Nordic Noir discussion

OK, I just found out through my library, they have this thing similiar to Rosetta Stone, called Mango. I am going to learn a Nordic language I just need to figure out where to go first..what is your guys opinions? Here are my choices:

1) Finnish
2) Danish
3) Norwegian

Also, are these like the "romance" languages that if you master one, it is easier to "figure out" or master the other ones??

Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are related. They are all Germanic languages. I would recommend starting with Swedish, then add Norwegian and Danish later on.

Finnish is another cup of tea alltogether... It has nothing in common with the other nordic languages. It's not Germanic, not Romance. In fact, it's not even Indoeuropean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_...

Awesome..thanks for the information. I can't start with Swedish, as my library doesn't have it, but they do have the other two you talk about. I know in the description, it talked about Finnish being spoken somewhat in Sweden, so you totally threw me off with that one..I am happy I posted..thanks again, fizzycola!

I suck at the CD lessons, unfortunately, I tried...but that place in DC I found is starting another class on the 8th

I figure I'll repeatedly go through the lessons. I am also going to try to grab one of the books from Hakan nesser or karin fossum which hasn't been translated yet..I just have to figure out how...

Of those, I'd recommend Swedish. I know you didn't list it, but it would be the most spoken of those listed. And once you know Swedish, learning Norwegian and Danish is relatively easy.

Finnish has nothing to do with any language, and it would also be the language that would take the longest to learn (to a level where you could actually enjoy a book). Everything is just way too different from the usual European language. It's not enough to know pöytä is table when you rarely see the words in the basic form. All the additions go to the word itself: tables/on the table/their tables/at their table/from their table etc. So pöytiä, pöytää, pöydälle, pöydältä, pöydästä, pöydättä...
If you think it sounds interesting and fun, go for it.
But it's also the most difficult of those, and it won't help you in the future with any other language (except maybe Estonian).

Y'all also find Swedish, Finnish and bunch of other language courses from FSI catalogs - free for your own use
http://fsi-language-courses.org/Conte...
Even if some of them are from the 70s, the language hasn't changed that much for the basics. And these are the courses the US FSI used for training their own staff to be positioned in those exotic places.

I would suggest Norwegian as a starting point. Danish is pronounced in a really odd way; I think you'll find it easier to learn Norwegian first and then pick up the peculiarities of Danish (and Swedish) accents.

As has already been mentioned, Finnish is a rather odd language - fun, but not so useful.

Rachel wrote: "Finnish is a rather odd language - fun, but not so useful"

WOT? Not useful? Lol, for me it definitely is! It's my native tongue, you see. Along with Swedish.

But in fact - Finnish is a very different language. Which makes it an interesting language, too. A challenge for anyone who likes to collect strange/difficult/esoteric languages.

when you mentioned finnish, I just had visions of the scene from confessions of a shopaholic where she claims to speak Finnish and it made me laugh

Anna wrote: "Y'all also find Swedish, Finnish and bunch of other language courses from FSI catalogs - free for your own use
http://fsi-language-courses.org/Content...."


Great info Anna, Thanks! :D

Anna wrote: "Of those, I'd recommend Swedish. I know you didn't list it, but it would be the most spoken of those listed. And once you know Swedish, learning Norwegian and Danish is relatively easy.

Finnish ha..."

Thanks..I did check that out and put it in my favorites file... I will def. be using it.

Fizzycola wrote: "Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are related. They are all Germanic languages. I would recommend starting with Swedish, then add Norwegian and Danish later on.

Finnish is another cup of tea alltogeth..."

Isn't the language family Ugric (sp.) Brought here by migrants from the Ural mountains. That may just be conjecture.

But yes, Fizzycola is right. Definitely start with Swedish. It's by far the easiest, then the related languages fall into place fairly easily.

Alright, I can get a Swedish language tapes from my library, then there is also the site that Anna recommended.

Do you guys know any simple kids books in Swedish that I can start with???

The biggest problem with learning Finnish is that it's really hard if you don't have someone to practice with. I've studied other languages with tapes and they were ok, but Finnish is just too odd. BTW, to speak it correctly, you have to use your mouth and throat in ways that you don't in most other languages. It's not impossible, but a lot easier if someone can explain, for instance, how to vocalize tripthongs (sp) with sounds that don't occur in English. And please, learn to roll your Rs

That is odd that my library has Finnish then and not Swedish..I wonder if that is because the have Norwegian, Danish and Dutch??

you have to use your mouth and throat in ways that you don't - oh yeah, my mind just went right to the gutter when I read that sentence ;)

**Shakes Head*** "No You Didn't Just Go There!!!" God help us all!!

oh yes I did...lol! I should probably apologize for my gutter mind in advance

Anyone who knows you, Dee...knows that mind went into the gutter a really long, long, long time ago!! My guess..when you were still in utero!! lol

lol!!

