Victorians! discussion

For discussing chapters 11-20 in Daniel Deronda. If you have not completed these chapters, be aware there may be spoilers posted here.

I was just re-reading these chapters and now realize that Daniel's story does a long flashback starting in Chapter 16 right after Daniel meets Grandcourt at the Casino (Gwen has already returned home). In this case the flashback is even more subtle. Just thought I would mention it. This book is almost post-modernist in its jumpiness!

I'm sure we'll have an interesting discussion on the Gwendolen-Grandcourt courtship. What a pair ...

I have not finished this section quite yet, but yes, these two seemed to be made for each other. I really can't tell yet who loves who more or who is more bored with the way life is happening.

I don't think love even comes into it if we're talking about Gwen and Grandcourt.

Anne, I meant self love sorry I was not very clear....

One of the things of which I find interesting about Victorian literature is the way they so often use names to impart their own meaning on the characters, or as a sort of satire and irony against the characters. I found some of the names in this story to be quite interesting.

Mr. Grandcourt (is that not the perfect name for him) Mr. Lush, Miss Arrowpoint.

All these names to have been craftily chosen to say something specific about the characters. And so I was quite intrigued by the name Gwendolen which sounded like a sort of fairy tale name to me, so I looked it up and found out that there was a mythical Queen named Gwendolen who defeated her husband in battle and took over the rule of Briton herself.

Wasn't Gwendolyn the wife of King Arthur in the Camelot legend? The one that had an affair with Sir Lancelot?

What I find so appalling is that they both look forward to taking charge after the marriage. And if Gwen is bad, Grandcourt is really a piece of work. Just look at how he treats his poor dog Fetch at the beginning of Chapter 12.

Sorry, King Arthur's wife was Guinevere, of course. Duh.

Bea wrote: "Wasn't Gwendolyn the wife of King Arthur in the Camelot legend? The one that had an affair with Sir Lancelot?

What I find so appalling is that they both look forward to taking charge after the ma..."

King Arthur was married to Guinevere.

I have to admit that in a time in which women had very little hope for having any sort of equal partnership in marriage I cannot blame her for wanting to try and establish a dominating role within her own marriage in order to avoid being dominated by her husband.

For unless a woman gets lucky to marry an unusually liberal minded man, it is either to try and find some way to take control in the marriage or be forced into submission.

Bea wrote: "Sorry, King Arthur's wife was Guinevere, of course. Duh."

LOL yeah you posted as I was still typing

I wouldn't blame any woman for trying to maintain her independence after marriage or even for trying to get the upper hand. We are agreed on that.

The problem is that Gwen is so supremely confident in her powers, and so inexperienced - she's only 20.

Bea wrote: "I wouldn't blame any woman for trying to maintain her independence after marriage or even for trying to get the upper hand. We are agreed on that.

The problem is that Gwen is so supremely confide..."

While her great confidence in herself might prove to her folly as events unfold I do not see it as persea being a "bad" thing.

Meaning that I do not think that being overconfident or a bit arrogant makes her a bad person, though it might work against her.

But my remarks were geared to your use of the word appalling which to me read as a criticism against Gwen wanting to try and gain the upper hand.

It seems I need a thesaurus or possibly a brain transplant tonight. First Guinevere and now this. And, of course, confidence is not a bad thing.

I had "interesting" before I put "appalling" and I should have left it that way.

I also noted the other big flashback on Daniel's story, and I find the novel extremely modern on this account!
And what about all popes having so many nephews?!!! In Italy we call them sons directly!

I found the first ten chapters a bit of a chore to read. However, the novel has picked up for me and with the addition of Mirah. The book's rhythm has picked up as well as I read Daniel' history and Mirah's introduction. I think Eliot is wonderful in her descriptions of her characters, but can be a bit difficult to follow in her sequencing of the narrative.

I enjoyed reading about Daniel's past and his concern over his parentage. His nature comes through with his care and concern of and for Mirah. She seems to be a pivotal character, one that will make the Jewish element felt. How wonderful that Eliot chose to present her as a pitiful, kind woman and not with the usual Jewish slurs found so commonly in Victorian writings.

This book is a great antidote to Oliver Twist, which I am re-reading with another group.

Because it stuck me as being an unusual name I decided to look up Deronda and though I could not find much about the name one thing I found that I thought was interesting is the meaning of the name Deronda is "good spear"

Not sure where to ask this question, so I'll ask it here. I am reading DD on kindle. I am 43% through, at chapter 32. According to the discussions there are only 31 chapters. Does anyone else have this problem?

Anne wrote: "Not sure where to ask this question, so I'll ask it here. I am reading DD on kindle. I am 43% through, at chapter 32. According to the discussions there are only 31 chapters. Does anyone else h..."

