Victorians! discussion

Wilkie Collins was the inventor of the "sensation novel," which brought Gothic themes out of the mouldering castle and into the Victorian home. His most famous works are The Woman in White and The Moonstone.

Note that plot details of Collins' novels may be discussed in this thread. Hopefully they'll be marked as spoilers, but one never knows.

Alex, I am about to start The Woman in White with another group and well, The Moonstone was my most favorite book that we read in high school. I have read a number of others of his and truly loved them all.

Love TWIW! Read The Dead Secret and found it great fun. A very enjoyable read. Hope to read The Moonstone next year.

I've only read Woman in White, but I thought it was just awesome.

Something Anna and I briefly debated a week or so ago: is Marian Halcombe a total misogynist or a feminist hero?

I think Halcombe's actions put the lie to her words, and she knows they do. She's consistently the smartest person in any given room. I think her endless comments about how weak and lame women are are sarcastic - bitterly so. As a plain-looking, fiercely intelligent, independent woman, she knows society has no place for her. My feeling is that if anyone speaks for Collins, it's Fosco in his unabashed admiration.

Marialyce wrote: "Alex, I am about to start The Woman in White with another group and well, The Moonstone was my most favorite book that we read in high school. I have read a number of others..."

Now I'm downright jealous. Woman in White was my first Collins, and my review even says, "why weren't they teaching this guy when I was in high school?" No wonder you like Victorian literature, Marialyce! I love Dickens, which was our high school required reading, but not because I read him in HS. In fact, I didn't - instead I listened to classroom discussions and faked my way through it. No, I discovered him about 10 years later. But Collins? I might have loved then, as I do now, more of 19th Century lit!

Ah...you're not done with the book, are you? He says some very nice things later.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "Alex, I am about to start The Woman in White with another group and well, The Moonstone was my most favorite book that we read in high school. I have read ..."

Believe me it was one of the few books that I liked then. That and Catcher in the Rye which was hysterical reading it in a Catholic girls' HS. We all felt that the teacher, a very young nun had not pre read the book. The others we read were always a Shakespeare (who I do not care for at all...don't kill me) and of course there were Dickens books which I don't think a 15-16 year old really can appreciate, at least this former (way former) 15 - 16 year old didn't.

Yup.

Collins is one of mu favourite author. Definitly The Woman in White and The Moonstone are his best novels, but ho wrote tons of other nice, sometimes really nice books. This year I've read No Name and I liked it a lot!

I read about a hundred pages yesterday of TWiW and just find it super. His writing always wonderful to me in his other novels has taken on even more dimension here I feel. From the get go the pace is quick, the story solid, the motivation to keep reading strong.

Within his various books, does anyone know what order TWiW was written? Was it his first novel? I love the intricacies of the relationships he has established, with clearly defined people and certainly that level of suspense authors today strive for. I know The Moonstone was the first of its kind establishing the mystery genre that most love.

Did you know there are over 40 cliffhangers in this novel which even though it is about 150 years old is still read greatly today. It was published in Dickens' Weekly newspaper All the.Year Round, and was published with the conclusion of The Tale of Two Cities. It caused a major sensation although the critics had mixes reactions.

Wondering how Dickens felt about be upstaged for a bit?

Wilkie Collins was quite prolific:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/c/w...

According to this list Woman in White was published in 1859 while Moonstone was published in 1868.

I have Armadale on my Kindle, but don't know when I'll get to it. (Someone has a bunch of Dickens ahead of it, and then there's my Trollope challenge and - who knows?)

Collin and Dickens were friends. Collins be asked to contribute to Dickens periodical. In the later years I read that their relationship declined. I found this as a possible explanation:

In later years, shortly before Dickens's death, relationships between them were, for a while, strained. One possible reason is that Wilkie's brother Charles Allston Collins had married Dickens's daughter Kate (10). Charles was a sickly man to whom Dickens took a growing dislike as they both headed towards the grave (11). After Dickens's death our knowledge of Collins's feelings about him come from some marginal notes he made in Forster's The Life of Charles Dickens.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Wilkie Collins was quite prolific:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/c/w...

According to this list Woman in White was published in 1859 while Moonstone was published in 1868.

I have [..."

Hmm..I wonder who that could be?

I do want to read a good biography of the both of them.

Cool Anna, glad you ended up feeling the same way about Halcombe as I did. Toward the beginning of the book I was surprised and confused by all the weird things coming out of her mouth, but I ended up understanding her frustration.

(view spoiler)[And yeah, Fosco's confession is a towering work of hubris, huh? What a character. I thought it was more the hubris than the love that made him write that magnum opus. I'm trying to remember exactly how nailed he was when he wrote it...not completely, right? Sounds like that's what you're saying. He could have just escaped, but he chose to make this sort of sacrifice on his way out the door and fix everything? (hide spoiler)]

LauraT wrote: "Collins is one of mu favourite author. Definitly The Woman in White and The Moonstone are his best novels, but ho wrote tons of other nice, sometimes really nice books. This..."