Naomi wrote: "Alright, I can get a Swedish language tapes from my library, then there is also the site that Anna recommended.

Do you guys know any simple kids books in Swedish that I can start with???"

Why don't you start with the books by Astrid Lindgren?

Dee wrote: " you have to use your mouth and throat in ways that you don't - oh yeah, my mind just went right to the gutter when I read that sentence ;)"

I went there too, Dee! (hangs my head in shame)

Pam wrote: "Dee wrote: " you have to use your mouth and throat in ways that you don't - oh yeah, my mind just went right to the gutter when I read that sentence ;)"

I went there too, Dee! (hangs my head in ..."

Oh, Lord..there are two of you!!

see Naomi!! I'm not the only one!!

;-)

I have been in a group with Pam, Dee...trust me I knew you weren't the only one!!! lol

HHHHHHEEEEEEEYYYYYYY, wait a minute!

ROFLMBO!!!!

LOL. I never thought of that when I wrote it. Can't stop giggling.

Sadly, my mind went right there as well.

I discovered today that someone has written a book about How to Marry a Finnish Girl :) Gee. Too bad can't get that book from Amazon yet...

Hm, someone should write a similar book for how to marry a Swedish guy. Swedes (men) seem equally popular in the US, it'd definitely be helpful if there was a guide for hunting some of them. At least I have a handful of friends who'd love to find a Swedish guy...

Hmm... the story here is that Swedish guys mostly like Swedish guys... Or not necessarily Swedish.

Hey, hey, hey! Let's be nice.

And exactly what isn't nice in that? Is being gay "not nice?"

Often heard in Finland: "friggin furiners. Comin here, takin our jobs, stealin our wimin." My answer, "get a friggin job and act like a human being."

James wrote: "Often heard in Finland: "friggin furiners. Comin here, takin our jobs, stealin our wimin." My answer, "get a friggin job and act like a human being.""

Yeah, but you hear that a lot more in Sweden and Norway and Denmark...

heck, you hear it in the US with illegal immigrants...and all I ever want to do is yell at them and tell them to get off their fat asses and get a job...heck even mcdonalds is better than being unemployed

I used to hear it a lot more before I spoke Finnish. I'm pretty much left alone. Of course being white helps. Because of my soft accent, when I bartended, I was sometimes mistaken for a Russian. Some guy went off on a racist rant once. I said "Yeah, I'm a fuckin' Russian, and I hope my grandfather killed your grandfather in the Winter War." Fifty people sitting there. There was one group gasp and then you could have heard a pin drop. He ran away, I suppose afraid I would kill him. DO you read Halla-aho's Scripta? I read hundreds of pages of it as research for Helsinki White.

But I DO understand. I upset him deeply, as I intended. I promise you I've spent so much time investigating the subject matter that I'm better versed in it than 95% of Finns. See? It even pissed you off. I read Halla-aho for research, not pleasure, because I wrote a book about Finnish racism. I suggest you GET interested because the right-wing hate groups are growing like wildfire. We're only a few signatures away from having a Nazi party, for instance.

Fizzycola wrote: "I don't read stuff like that. Racism is an illness, I'm not interested.

But your "joke" about being a Russian was simply stupid and ignorant. "I hope my grandfather killed your grandfather in the ..."

Fizzycola..I disagree with you. Racism is not an illness. It is a character defect. I think society in general places too many "poor behaviors" as "illnesses" thereby decreasing the "significance" of how people react to it and minimizing the "racists" actions. I really think Jim just gave an excellent example of this with the comment re: the Nazi Party. I assume that would mean that a Nazi candidate could run on an election ticket, JIm? I also think that sometimes one has to confront racism head on and sometimes the racist is too "stupid" to see it any other way.

I am a former addictions counselor and I shake my head at how many things society has now labeled as "addictions" or illness and using the term flippantly. I don't see racism in any medical diagnosis tool and certainly don't see it in the DSM.

Fizzycola wrote: "Lol well. That was just my way to say that personally I find racism totally sick.

And when it comes to a Nazi Party in Finland... I'll believe it when I see it. The peace treaty after WWII include..."

But I think that is what Jim was saying..they are close to getting those numbers..As for what you had mentioned re: the treaty, it is very easy to "clense" your mission statement, etc and do word play as to what an organization stands for...they have marketing people who specialize in doing just that.

I guess I always look at it that you need to be vigilant re: these types of groups. You can never say that they couldn't come back to power or be in some governing role...I always think if the "pressure cooker" called society is just right..they could.

Also, I don't know if you were making a generality in a comment that you made to Jim, but Lucifer's Tears is specifically about these groups in Finland. What Jim, I think a year before the book came out, on facebook, you were talking about the research you were doing for the book and the number of sources you had been talking to right?