I have not posted all of the chapters for the book yet, I find it is better to do it in sections at a time. Otherwise what tends to happen is people who get ahead, have already read the book or finish early, simply go directly to the last chapters and the other threads do not get much acutal discussion.

Silver wrote: "Anne wrote: "Not sure where to ask this question, so I'll ask it here. I am reading DD on kindle. I am 43% through, at chapter 32. According to the discussions there are only 31 chapters. Does ..."

I was just coming back to edit my question with this thought in mind. You beat me to it. Thank you.

Just finished this section. Hoping it gets better. I'm not one who likes the poor girl stuff, so Mirah is more than a bit of a bore. Will ever Daniel learn his parentage?

Elizabeth, do you think he will find out he has Jewish parentage?

Yes, I do. I like Daniel. This is a quote I liked particularly:

We know he had suffered keenly from the belief that there was a tinge of dishonor in his lot; but there are some cases, and his was one of them, in which the sense of injury breeds--not the will to inflict injuries and climb over them as a ladder, but a hatred of all injury.

Here is another passage, one that, for me, makes reading Eliot such a prize:

The Meyricks had their little oddities, streaks of eccentricity from the mother's blood as well as the father's, their minds being like mediaeval houses with unexpected recesses and openings from this into that, flights of steps and sudden outlooks.


Perhaps I'm a bit eccentric, though I've never thought myself so, nor told that I am. Still, I know that my mind has unexpected recesses and openings from this into that, flights of steps and sudden outlooks.

That is a wonderful passage.

I want to like Daniel, and in the beginning when we did not know much about him he was intriguing, and while I do not dislike him and I do think it will be interesting to see what role he ends up playing in relationship to Gwen, I have to say I found the chapters dealing with his history to be a bit slow. I do not find him as fascinating as Gwen, and part of it is that "good guy" thing with me. The chrachters whom seem too good, are also not very intriguing for me.

With the introduction of Mirah and her own search for her mother and brother and how that relates to Daniel's own questions about his parentage it would be interesting if he discovered that himself was of Jewish origin, particuarly since she is introducing her into that world as it were.

Maybe in trying to help her he will end up finding something out about himself.

As far as Mirah's character goes, while I myself generally do not care for that sort of martyr type, or the spiritual, poor me, the selfless victim characters, but there are asepcts of her that I find to be intriguing, and so I cannot say I completely dislike her at this point, I will have to see how her character develops as the story goes along.

I like Daniel quite a bit. I feel he is presented with qualities that make him a true good human in thought, interaction, and being. He seems selfless unlike Gwen. I find his character a total antithesis to that of Gwen's. She, I think, is attracted to him and he to her. He sees in her a spirit which while he might not admire it, he still finds compelling. She sees in him a dark, quiet nature that draws her in and yet makes her fearful of falling into this element which she can not control.

I really hope he ends up with Mirah. I did not find her a martyr type, just a young woman
who was lost and wandering alone trying to escape from a dreadful father who would
have sold her off to fund his gambling.

I loved this statement..."Men, like planets, have both a visible and invisible history." Certainly, our two main males have that so far.

Marialyce wrote: "I like Daniel quite a bit. I feel he is presented with qualities that make him a true good human in thought, interaction, and being. He seems selfless unlike Gwen. I find his character a total anti..."

Unfortunately for me, Daniel's goodness and selflessness is what tends to make him a bit uninteresting for me. I like characters which have a bit of an edge in them. (And well I do tend to often prefer the Villains over the heroes)

I do rather enjoy the attraction of opposites between Daniel and Gwen, and they in which they are both compelled and repelled by each other. I really like the dynamic and tension between them. And I have to admit I am routing for them to end up together.

I do admire the way in which Mirah had fled from her father, and she is not completely submissive but at the same time, she still comes across as being a bit too pitiful.

Mirah relies too much upon the help and kindness of others, while Gwen relies more upon herself. And while she may not always make the best judgement choices, she does not strike me as the type whom would simply give up but she seems more like the type to take the world by the horns. But Mirah is kind of a wilting flower and not as resilient she cannot withstand the hardships of the world and caves under her sorrow.

I find Gwen the martyr type in the tale. She seems to bemoan her fate especially when she has to consider becoming a governess to "bail out" her family and her mother in particular.

I don't care for her at all and do see her as being somewhat whiney and in total "feel sorry for myself" mode. She has been given her beauty and has used it in various ways. She needs acceptance for that characteristic and while she may take things and mold them as she sees fit, she does so with one objective and that is to get what she wants no matter what. Other than her mother, I see no care or concern for anyone but herself.

