Rothfussians discussion

What did that scene mean to you before you read A Wise Man's Fear?

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Frankly, I'm not well equipped to answer this myself. I heard about the series and read the first two books back to back when the second came out, but it's been a few months since I looked at either. Activity on these forums has brought me back. And now I'm wondering about the significance of that scene. Why do you suppose Rothfuss included it in that manner? What impact did it have on your experience of the story?

reminder of the scene
On the equivalent of a Christmas festival, a kind man saves young Kvothe's life by giving him some money, and I believe this money is what enables Kvothe to make his way to the University. The interesting thing is that this man is dresses as (I believe) Encanis.

Maybe its for us to grow a fondness for the demon so that it turns out to be ironic if he actually does encounter encanis...

I actually haven´t paid attention to this scene in particular. But now that you said that, it fits with my perception that Encanis was not that bad, and Tehlu not that good. Tehlu sayings always scared me, he seems a very punishing god.

Exactly... i think Pat wants us to like Encanis and hate Tehlu... wasnt there something about him talking to a God? hint hint.

I didn't get that impression at all. My feeling is that Rothfuss is just being economical. We are learning something about the world and its mythology while also driving along the plot. Personally I never transferred my feeling towards the person costumed as Encanis to Encanis itself, and I'm not sure why you would---liking a girl costumed as the devil doesn't make you into a Satanist, or even lead you in that direction.

The story of Encanis being bound to the iron wheel makes Tehlu seem like a hardass, but that story surely doesn't make Encanis look good either.

Yeah but Pat talks about him howling with pain and Tehlu being some sick annoying bastard...

I share Mike's feelings, that we're just getting some mythology. But my logical mind won't let it rest at that. Perhaps it's too eager to look for conspiracy theories. And of course I love it when the bad guy is an admirable bad guy.

"Wherever Tehlu stopped to offer men the choice of path, Encanis had been there just before, killing crops and poisoning wells. Encanis, setting men to murder one another and stealing children from their beds at night."

"Encanis ran free and did the work of a thousand demons, destroying and despoiling wherever he went."

"Knowing he was pursued, Encanis came to a great city. The Lord of Demons called forth his power and the city was brought to ruin." He did this hoping Tehlu would delay so he could make his escape, but the Walking God paused only to appoint priests who cared for the people of the ruined town.

For six days Encanis fled, and six great cities he destroyed. But on the seventh day, Tehlu drew near before Encanis could bring his power to bear and the seventh city was saved. That is why seven is a lucky number and why we celebrate Caenin."

"'My path then!' Encanis shrieked. 'I do not regret! If I had my choice again, I would only change how fast I ran. Your people are like cattle my kind feed on! Bite and break you, if you gave me half an hour I would do such things that these wretched gawping peasants would go mad with fear. I would drink their children's blood and bathe in women's tears.'"

Is this the story that is supposed to make us dislike Tehlu and like Encanis?

@ liking Encanis and disliking Tehlu

1 - stories are but stories. Truth is sometimes different. In Kvothe's experience, a man costumed as Encanis saved his life in a city where the Tehlu's priesthood was corrupt and secretive.

2 - There's the story of Tehlu's birth to a virgin mother. Upon growth to adulthood, he basically baptizes people by smashing them in the face...Hm, perhaps not dissimilar to what Denna's Master puts her through. I'm now wondering if Denna's patron might be some zealous follower of Tehlu...who's somehow on the side of the Chandrian? Best I rest, before my imagination runs away with me.

3. And heck. Tehlu. Cthulu. Similar?

i dont know... but i think there is definite favoritism towards encanis... yeah, mike i see your quotes... but i still... plus i think that the resemblence to tehlu and taborlin the great are like an alter ego-- like the good side of Kvothe, and encanis like the bad side... Kvothe chooses his own path, he refuses to just believe... he traps the dragon under an iron wheel, he gets the key, the candle, and the whatever else it is--i cant remember...

