. The editing process is rough and ugly, and I respect the other indie authors who care enough about their book to work twice as hard on it as they may need to (we writers are, for lack of a better word, perfectionists). However, no one is perfect, and we all can learn from our mistakes. If I read a book that could have been better, I try and tell the author, so they're at least aware of it. From then on, it's the author's job to fix or not to fix.

I also agree with the pricing idea. I can understand maybe having a sale, where you give potential readers a coupon for a 99 cent read, but personally, I have pride in my book, and think it's worth more than 99 cents. My most recent is set at $2.99, and I like its price. I write for the YA market, and a lot of teens/young adults don't have as much money to spend, so I want to make it inexpensive for them while still giving my book some integrity. This, however, is a personal opinion. I know a lot of authors who have done well with their books set at 99 cents, and if they believe it works for them, then I say go for it! I also think you should have the paperback available as well, for those readers who either want to keep it, or simply like paper.

All in all, there are good indie authors, and there are bad. But there are also good and bad traditionally published authors, too. I really think it all measures up to finding a book you're interested in, reading a sample of it, and then deciding whether or not you want to buy it. Indie or traditional doesn't matter to me -- I simply want to read a good book, just as much as I strive to write a good book.

I tend to avoid self-published books because the authors tend not to put in the amount of effort require to bring a book to publication. I don't expect every book to perfect, but I expect them to put effort it. The publishing and writing world is a business and I'm customer. If you're putting out poor quality material, don't expect me to pay for it. If I'm putting out money, I expect professional quality work. Publishers put a lot of work into bringing a book to publication and if an author isn't ready or able to do that work themselves, then they shouldn't. That's my two cents on the matter. =)

(Also, for those of you who are self-publishing and are looking for an editor, hit me up. ;) I edit full time for a few houses and do freelance work with very reasonable rates. I'm also very willing to work with authors on price.)

Brandon, "ditto"? :) We agree 100% on this pricing plan! I'm delighted my business approach matches what a reader thinks is fair, right, appropriate.

Alexandra, it's funny to read your comments about the effort. I actually have solicited reviewers from the Creative Reviews group here on Goodreads to come to my work in process space and help me edit AS I WORK, as in they are my editors. Can't ask for better feedback than actual readers who review books "for a living" so to speak (most do it for free and the joy of reading but they read 3-5 books a week on average - VORACIOUS readers these folks are!)

Over the years I've used what I call First Readers but they aren't just "test" reading my book and saying "yea" or "nay." I should probably call them an advisory board or something because MY First Readers are always asked to input on a 4pt critique, answering questions--one chapter at a time--about the characterizations, the voice (is it consistent, appropriate, believeable for this POV character) not to mention having someone check to be sure I don't do "head hopping" which makes me INSANE when I read it in others (more than insane when I catch it in my own work!) the plotting and the pacing. Those 4 topics are the major points. I have a set of questions I send them via email and they have to answer them before they get the next chapter.

One would think my system would not pay off, that they'd get tired of answering the questions as "payment" to get the next chapter emailed to them but the funny thing is, not once have I had someone NOT want the next chapter, not for any of my books. Hmmm. (LOL) I write extremely good characterizations and my stories are character-centered. My biggest fault lies in plotting and pacing but my FR's help with that.

I can't imagine doing all that work alone and I think Indie Authors who do try to do it alone, who are "afraid' to give their book "away" as though someone might steal it and publish it themselves or something...well, they crack me up . It is soooo much freakin hassle to publish a book, why would someone bother? Then again, my crap book was stolen and someone tried to publish it on Amazon this spring so maybe there are people stealing books out there. Just not any of my FRs :) They "pay" for theirs, four times over, one chapter at a time :)

And now I am getting offline for my one whole day off (Sat) to try to delete about 9000 words of the first 60,000 in my SciFi thriller...speaking of editing and pacing issues. L8R

-sry
p.s. anyone who's interested in "sampling" my voice and doesn't mind Romantic Suspense, I have a chapter I'm sampling on my blog tomorrow for the Saturday Surprise. The chapter really reads more like it's from some kind of suspense thriller than a romance but it's a romance novel, trust me :) And the human trafficking issue is a theme in nearly all of my books--slavery is something I personally feel a need to speak out about whenever I can. It's even in my SciFi thriller!

Check the Webbiegrrl blog Saturday after 10am Eastern for the chapter (it's about 6500 words). The book (Lacey / Rainey Story) will be out "sometime" in 2012. I have about 65% written, 80% plotted and a LOT of work to do to pull it together but first I need to get this SciFi book out Dec/Jan timeframe!