I don't know about this considering governess part. I must have missed that.

I don't think Gwendolyn gives a fig about her mother, frankly. Her mother kowtows to her, and she likes people who kowtow to her.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I don't know about this considering governess part. I must have missed that...."

I think that comes a little later in the book.

Marialyce wrote: "I find Gwen the martyr type in the tale. She seems to bemoan her fate especially when she has to consider becoming a governess to "bail out" her family and her mother in particular.

I don't care ..."

To me to be a martyr type you have to be much more self-sacrificing and willing to give up your own happiness and desires for the sake of pleasing others, and submit to the will of others.

She is much too independent and determined. She is not willing to accept the position in life which is expected of her but wants better for herself and is not willing to just give up upon her freedom, and her desires for herself and fall into becoming entrapped in an unsatisfactory life living for others as so many other women at this time do.

She refuses to accept the status quo and believes that a better life does await for her that she is meant for greater things and she will not accept anything less for herself.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that rather than being an actual martyr type, Gwen likes to play the martyr at times, she does see herself as being put upon by her circumstances and she has a touch of the drama queen about her.

But I think Gwen also has a strong survival instinct, she may complain about her lot in life but she none the less finds a way to face it. I do not see her as being the type to succumb to suicide, but whatever becomes her I think she would find the resolve to bare it and try and find the angle in which she could turn things to her own advantage instead of giving up completely and accepting her misery as a permanent state.

If there is something that Gwen does later in the book to make you think she is a martyr-type, could we discuss it under its appropriate chapter section?

One question I have about Gwen is why doesn't she tell her mother and uncle about Mrs. Glasher? Her meeting with Mrs. Glasher definitely causes Gwen to flee from Grandcourt, but she hides this from her family. Is she possibly still considering Grandcourt as a suitor? It doesn't seem in character for her to be protecting Grandcourt... any ideas?

Julie at All Ears wrote: "One question I have about Gwen is why doesn't she tell her mother and uncle about Mrs. Glasher? Her meeting with Mrs. Glasher definitely causes Gwen to flee from Grandcourt, but she hides this fro..."

She is made to promoise not to tell anyone about it. Mrs. Glasher requests of her that she does not speak of it to anyone but keep it to herself.

Silver wrote: "Julie at All Ears wrote: "One question I have about Gwen is why doesn't she tell her mother and uncle about Mrs. Glasher? Her meeting with Mrs. Glasher definitely causes Gwen to flee from Grandcou..."
Thanks, Silver. I missed that...

Silver wrote: I want to like Daniel, and in the beginning when we did not know much about him he was intriguing, and while I do not dislike him and I do think it will be interesting to see what role he ends up playing in relationship to Gwen, I have to say I found the chapters dealing with his history to be a bit slow. I do not find him as fascinating as Gwen ...

I do agree; up to now I prefere Gwen than him, but, if not for something else that the fact that this books has its name!, I suppose something more will come out for him!

I just finished my re-read of these Chapters. Gwen has the meaty role but I really think that Eliot's heart is with Daniel, who is so thoughtful in both senses of the term and who tries so hard to do the right thing.

My favorite line in this section is when Gwen is asking for a critique of her singing from Herr Klesmer:

"'I dare say I have been extremely ill taught, in addition to having no talent -- only liking for music.' This was very well expressed considering that it had never entered her mind before."

In reading these chapters, I have been struck by the persistent theme around music and performing. So far, we have three characters who are singers of some sort - Gwen, Daniel, and Mirah. Herr Klesmer is a composer and pianist and Miss Arrowpoint is his student.

See you in Chapter 21, when, I think, the plots will come into synch on Gwen's return to Offendene due to the financial ruin of her family.

Bea wrote: In reading these chapters, I have been struck by the persistent theme around music and performing. So far, we have three characters who are singers of some sort - Gwen, Daniel, and Mirah. Herr Klesmer is a composer and pianist and Miss Arrowpoint is his student."

I really enjoyed the way in which there seems to be all these connections and parallels between the varrious different characters and how much different aspects of thier lives are reflective of each other. I enjoyed the sort of mirror reflection between Gwen and Mirah upon the question of signing.

Also the question of parentage seems to connect many of the characters in varrious different ways. Both Gwen and Mirah share a speiacal bond with thier mother and essentially lacking a father. While Mirah was ill used by her biological father, Gwen's family was brought to ruin becasue of the actions of her Step-father. Than there is Daniel who's parentage in unknown to him and we are introduced to Mrs. Glasher, another woman whom has children which have no real positive father figure, and of whom have been ill treated and abandoned by thier father.

Yes; the "paternal figure" is not particularly nice in this novel! Lots of women who are better off without them.