Hmm,
This part of the story always really stood out to me because, in my opinion, it really didnt drive the plot that much. It seemed absolutely random to me, thus causing me to think it may be of some importance.

Do we even get the information about Encanis from this meeting? I dont recall that. I thought this was all covered by Trapis? I hope I'm not getting confused, dont have my book with me at the moment.

At first I really didnt get this part, but the further in the book I made it the more I thought that it was a foreshadow. I have this feeling that Lanre/Haliax, isnt going to be so bad as Kvothe thinks he is, like his story just got blown way up and turned into this awful thing. I mean, think about Tehlu as Selitos and Haliax as Encanis. The stories do line up rather well, maybe too well.

Not to mention the story of Encanis could have easily been warped by the Tehlin Church to further indoctrinate the masses. I feel like maybe the Chandrian arent all that bad...I mean seven is a lucky number right?

Maybe the Chandrian are just trying to destroy the disinformation about themselves that the Tehlin Church puts forth and in order to successfully make sure said disinformation isnt carried forward, they kill the people who spread it. Is this evil? I think that would be subjective to which side you are on. I mean, these people would happily kill the Chandrian, would they not, simply due to said indoctrination? No questions would be asked! Are the Chandrians lives worth less than any other lives?

I've noticed Pat seems to like to toy with ethical boundaries, trying to make you see that morals are really set by cultural compass....

Also, If you take out the killing in the story of Encanis (which could have been exaggerated, or even done justly for all we know) he seems to be trying to get people to think for themselves to me. He chooses his own path instead of having his path laid out for him by someone else.

I dont know, maybe I've been reading too much Goodkind lately, but Encanis could easily by compared to Richard Rahl, who is the main protagnist of SOT.

I think having Encanis give Kvothe a hand up is just a small moment to help the reader see that just because everyone says something is bad...doesnt mean you shouldnt form your own educated opinion on it, and doesnt necessarily mean its correct.

If things went that way, the world would still be flat.

Hope that made some sense.

I've seen a lot of theories about the Chandrian not being all that bad, but regardless of their actual moral standing they still killed the protagonists family. Whether it was, somehow, an Amyr-like 'for the greater good' or not, subjectively they are still the evil of the story thus far...

While there's a lot of moral ambiguity in the story, with the slaughter of the wedding party, Kvothe's family, and the involvement with the highwaymen it is hard to imagine that the Chandrian aren't possessed of mostly selfish drive and goals.

I think that's the twist. They're changing the story. Whether Tehlins or Chandrains, the story is changing. 7 cities with forgotten names. Only one was saved. It sounds like the Encanis story is over time being turned to make him look like the victim just like Denna's song about Lanre makes him look betrayed. The betrayer becomes the betrayed. The enemy looks like the victim. How curiously chewy and freakishly valid.

Thomas wrote: "While there's a lot of moral ambiguity in the story, with the slaughter of the wedding party, Kvothe's family, and the involvement with the highwaymen it is hard to imagine that the Chandrian aren't possessed of mostly selfish drive and goals.

"

I suppose. I dont necessarily believe all this stuff, its just ideas I get a long the way.

But for the sake of argument LOL

Slaughtering the wedding party and Kvothe troupe is pretty harsh and cold, but if this were for the greater good of existance they would be small prices to pay.

And being with highwaymen who steal the kings taxes doesnt necessarily mean you are evil. Robin Hood would steal from the Sherriff all the time, and in like fashion.


Though I do agree Cinder, the only chandrian we've had any real interaction with, seemed pretty bad and not a bit remorseful.

Coming back to this after some time -

I've recently seen a lot of speculation that the inspiration for Encanis was actually Haliax.

If thats true, this could be a tricky little foreshadow.

Maybe the chandrian are all bad except Haliax - from what I remember he mostly just seemed tired and wanting to get things done with already.