He is one of my favorite too. Loved all of them that I have read, and look forward to reading many more.

(view spoiler)[Anna wrote: "I was reading as he sort of knew he might die and he couldn't stand to go without letting someone in on his brilliance"

Okay, yeah, I wondered about that. Couldn't quite remember how doomed he was when he wrote that note.

I wasn't sure what to think about the Walter / Marian / Laura triangle. Laura's a perfectly sweet woman, but boring as hell; how could anyone not be more in love with Marian? But I'm not sure if that's really supported by the text, or it's just our own biases showing.

What about Walter as unreliable narrator? My introducer talked a lot about that. I'm just gonna quote from my review, sorry, and full credit to the editor (whose name I can't find right now):

Hartright takes forever in his attempt to save Percival's life. Is it possible that he was stalling? Was it really impossible for him to go to the police? Does he bear some responsibility for Fosco's murder? In each of these cases, Collins gives him an excuse: no townspeople thought of better ways to save Percival; Mr. Kyrle insists that he has "not a shadow of a case"; the scarred man picks up on Fosco's identity as Hartright does. I'm not convinced that we're supposed to believe Hartright is lying to us, but I do think we're supposed to think about it.

(hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[Great, another book for my TBR list. I'll do Possession first.

Given that there are at least three narrators WiW that are clearly unreliable - Fairlie, Mrs. Catherick and Fosco - I think it's fair to say that Collins was playing with the concept. (And as a guy who loves the epistolary format, I can't imagine using it if one didn't want to explore narrative unreliability; that's, like, most of the fun.)

I doubt Collins intended it to be black and white in Walter's case; maybe it's just a little detail throw in for fun. A minor added facet.

And you're right, if Walter is less of a goody two-shoes than he appears, it makes him a more interesting character. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[It was a little bit out of nowhere, huh? Bit of a deus ex machina, really. Didn't bother me at the time because it's not like this wasn't a book full of crazy plot twists already, but you're not the first person to point it out; I'm starting to rethink it a little bit. (hide spoiler)]

I finished and loved TWiW. I loved its form, its twists, its characters, and the style of the writing. Having read Collins before, I was use to his narrations by the characters in which I think his law background pretty much comes into focus. I enjoyed the forty or so cliffhangers and although (view spoiler)[I agree with your assessment of the whimpiness of Laua, I had to applaud that he created a strong woman in Marian. Funny, I thought that maybe later when Laura passes, Walter would marry Marian, I even thought so in parts of the novel....now that might have been a plot twist!

The ending reminded me a bit of the genre that was so popular after The DaVinci Code was published, secret religious societites and all and there has always been a mystery, fascination about the Masons so even though it was an odd presentation, it did sort of fit. (hide spoiler)]

Marialyce wrote: "I finished and loved TWiW. I loved its form, its twists, its characters, and the style of the writing. Having read Collins before, I was use to his narrations by the characters in which I think his..."

One of my all time favorite books.

Anna, I have not read that yet, so I am not going to peek!

I'm halfway through reading The Woman in White for the first time and it's SO GOOD!!!

SPOILER:
.....
I just read the part where Count Fosco leaves that message in Marion's diary - omg! I'm very worried for her and Laura right now. Epic book!

Anna wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "Anna, I have not read that yesterday, si u am not going to peek!"

If you ever do read it, let me know what you think!"

It is on my list to read. Now of course, I have pushed it higher up. Perhaps after I finish Vanity Fair. Thanks Anna!

Marialyce wrote: "Anna, I have not read that yesterday, si u am not going to peek!"

Byatt's The Children's Book is onj my tbr list too; probably by the beginning of next year; it would be nice if we read it "in parallel"!!!

Absolutely, Laura. We could do a "buddy read" and invite anyone who wants to to join us.

I need to read Uncles Silas after what you told me Anna!!!
And let's do a buddy read for Byatt and I'll be one of the number.
After that I don't know where to find the time to work, but that's unother problem!!!

I have read only two Collins, and I much preferred The Moonstone over The Woman in White. Not sure if I have them rated that way, but that's the way I'm remembering them.

Good!

LauraT wrote: "Good!"

I'm reading Uncle Silas now, and am finding it's a page turner.

Considering that Collins wrote two of my favorite books (TWIW and Moonstone), I've been surprised by how little I liked those of his other books I've read. No Name started out well, but I thought it became too melodramatic at the end, and Basil ... just no. Also, I think they are both too long. I can take any amount of plot complications and diversions from Dickens, but with these two books I felt things were stretched out.

Spoiler:



Hartright as a not altogether credible narrator: I don't think I ever put it all together before, but there were times when I felt a little uneasy about his actions and, particularly, his inactions. I don't think he meant Percival to die, but I don't think he wanted him to live enough to greatly exert himself in an effort to save him. Besides, Hartright is a bit of an indecisive and easily-influenced person throughout. I can see him trying to think of what to do at some of the important points in the plot, until it was too late to do anything.