LauraT wrote: "Yes; the "paternal figure" is not particularly nice in this novel! Lots of women who are better off without them."

Speaking of paternal figures there is something which rather bothered me.

After Gwen finds out about Mrs. Glasher and thus makes her choice to refuse Grandcourt, and none of her family understand her reasoning for this sudden decision, her uncle makes a remark about being aware of some rumor about Grandcourt, but of which he did not think Gwen could have heard about.

This nagged at me, because it seems as if her uncle genuinely does care about Gwen and while granted considering his own finical position he may not want to have to bare supporting her family indefinitely, but if he was aware that there may be something against Grandcourt, than how could he be so willing to try and push Gwen into the marriage with him?

Of course we do not know if the rumor he speaks of is indeed that of the existence of Mrs. Glasher, but still there is clearly something he knows of, of which he thought could have prevented Gwen from the marriage if he believed she had heard of it. Yet he seems like someone who is in most regards concerned about doing the "right" thing, and overall good natured. And it does seem as if tries to see Gwen in a positive light and give her the benefit of the doubt.

I like Daniel Deronda so much more than Gwendolen! While she is completely self-centred and cares only for herself (I don't even feel that she really loves her mother, just makes a show of affection to manipulate her)Daniel is so thoughtful and loving as shown in his relationships with his uncle and the Meyricks. Mirah lacks the confidence that Gwen has but it is not surprising given the fact that she was uprooted at an early age and raised in a rather chaotic fashion. I admire her for daring to escape Prague and make her way to England in spite of her timidity. You have to be fearful in order to show courage. I hope that in the warm accepting circle of the Meyricks that she will grow in confidence and strength. Gwen on the other hand has always had an admiring secure circle about her - how could she be anything but confident? I'm really looking forward to the threads of the story coming together.

Marialyce wrote: "I like Daniel quite a bit. I feel he is presented with qualities that make him a true good human in thought, interaction, and being. "

I have a problem with Daniel. Eliot goes on with page after page after page of description of him, but maybe because I'm reading the book at bedtime I never have gotten much of a picture of him. It all just flows over me without giving me a clear picture of his inner life.

What I find more helpful in understanding him are his interactions with others -- restoring the necklace, his gentle care for Mirah. But all the descriptive verbiage about him did nothing to give me a good picture of his character.

I'm probably the only one who found the lengthy discussion of him less than helpful. Or am I?

Everyman wrote: "I'm probably the only one who found the lengthy discussion of him less than helpful. Or am I?"

No, you're not. ;-)

I agree that we get a much better understanding of him through his actions. Is this because it is written by a woman? While there are exceptions, men don't write female characters clearly and with understanding, just as I think, for the most part, women fail to write male characters well. But both have the power of observation and can give us insight through action.

One of the things that I like about George Eliot is her talent in taking a small scene and using it to show the true nature of a person. One of the stand-out scenes in this book was the breakfast scene with Grandcourt, Mr. Lush, and the two dogs. Grandcourt's satisfaction and relish in being emotionally cruel to one of his dogs is really creepy, especially the languid and dispassionate way he does it. A couple of times in the story, Eliot compares Grandcourt to a crocodile: menacing even while motionless and passive, because, at any moment, it may decide to strike.

Mickey wrote: "One of the things that I like about George Eliot is her talent in taking a small scene and using it to show the true nature of a person. One of the stand-out scenes in this book was the breakfast s..."

Really nice comment.

Mickey wrote: "One of the things that I like about George Eliot is her talent in taking a small scene and using it to show the true nature of a person. One of the stand-out scenes in this book was the breakfast s..."

Eliot's portrait of Grandcourt is really vivid. She also does an excellent job with Herr Klesmer. So I don't think Daniel's vagueness is a problem of gender.

Bea wrote: "Eliot's portrait of Grandcourt is really vivid. She also does an excellent job with Herr Klesmer. So I don't think Daniel's vagueness is a problem of gender."

So far for me, both Grandcourt and Klesmer are more caricatures than characters. But then, I've read only to Ch 23, so maybe they will develop more.

Bea wrote: "Wasn't Gwendolyn the wife of King Arthur in the Camelot legend? The one that had an affair with Sir Lancelot?

What I find so appalling is that they both look forward to taking charge after the ma..."

For me, the way he treated Fletch shows he has a cruelty that he is so comfortable with that he uses it for his amusement. That tells me there's something seriously flawed in his character.

Mickey wrote: "One of the things that I like about George Eliot is her talent in taking a small scene and using it to show the true nature of a person. One of the stand-out scenes in this book was the breakfast s..."

Eliot is preparing us for his sadism. If this is how he treats his dogs....