Two things:
1. “If they find us here with him they’ll assume we did it” is what the other person says to Encanis.
2. Kvothe has not, to this point, seen the Chandrian actually kill anyone.

Rachel wrote: "I don't know about that. He sounded like a pretty awful guy to me. He was tired, so he decided to destroy the world?"

I dont know - I've thought about this some myself. Like Tyler said, Kvothe didnt witness the killing. Not to mention, we cant say for certain the chandrian are about "destroying the world" it seems that after 1000's of years, they've had little success if that was their ACTUAL intent. Stories in the Rothfuss world arent always perfect fact. I mean, Kvothe even finds a rhyme in the archives that talks about the Chandrian being good. (I'll have to look it up again and post it when I'm back near the book)

To give the idea a twist - say that some sect put out a bunch of disinformation about you and some of your friends because they didnt like you or something that you were to trying to say to the masses, so they put out so much disinformation, that people started hating you and your friends and trying to kill you everytime you go somewhere to just chill out and relax. If they werent trying to kill you, they were so afraid they just ran in fear - you couldnt even get decent service anymore. What would you do? Would you try to go around and destroy that disinformation, would you fight back against people who let that disinformation sway them into attacking you? For all we know the Chandrian are trying to protect their own lives. Maybe a selfish way to go about it - but they way I see it they could really just be regular guys that got screwed over and my first option would be to preserve my life as well. Not to mention - imagine a few thousand years of this and the extreme progression of PTSD that would result in, especially in a world with little to no psychotherapy -

I actually have it handy, I have my highlights page open
"The Chandrian move from place to place, But they never leave a trace. They hold their secrets very tight, But they never scratch and they never bite. They never fight and they never fuss. In fact they are quite nice to us. They come and they go in the blink of an eye, Like a bright bolt of lightning out of the sky."

Thank you! Thats exactly what I was talking about.

In addition - I just wanted to add. The chandrian could really think they are killing these people for the greater good.

Its sort of like that flesh eating bacteria - once it starts eating away your flesh, Doctors dont really know what to do, so to stop it from spreading, they cut off the infected area.

If the chandrian didnt kill ALL the people who hear and spread disinformation about them, it would never stop the spread of it, and thus they would never ever be able to find a place to call home, or lead normal lives at all. Since they are seemingly immortal, killing the amount of people we've even read about, probably seems a small price to them really.


I'm not saying its right - but its an ethical boundry that could go either way depending on perspective.

There is no way that the Chandrian are good. I like the theory but there is just no way. They kill Kvothe's family, threaten to kill him, show up at Trebon and kill. They kill kill kill. I don't see it. I could be wrong though.

Kvothe kills people too, but we spend more time with him so he doesnt seem like a bad guy.

Just because all the scenes we see them in they are seemingly killing people, doesnt make them bad necessarily. I mean, we dont know what they are doing in their free time, we've only had a few select encounters with them.

I mean - to draw from another series I've read, in Sword of Truth, the main protagnist is constantly murdering people, he even commands the murder of civilians at one point in the series, but he is still counted as the "good guy."

I just cant help but think its not in line with Haliax's character to form a group to go around destroying information about said group so that they cannot be defeated.

The whole point of Haliax going from city to city causing mass destruction was to coax out a REAL hero that could kill him - because all he wanted was to die and be with Lyra. Being alive is a curse to him. In my opinion, it seemed like he thought he was being merciful when he told Cinder to just kill Kvothe already and stop messing with his head. I mean, thats really all that Haliax ever wanted, since he couldnt bring Lyra back - is to go to her. Arguably you could say he thought killing Kvothe would be like reuniting him with his family.

I mean - think about it, really the families of the bandits that Kvothe kills could look at him in the same manner if you reverse roles. Those bandits werent really robbing civilians if I remember correctly - they were only robbing the tax collectors...