Fizzycola wrote: "...

And when it comes to a Nazi Party in Finland... I'll believe it when I see it. The peace treaty after WWII include..."

Isn't this what they said about Hitler in Germany, Poland, France etc...? By the time that they "saw" it, the number of Jews that had been slaughtered and held in camps were in the millions.

Exactly, Pam...And as the old saying goes..history is doomed to repeat itself if you don't learn from it...

i've been following both sides of this conversation and see where the different view points are coming from.

The way I see it, i think Jim has that unique perspective of being an outsider in such as isolationist type culture whereas Fizzy grew up there and so potenially has a greater potential for bias towards your homeland and how you were raised - you might not even acknowledge it, but it is there. But Jim has lived in Finland for close to 12 years now (correct me if i'm wrong) - so I would assume that he probably has a good insight into the politics of the area

Both LT and SA are fictional stories..I don't believe there were any opinions to be had about the country..Are you saying violent crime doesn't occur in Finland? I would find that to be naive if that is what you are saying. Also, Jim has lived in Finland for numerous, numerous years, so I do believe he has some insight. Also, are you saying that YOUR interpretation of history, Finland and Finnish political systems is correct and that everyone elses is wrong. I think that is not only closed minded, but dangerous. Your statement actually just made my point of how history can be doomed to repeat itself.

LOL nope, not everyone else is wrong. And yes, of course I'm biased. I think everyone loves their own country.

There is violent crime in Finland, of course there is. Every country in the world has violent crime, we are no exception. Men stab their wives, women stab their husbands, drug addicts kill for a fix... stuff like that. We even have had a couple of tragic school shootings. Yet, the streets are reasonably safe, we let our kids walk or ride bike to school. That's more than many countries can claim.

There is good and bad in every country. Finland is not more racist than many other countries in Europe today. That's something that just happens now in this part of the world. Only in Austria and Denmark they had a brief spell in the Government but even that's in the past now. If you don't count Berlusconi into that lot.

All in all, Finland isn't better or worse than other countries. Just different maybe.

I must say though, Fizzy..JMO..it seems like you are coming off as demeaning to others in some of your statements..I don't know if it is intentional or not, but it seemed like you were attacking Jim for some of the stuff he was saying and not being born in Finland..and some other statements.

I guess Dee would have gotten the ringer prize for her posting in that people come in from different viewpoints and those view points should be respected and not put down.

As I said, JMO of where I see things..I don't know if you intentionally meant to do it or not..but that was just my feeling from the posts.

First of all, you must remember I'm operating in a foreign language. Sometimes my choice of words might not be the best possible.

Secondly, I wasn't attacking Jim, I was criticising his book and the picture he gives of us Finns in it. I don't think it's accurate. I didn't like the book - too violent for my taste. And I DO get angry when anyone, ANYONE at all, makes false accusations of racism and hate speech and such.

Besides, respecting all opinions just doesn't work. I can never, never, never respect opinions that make some people or groups of people less worthy than others. Racism, in one word.

First off, no one, here is condoning racism. I don't even see Jim doing it and that is what you are accusing him of.

Now, I can tell you that I have read BOTH Jim's books and nowhere in there, do I see him in his storylines condoning racism..quite the opposite. Also, if you looked at his facebook page and read his blog, you would have seen how much it disgusted him. Nor do I see him painting a poor picture of Finnish people.

If you don't like Jim's writing that is fine..to each his/her own. I am sure Jim understands that, as well.

Finally, my question to you would be "who are you to be the judge of what makes others less worthy?" You make some really nasty comments re: foreigners coming into Finland. Does that make your opinion any less worthy? Again, by no means am I condoning racism, but normally what I find are those who are less respectful of others opinions are more poorly educated(which comes in many ways both formally/informally) than they are purported to be. To me, I must say (IMO) it seems that your attacking of Jim on this thread is really coming off your bias against him as a foreigner to Finland. Again, JMO.

Again, you made a comment re: how would Jim feel if someone made a joke re: Japanese killing his father (or something along those lines) and that Jim doesn't understand the "centuries of oppression" and such. Again, to me that is a racist comment because you are painting all Russians with a broad paint brush instead of looking at individuals for who they are...For example, my grandparents came to the US in the early and mid 1900's..with your thought process, I should hate all the English because their government "oppressed" my ancestors to the point of death/starvation. Nothing is further from the truth..It is a country I can't wait to get to and hang out in the country-side.

On a final note, you posted a comment earlier in this thread which "painted Swedish men" as all being gay. Is that not being racist? When Ken attempted to call you on it in a very congenial way, you "attacked" him in your response to him, by alledging that he though "being gay wasn't nice"..In reality, it appears he was calling you on what could have been a racist statement. I am sure Ken can defend himself, I am just calling it the way I interpretted it.