That is true, it's good to have people who will read your work and comment on it. I go to a local author group where my friends/fellow authors read and comment, and we all help each other out. It's good to have people who will give you feedback as you're working on it, and I love to be able to help them out with their work, too. I think everyone needs a support system and readers -- indie author or traditionally published. Writing is a lonely profession, so it's good to have someone to lean on.

Alexandra wrote: "All in all, there are good indie authors, and there are bad. But there are also good and bad traditionally published authors, too. I really think it all measures up to finding a book you're interested in, reading a sample of it, and then deciding whether or not you want to buy it. Indie or traditional doesn't matter to me -- I simply want to read a good book..."

I agree with Alexandra's words above.

Like any creative endeavor, writing is a bell curve: Some of it is very good, some of it is very bad, and most of it falls somewhere in the middle.

This is true of eBooks AND print.

And for either form, a reader has to use what tools are available - author familiarity, word-of-mouth, reviews, samples, GoodReads - to winnow the number of offerings, separating the wheat from the chaff.

More books - and particularly eBooks, of course - are being published now than ever before.

And, true, more books means more crap.

But it means more good stuff, too.

The Bell Curve rules!

Todd

Will wrote: "Like any creative endeavor, writing is a bell curve: Some of it is very good, some of it is very bad, and most of it falls somewhere in the middle.

This is true of eBooks AND print."

Oh I agree that I have read some truly horrible paper books or E-books published by major publishers. However the frequency is much less than with self published e-books.

I love the liberation of self publishing and that the internet provides letting people get heard and the stories out there without having to filter or adjust content to make big publishers happy.

That said unfiltered means anyone can publish anything regardless and unfortunately then it means having to wade through a lot of stuff to find the few rare gems. Which is why I feel that publishers still have a vital place in the ecosystem. I know buying a book from a publisher it has gone through some filters and while it is no guarantee I will like the book there is a much higher chance I will than with randomly downloading something that is self published.

Anyone who used to read fan-fiction or short stories on various websites knows for every good user submitted story there are dozens or hundreds that are mediocre at best.

Brandon wrote: "Oh I agree that I have read some truly horrible paper books or E-books published by major publishers. However the frequency is much less than with self published e-books."

I agree that the percentage of "crap" in self-published books is probably higher than the percentage of traditionally published books.

"I love the liberation of self publishing and that the internet provides letting people get heard and the stories out there without having to filter or adjust content to make big publishers happy."

Well said, and I absolutely agree.

"That said unfiltered means anyone can publish anything regardless and unfortunately then it means having to wade through a lot of stuff to find the few rare gems."

True...

...but this has ALWAYS been true, even with traditionally published books. I go back to what I said earlier about employing filters to choose books - author familiarity, word-of-mouth, reviews, samples, GoodReads - to winnow the wheat from the chaff. When you walk into a bookstore, you are faced with an overwhelming number of choices. Just like shopping in a virtual bookstore, like Amazon. In both cases, you have tools you use to narrow those choices. The number of choices in the virtual bookstore may be greater...

...but so are the tools.

"Which is why I feel that publishers still have a vital place in the ecosystem."

Here we begin to diverge. Publishers have dictated what I can and can't read for too long. I don't need nor want their "help" anymore.

"I know buying a book from a publisher it has gone through some filters and while it is no guarantee I will like the book there is a much higher chance I will than with randomly downloading something that is self published."

It's with the word "randomly" above that I most disagree. I would no more "randomly" buy a book in a bookstore than I would online. Again, in both cases, you use certain tools to guide you - genre, author, book cover, description, and sampling. Only online, you have instant access to other tools as well - reviews, recommendations from trusted groups or social media. You can provide your own "filters" now...

...and I think that is a good thing.

Finally:

"Anyone who used to read fan-fiction or short stories on various websites knows for every good user submitted story there are dozens or hundreds that are mediocre at best. "

Yep, as I said above:

The Bell Curve Rules!

Todd

Todd,
I should not have used the word "random" when talking about buying indie ebooks. I certainly look at genre synopsis and user reviews.

I feel it is a much riskier proposition buying from an indie author than from one published traditionally for a number of reasons.

I can understand that some people don't like publishers or any sort of filtering be it industry or big brother. There are numerous smaller publishers out there that print books covering many controversial topics so I do not feel that the traditional publishing method is censoring what we can read in a major way. Perhaps I am naive or simply have not stumbled upon certain content that I want to read but is unavailable from any publisher.

I'd like to share a very interesting article about indie authors and self-published books - http://write2publish.blogspot.com/201....
What the piece is saying is that we should stop calling ourselves self-published authors and just call ourselves authors. "Take down that big neon sign that screams indie author", Dawson says...and I agree with her. Remove everything that tells the reader that you're self-published and let them judge you on your writing. That means adding great book covers, writing an engaging description, and having your book professionally edited. As I keep saying, you owe it to yourself and your readers to produce the best work you can. Even if people hate the ideas, characters, plot, at least you can say you gave them the best you had.
John Dwyer

No matter how an author is published, that author must prove him or herself to every single reader on an individual basis. The only difference is that self-published authors are all lumped together, meaning that if a reader picks up one bad apple, all the apples suddenly look bad.