I dont know if I fully agree with the idea, but I dont feel like it can just be ruled out. I can see the opposite side of this story. I mean - Kvothe's family could have been spreading vicious lies about the chandrian for all we know, lies that could renew a fear and hatred of them that endangered their lives, especially if Arliden took the time to research information about them that could point to their identities and leave them in a difficult defensive position.

Or for all we know - it didnt have anything to do with songs and the chandrian always keep tabs on Lackless' even when they change their names -

I find it suspicious that, if Kvothe's mother really is the Lackless Heir, which seems pretty well founded - she thought it was a great idea to make a song about the chandrian, which seem to have some sort of connection to her family that I cant imagine she would miss, being as smart as her character seemingly is.

Amber wrote: "Kvothe kills people too, but we spend more time with him so he doesnt seem like a bad guy."

Quote:

“Some are even saying that there is a new Chandrian. A fresh terror in the night. His hair as red as the blood he spills.”
“The important people know the difference,” Kote said as if he were trying to convince himself, but his voice was weary and despairing, without conviction.

My point exactly -

For all we know Cinder is freakin' Robin Hood.

We really dont have all that much "for sure" information on the chandrian.

The more I think about it - the more I kind of like this theory.

haha that would be a crazy twist to the story

Exactly Rachel - its quite similar to a lot of religious persecution that happens in our world. Good example.

I'm not sure if the Amyr are good or bad. They probably think they are good, but from what I've read of them, I certainly wouldnt want one around me. Didnt some of the later Amyr or travelling judges practice absolute law, like burning down houses with people in them because they judged them to be evil?

That sounds like a shit justice to me. I feel like there is real possibility Selitos and the amyr are actually tyrannical misrepresented leaders. I dont know to what level - obviously we have so little information on the subject - but I just keep getting this vibe things with the Chandrian arent what they blatantly seem. It could really be very Indian vs Puritans. Two sects of diverging beliefs that arent inherently evil by themselves, but when put together cause a huge rift and disagreement.

I also am anticipating the next book, but I just want it to be perfect - so I dont really care how long it takes.

Plus I love speculating on it, I hope I at least get a few "I KNEW IT!" moments when I finally get it. As soon as I know the release date - I'm scheduling my vacation time around it, picking the book up at midnight even if I have to stand in line all day, and reading it non-stop cover to cover probably at least twice, just to soak it all in.

LOL.

But yah - think about that chandrian thing when you are reading again, maybe you will pick up on something to prove or disprove the theory.

Amber:"I think having Encanis give Kvothe a hand up is just a small moment to help the reader see that just because everyone says something is bad...doesnt mean you shouldnt form your own educated opinion on it, and doesnt necessarily mean its correct."

I find myself agreeing with you more often then not. Perhaps IF that was Encanis helping Kvothe it wasn't an act of kindness but a deliberate action to facilitate the destruction Kvothe would bring in the future.


Also, I can not agree the 7 are good. After the death of Kvothes Family (when they were talking together) they wewre not talking as noble or ethical giants. Corrupt scum to me.

Heck, for all we know the person dressed as Encanis was one of Kvothe's cohort from the University having fun on a break after testing. Maybe even Ambrose, a fact that could arise later, causing Kvothe to struggle with his perception of Ambrose, causing regrets over some extreme revenge that Kvothe may exact in the next book.

Or maybe the Encanis scene was meant to do nothing more than provide a way to extricate Kvothe from the aftermath of a hard life lesson about guards and rich districts whilst providing an introduction to part of the mythology.

Tarbean is pretty far away from the university I thought...
But you do have a point. It could have been anyone really - we dont know who it was, we have no way of proving or saying who it was.

thats not really the point though is it?

I saw it as a metaphor sort of. I mean Encanis is likened to Haliax a good deal throughout the story.

Actually, we know the name of Encanis in Tarbean - it was Gerrek and his companion was called Holly. Given that they were concerned about the crowds behind them and they were clearly part of the festivities it seems likely that they were just normal decent people.

ha ha ha -

Did you just check your book :)

LOL. Thats awesome.