I totally agree with you about Basil. So poorly written. I was very disappointed by the antagonist farcically admitting all in a letter and instead of Basil taking the incriminating evidence to the police or equivalent, we had to read that ludicrous confrontation on a clouded mountain. Still, it was an early work and we must allow him such lapses in plot and development.

However, he commits the same/similar flaws in later works - Armadale for instance, remarkable for having a leading character who is black, flawed only by the fact that he shares his name with another character which at times makes things hard to follow. Yet, with all its flaws, I quite enjoyed Armadale - especially the scheming Lydia Gwilt.

Loved The Dead Secret, TWIW and The Moonstone. No Name was ok and I agree with your assesment, and I found The Law and The Lady, a bit hard to swallow considering the premise of the plot but an enjoyable jolly romp nevertheless.

Other than The Dead Secret, TWIW, and The Moonstone, I do not rate highly Collins as a writer other than he's good at writing relatively interesting yarns which can amuse while passing the time.

Interesting that y'all don't think his other work stands up. Bummer.

Teresa, love your point about unreliable narration. Anna and I discussed that above in that series of spoiler posts. Fun stuff.

Malcolm wrote: Yet, with all its flaws, I quite enjoyed Armadale - especially the scheming Lydia Gwilt.

I forgot he wrote Armadale. Yes, I enjoyed that one. I should have said before when I mentioned No Name, that I don't mind melodrama if it's handled effectively (at least effectively in my opinion). In fact, I take a guilty pleasure in it. (And yes, Nicholas Nickleby, I mean you.)

Anna wrote: "Isn't it just? I'm having a hard time reading anything else. How far along are you, Deborah?"

I finished Uncle Silas this weekend. I can now focus on Daniel Deronda. I started it late (yesterday) but should be up to snuf soon.
Loved Uncle Silas and it was a perfect time of year to read it.

@Teresa- What wasn't effective about No Name for you?"

As the story progressed, I felt the characters were being manipulated by the author in service to a preordained plot. They lost credibility for me, so much so that I have to admit that at one point I stopped reading and started skimming. I was interested in how it came out (sheer curiosity) but I was growing tired of how long it took to get there.

I've only read "Moonstone" of Wilkie Collins. I can't say I really liked it much. I found it tedious and contrived. I know its near and dear to many of you, but I don't see the charm. (Sorry if you love it).

Didn't Dickens pan the book as well?

Dickens probably was jealous and probably felt a little threatened. Who can tell with these authors? But I thought The Moonstone hilarious, and we didn't have to put up with Dickens's brand of comedy capers.

Jamie, I had the impression that Dickens and Collins were like literary BFFs; they were travel partners and sometime collaborators, and Dickens published many of Collins' books, Moonstone included, in his own journal (All The Year Round). But your question led me to this article from the terrific website Victorian Web; it looks like you're right, Dickens didn't love it. In fact, in the end, Collins' "growing opium addiction and his peculiar relationships...led to his estrangement from Dickens." (Collins was polyamorous...or something.) So thanks, that added some depth to my impression of him.

Marialyce wrote: "I do want to read a good biography of the both of them."

There's a new Peter Ackroyd biog of Wilkie Collins out next March.

Laurence wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "I do want to read a good biography of the both of them."

There's a new Peter Ackroyd biog of Wilkie Collins out next March."

Thank you, I will definitely look for it.

He's done a series of brief lives over the past few yrs. Looking at the length of this one i doubt it will be as comprehensive as his great Dickens.

Wilkie Collins is awesome! I loved TWIW and I'm really looking forward to reading The Moonstone.

I do agree!!!

I'd never heard of Collins before I began listening to the BBC's Books and Authors podcast--a great pity, as I missed an author just as good as Dickens (gods of literature, please don't strike me down).
As Teresa said, some of the plot wrangling takes a long time to unravel, but I rather enjoy the slow savoring of the story instead of a flash-bang sort of thing. Maybe it reminds me of the kinds of stories and daydreams I make up; they always have sinfully long back stories too.
I can't call myself an expert at this point (I'm on the cusp of finishing TWIW), but I appreciate how Collins handles the voices of his characters. With each new narrator, certain changes in style change the whole effect of the stories they tell. You can deeply understand the cleverness of Fosco, the selfishness of Mr. Fairlie, even the strictly Protestant narrowness of Mrs. Mitchellson by reading between the lines of their depositions. And I appreciate that at least one female character isn't the "angel in the house" like Dora and Agnes or the witch/frigid psycho like Miss Havisham and Estella in Dickens.

I'd never heard of him either until I read Drood.

Maxine wrote: "I missed an author just as good as Dickens (gods of literature, please don't strike me down). "

I am certainly no god of literature, and I equally certainly wouldn't have struck you down if I were, but I must admit I did purse my lips at the thought.

Everyman wrote:
I am certainly no god of literature, and I equally certainly wouldn't have struck you..."

I will plead I haven't read enough of either to be a competent judge myself.

I'm currently reading The Moonstone. My library copy was printed oddly, but I am liking it.