Readers respond to authors the same way they always have; when they find one they like, they want more and devour everything that author has written.

To those of you who haven't found an indie author you adore yet, it'll happen, but until then you can trust that there are those of us fighting to be the best writers possible so that we're ready for that moment when you finally take a chance on us.

John wrote: "I'd like to share a very interesting article about indie authors and self-published books - http://write2publish.blogspot.com/201....
What the piece is ..."

John, please remove the link to your book from your post.

This is a very interesting discussion!

I think it really comes down to where you stand, and what you're willing to accept. Personally, I don't see much different between a traditionally published author and someone who has taken the initiative to write a book and publish it themselves, other than the fact that the traditional author has a major company backing them. A indie author can get pretty much everything a traditionally published author can if they want -- an editor, a marketing team, a cover designer, etc. A lot of them don't (myself included), but that is their choice. I also know a some of indie authors who were English majors, and could probably edit just as well as someone they may pay to do the job.

The major difference is that the indie authors don't go through all the red tape that the traditionally published ones do, and have more work in some ways. But really, neither is bad. If an author puts their heart into the book and works hard on it, then someone will like and appreciate it, and that's really all that an author wants -- for someone to read/like their story.

Jason wrote: "No matter how an author is published, that author must prove him or herself to every single reader on an individual basis. The only difference is that self-published authors are all lumped together..."

Have to agree with what Jason says here. I'm an indie author myself who just released my first book, and I find from reading forums and participating in the community, no matter what you do, you have that stigma attached to you until you gain a following.

I also agree, to a certain extent, with some of what was said about price. However, I'm a man with thousands of hardcover books from my favorite fantasy authors and I cannot see myself paying $10 to $15 for a digital book. Publishers used the excuse of paper costs to set prices. All well and good. I didn't mind, as I loved and still love the feel of a good hard cover. Space requirements for an extensive library as mine aside, I see it as sheer greed when publishers charge such prices for the ebooks, knowing that most of the time it cost them a tiny percentage to put out the ebook compared to the print edition.

As for quality and reading self-published authors. Since buying a kindle and now toting around my tablet, I tend to read a lot of indie authors. I have also discovered how bad some of it can be, from bad grammar to bad plot and pacing. Yet, I can deal with plot and pace issues. Why? That's subjective. Example, I gave GRRM's A Dance with Dragons four stars. Tons of people hated because he ties up 0 plot, meanders a bit, introduces new characters and the book really doesn't push the plot forward that much, yet for me it was enjoyable. Maybe, I'm biased because I like 90% of the series. The same can be said for any author. What works for one or what one reader likes, another may feel is trash. Grammar issues though drive me up a wall.

One thing is for sure. When I've found indies I do like, I buy their books and read just as I would any traditionally published author.

A good read is a good read.

I think you're completely right. Self-pubs get a bad rap. I know because I am one. Although my books get good reviews, people look at me strange when I tell them what I do for a living. I think it will just take a while for people to see the good ones float to the top. It's still the early stages of self-publishing so right now everyone is doing it, and like anything, not everyone is good. Soon, the people whose hearts are not into it, will leave and the rest of us will just keep writing. At that point, it will be easier to find the good stuff. Until then, we as self-pubs appreciate the support!

Quite :)

I agree with Jason. The customer is always right!

I have been traditionally published and indie published and soon to be Amazon published. And, really, there is no difference in the quality (although Amazon is great to work with it). In fact, I feel many of my indie books are of better quality than my traditionally published books. And now I almost exclusively read indies because I am not paying $10 for an ebook that should cost $5 or less. \I don't care who wrote it. Pricing an ebook above $5 is an insult to customers.

For those who believe traditional publishers and editors save you from bad writing, I offer this line my daughter read to me from Stephenie Meyer's New Moon:

"I thought we picked a zombie movie," I hissed.

Try hissing that line. There is no sibilant. In Writing 101 they teach you need an s-sound to hiss a sentence. I mean, maybe you can hiss a Z, or the th if you have a speech impediment.

Anyway, I am sure you can find lots of horrid examples from indie books, but the "stamp of approval" is a crap shoot and editing services as easily available for all indie writers if they are committed to their customers.

Scott wrote: "I agree with Jason. The customer is always right!

I have been traditionally published and indie published and soon to be Amazon published. And, really, there is no difference in the quality (altho..."

Well said.