I totally forgot that - but now that you said it, I do remember that coming up. And I agree with you. They're probably just randoms. Who is the girl supposed to be? Does it by chance say that, I'm at the office so...no book to look through at the moment.

Paolo wrote: "Actually, we know the name of Encanis in Tarbean - it was Gerrek and his companion was called Holly. Given that they were concerned about the crowds behind them and they were clearly part of the fe..."

I thought it was an important scene because it showed somebody who was not what he appeared, and then juxtaposed that with Encanis.

You don't have to know what it means to appreciate significance.

I totally checked the book! Luckily it fell open to the right page. I only just read the two books (back to back) and I can honestly say that they are the books wish I could have written if I had the talent.

The girl is also dressed as a demon, with a livid green mask - no name associated.

Eric wrote: "You don't have to know what it means to appreciate significance."

True, but can it be considered significant if you haven't understood the meaning? We may be reading way to much meaning into something that actually has significance that has not yet been realised - for example, this scene's significance may be about providing a character reference for the reappearance of Gerrek in book 3... or not.

Paolo wrote: "Eric wrote: "You don't have to know what it means to appreciate significance."

True, but can it be considered significant if you haven't understood the meaning? We may be reading way to much meani..."

The books are riddled with symbolism and parallels, so I agree you can't be sure. But more than one of us felt this story was significant, so I'm content to continue scouring it for clues every time I reach that part of the book.

A gut feeling is all I really have to offer. But, the desire for knowledge shapes a man. And this scene has certainly impacted the way that I've interpreted other parts of the books (maybe not directly, but it did help me consider alternate possibilities).

Eric wrote: "I thought it was an important scene because it showed somebody who was not what he appeared, and then juxtaposed that with Encanis"

This is along the lines of what I was thinking also.

Like sometimes things arent what they seem. Maybe the connotation of something like Encanis is negative, but whether it that is actually correct or not is up for debate.

Amber wrote: "This is along the lines of what I was thinking also.

Like sometimes things arent what they seem. Maybe the connotation of something like Encanis is negative, but whether it that is actually correct or not is up for debate."

That's how I took it. It was an early warning that the teachings of the church might not be entirely accurate. Which is why I read any chapter with the word 'pagan' in it about 12 times in a row. Anything the church doesn't approve of would be considered Pagan, and since we know their religion is partially a farce anyway, it seems important to not dismiss those scenes.

Agree x 1000

Speaking of which...this is totally off subject but were there rumors about Bredon being a pagan? Or did I just imagine that?

Anyway, back on subject.

This whole scene is what inspired me to start thinking maybe the chandrian werent ALL bad and that maybe Denna's song was a little more correct than Kvothe knew.

Yes, It was in one of the letters the rumor mongers sent to Kvothe just before he left the maer's service... he returns it to Bredon, then has the rest published by the seedy publisher.

Amber wrote: "This whole scene is what inspired me to start thinking maybe the chandrian werent ALL bad and that maybe Denna's song was a little more correct than Kvothe knew. "
I think it's important to remember that Kvothe is the one telling the story and he will be colouring things to fit the perceptions he holds. If a human character like Ambrose can come across as entirely bad, it suggests that Kvothe is trying to justify his later actions by selectively recalling only the bad things his enemy does whilst downplaying and providing justification for his own questionable deeds. History is written by the victor and all that.

The same is no doubt true for the Chandrian, given that they butchered his family and intended to kill him, Kvothe has all the moral ammunition he needs to paint them in a purely negative light and he is unlikely to have any sympathy for them, regardless of moral ambiguity. However, I don't think the Encanis scene really contributes much to the moral perspective issue. We're told before we meet Gerrek and Holly that the celebration has masked people running around pretending to be demons and that they are only meant to be causing small mischief until they are banished by using Tehlu's name. The fact that the masked people usually play by the rules marks them as non-malign. Therefore by granting aid to the injured Kvothe the most that happens is that Gerrek is identified as benign and Holly maintains a non-malign character as she's reluctant to get involved, but doesn't refuse to do so. I don't really see this as having any bearing on the Chandrian myself, but each to their own interpretation!

Paolo - agree and dont agree LOL.

I agree that we should take the perspective of Kvothe into consideration while reading the story.

Just because the Chandrian killed Kvothe's parents doesnt necessarily make them bad. Kvothe kills people too, in the minds of those peoples family he's probably just as abhorent.

I mean - he was in Severen protecting Tax Collectors of all freakin' sorts, even if it was by order of the Maer.

I guess what I'm trying to say with the Encanis part is I saw it like a metaphor (I think thats the right word) or a possible foreshadow. I realize that literally this was not Encanis - this was some actor named Gerrek, but he was dressed as Encanis and was supposed to be causing mischief as Encanis and Kvothe wasnt exactly the sort most people were willing to try and assist. I've noticed a lot of parallels between Encanis and Haliax which is what linked them in my mind. But aside from that - its the parallel of a bad guy helping someone weak, injured, and discarded from society. I realize that Garrek is not a bad guy - but Encanis is supposed to be - and if you were to witness the scene from the outside perspective you would see Encanis, not Garrek.


Which sort of has me thinking how people see Haliax and not Lanre...but thats a thought process I'm going to have to think on for a while since I've only thought it up about 7 seconds ago.

I hope these discussions keep up until 'doors of stone' is released... is it still set for may 2013?

Amber wrote: "Just because the Chandrian killed Kvothe's parents doesnt necessarily make them bad. Kvothe kills people too, in the minds of those peoples family he's probably just as abhorent.

I mean - he was in Severen protecting Tax Collectors of all freakin' sorts, even if it was by order of the Maer."

Hmm, the Chandrian killed Kvothe's parents and their entire troupe for singing a song. The troupe were entirely benign, never perpetrating any violence that we are aware of. They killed an entire wedding party for finding a vase with their picture on it. If we define 'bad' as murdering innocent people, I think we can fairly confidently consider them to be bad.

Those acts are not directly comparable with killing a gang of bandits who have been robbing and killing people on the road, even if those people are tax collectors. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Killing the guilty isn't necessarily good, but it can't be considered bad in the same way as killing innocents should be.

Servius Heiner wrote: "I hope these discussions keep up until 'doors of stone' is released... is it still set for may 2013?"

No it's not. 2013-2025 Pat changed it himself.



@ Paolo
I've had this discussion a couple of times now - this is why I dont think its appropriate to jump to the conclusion that the Chandrian are bad - even though thats obviously what Pat is trying to make the reader do. (I also admit I may be reading way to much into this, LOL)

This is really a battle of morals and ethics I think, which is a rough territory to work on since Good and Bad are really subjective things culturally.

The Chandrian may have killed Kvothe's troupe and the wedding party, but I think it's plausible that the Chandrian do this to protect themselves, in a way at least. The Chandrian are obviously, for some reason, seeking out information about themselves and destroying it. I think a lot of people think this is because they want to be all powerful or something along those lines, but I'm not inclined to believe that.

See - Haliax is their leader, so I think its safe to say, he's calling the shots. Haliax doesnt want to be all powerful (he practically already is) Haliax wants to be dead. So essentially it wouldnt make sense for him to go around destroying information that might actually lead to that occurance. I think what they are destroying is actually disinformation about themselves.

Notice they're not about murdering Adem - and they've had that information on them for years. Conceivably long enough to take notice.

So Arliden's song may have actually been full of incorrect information that leads to the direct harm of the Chandrian - or persecution of them. Since they're already personified as villians. This is thousands of years after the Chandrian are created after unguessible circumstances. All we have to go off is Skarpi's half story and we dont really know how accurate that is. If Arliden's song could have plausibly reached 1000's of people and got them to thinking about the Chandrian again (something a lot of people really dont take very seriously at this point historically) that could potentially be an extreme threat to a Chandrian.

I think its better thought about in context of yourself. (This is about to get very conspiracy theory...prepare yourself LOL) Imagine this - You and some of your friends get some sort of information about the Government, information the Government doesnt want released to civilians. You decide that they cant stop you from releasing it and they agree they can't stop you, but they can threaten you and discredit you. (We're going to assume they cant kill you because that's very Haliax) So the Goernment spreads mass lies and misinformation about the character of you and your friends, everytime you try to buy a beer some guy recognizes you and wants to fight, you suddenly cant get a room at any inn, no one wants to help you out - you're a total dick, but in reality you are the only person who knows some important, life changing info and no one will listen to you.

So eventually 1000's of years go by and your hoping that eventually you'll be able to spill the beans on whatever this info is, because people are forgetting that crap and alot of the problem people you knew then are dead. Except everytime shit starts going right and you think you finally have a chance at getting this info out, some asshole writes a song about how your a total jerk off. Or finds a mysterious artifact relating the tale of your suckness. Eventually you're going to get fed up with that and start dissolving the problem...for the greater good.

I'm not saying it IS right. I'm just saying to think about it from that perspective. The Chandrian have literally been persecuted for 1000's of years, wouldnt you eventually strike out against your own persecuters? I mean, we dont know exactly what went down when Kvothe's family was killed or the wedding party - they easily could have been first to attack if the Chandrian came about all magic style. Not to mention - words are weapons, thats been made pretty clear through out the novels and so is artwork. Maybe not a sword in hand, but information can be a powerful tool, depictions of them, could literally identify who they were, especially if they were on the down low and trying to blend into society. The chandrian can't go anywhere. They're stuck on this world, if things go bad for them, they dont really have an out.


I hope that makes sense - I explain it better somewhere else, but I'm just tired right now. I could argue the point, but a back in forth set up seems a little better at the moment.

good analogy. Words are weapons got me thinking: if a namer knew the true names of all the chandrian, wouldn't they have control over them? This could cause them to kill innocent lives. Remember what Kvothe did to Felurian? And I think he only had a piece of her name or else he could have killed her. I don't know if I agree with the theory yet but I am starting to warm up to it.

I like that idea Scans - I think it's worth exploring. Never thought about it myself, but I think I will now.

On another note - about the Chandrian not being all bad. If Lyra were killed by someone because they wanted to underhand Lanre/Haliax, that could be a whole new reason for why he went nuts.

I mean - I think a lot of parallels are drawn between Lanre and Kvothe and that seems like a directional build for Kvothe/Kote (Notice they both change their names also...)


Sorry, on re read this seems sort of out of left feild...but, eh...whatever.

Let's look at what we know about the actions of the Chandrian from Kvothe's first experience with them.

First of all there's a possibility that the place where Arliden's troupe were slaughtered was deliberately set up. There was a large tree across the road that Arliden is surprised has not been cleared since the storm 16 days earlier. This may mean the Chandrian had been hunting them (perhaps since Arliden performs the first verse at Abenthy's leaving party) and laid an ambush. The tree may just be coincidence, since they comment about others they've encountered, but it's worthy of note.

The Chandrian killed the whole troupe, except Kvothe. It appears that they even attacked the horses, since the horse hitched to Kvothe's family's wagon dies after dragging the wagon 100 yards. I'm not sure what the horse would be capable of doing to threaten the Chandrian. This makes me think that the Chandrian are not only looking out for themselves - they just seem nasty.

Haliax's comment to Cinder when he's toying with Kvothe also suggests that the Chandrian are genuinely malign and not just defending themselves: "...You are too fond of your little cruelties. All of you." Now I will agree that the Chandrian and Haliax may be silencing people for their own protection, but such actions do not require cruelty and it says something that Haliax disapproves of it. It is here we come to something interesting.

Haliax does not interfere with the taunting of Kvothe until Cinder says "Someone's parents have been singing entirely the wrong sort of songs" at which point Haliax quickly reprimands Cinder. This suggests that Cinder has let slip something important in his comment. This is then built on when Haliax says "Who keeps you safe from the Amyr? The singers? [my emphasis - note lack of capitalisation] The Sithe? From all that would harm you in the world?".

It may be that any songs of Lanre and the Chandrian pose a threat or it may be particular band of singers - although the lack of a capital suggests the former. But if that is the case, how comes Denna seems able to sing about Lanre without invoking the wrath of the Chandrian?

My guess would be that her patron is one of the Chandrian (mysterious figure, won't give a name, comes and goes without warning, practices 'little cruelties' on Denna, was present the night the Chandrian slaughtered the wedding party, etc.). Alternatively, it may be that Haliax and the Chandrian don't mind songs that paint them in a positive light or perhaps they don't care about songs at all - it may be that the Chandrian are actually committing atrocities as they search for something - as Haliax says "... Some of you seem to have forgotten what it is we seek, what we wish to achieve". If they are looking for something it may be that Kvothe's troupe were attacked because of the Lackless link - they may have been looking for the lockless box. They may also have killed the wedding party for the vase not because it had their image, but because it contained something or had certain properties. I think there are too many variables for the time being to be sure, but one thing we do know is that the Chandrian are cruel and even if they are killing to protect themselves they enjoy it far too much for them to not be considered bad. Haliax may be a slightly different story, since he doesn't revel in the killing.

Man...I want to disagree so bad, but that closing argument was pretty brilliant.

I never thought of it quite like that before. I still dont think the Selitos story went quite like Skarpi said - but to think the Chandrian were possibly after Kvothe's troup just to get at his mother (due to a Lackless connection) is almost too lovely and clever a situation to shrug off.

Nice.

And I dont think its overreaching to speculate that their was something in the vase they might want. I mean - I've been all for this Chandrian as "good" guys theory for a while, and I still think its a nice point to argue the possiblity of ethics from, but...I admit, this is a much cleaner theory.

For some time now I've been sort of keen on the idea that Cinder is Denna's patron. (I'm not for Cinder-Bredon-Master Ash theory but Master Ash-Cinder seems okay to me) Cinder/Ash it fits well enough. Not to mention right before she scores a Patron she is seen by Deoch hanging out with a white haired man (very Cinder-esque) and only after Kvothe fights the Bandits and shoots Cinder in the leg - does Denna get beat with a cane. (That was new...) Not to mention - seems sort of weird for the Cthaeh to jump from Chandrian to Denna without their being any connection....doesnt Cthaeh have a personal vendetta for a certain chandrian (coughCINDERcough)


I love it. Beautifully thought out.

I like the Cinder-Master Ash idea. Of course, Master Ash was an accidental name picked by Kvothe, but then the name Kvothe picked for the horse he bought was accidental and it was surprisingly close to the truth. I have a feeling Kvothe has an affinity for finding names...

Oh man - I completely agree with that. Anytime Kvothe names something I pay attention.

Dont forget - it wasnt until Elodin heard Auri's "new name" from Kvothe that he was suddenly aloud in his class as well.

So their are a few examples of how innate that ability is in him. I wouldnt doubt if Master Ash was some how closely related to whomever is Denna's patron - it did seem to surprise her when he chose that name.


Overall though - I think you have a strong theory. Maybe that is why Kote doesnt care all that much about saying their names over and over. He may know at this point that calling their names is never what made the problem, all along they were just after something of his mothers and it was coincidence that they'd been singing that song.

although the Adem seem pretty religious on that matter...I dont know how reliable that is though.