The Black Tower discussion

What does everyone think will happen in the final volume?

You totally read my mind! I started listening to ToM and was thinking of a few things last night. Now I can't remember most.

A friend of mine came up with a good theory that Taim is Moridin/Ishy. Which seems so obvious now.

I wish I wrote down my ideas like I used to. I will try to take same notes this time around.

Do you think Rand will die? i know that according to Min's viewing he will, but i still doubt it.

I think he will live. I am thinking that most of the world will believe him to be dead though. Min thinks her viewing means he will die because she thinks Moiraine is dead and he needs her help to survive. I think that Min's viewing of how Alivia will help Rand to die will be some sort of plot or trick so others think he is dead. Or to die andcome back or something along those lines. I also think that could tie into Egwene's dream (I think it was her dreaming) where Logain steps over Rand's body.

These are just off the top of my head. I need to go back and re-read the viewings and prophecies.

is it possible that Alivia lets Rand be killed then (she is incredibly strong in the one power) balefires his killer which brings him back to life?

hmm Ben that's a good theory.

which secondary characters do people think will die? i really hate to say it but i could see Thom sacrificing himself for moraine.

Ben wrote: "which secondary characters do people think will die? i really hate to say it but i could see Thom sacrificing himself for moraine."

I don't think any of the major character's will die except maybe Rand but i believe he will somehow be brought back to life. Cadsuane and alot of the Aes Sedai and Ashaman. Maybe some of those lords from Rift and other countries that are around Mat, Rand and Perrin.

Ben wrote: "is it possible that Alivia lets Rand be killed then (she is incredibly strong in the one power) balefires his killer which brings him back to life?"

You certainly have a good idea of how Rand can live after fulfilling the Prophesy. I like it!

Ben wrote: "is it possible that Alivia lets Rand be killed then (she is incredibly strong in the one power) balefires his killer which brings him back to life?"

It is a good theory. It just seems too easy to me though. She is supposed to help Rand die. To me it sounds like she will be involved in helping him to fake his death or to maybe help let another part of him die (like LTT or Moridin). Maybe it will be a big shock when we actually find out what that viewing means.

I don't know who will die. The only person I think is obvious is Brigitte because of all the sword foreshadowing. I am sure a lot of other smaller characters will get the axe. I mean it is The Last Battle after all. I hope not Thom, but I agree I can see it.

totally forgot about the Bridgette/sword thing and i could definatly see that happening as long as it wasn't a fluke on Brandon's part. they have said they made a lot of editing mistakes in ToM.

Ben wrote: "totally forgot about the Bridgette/sword thing and i could definatly see that happening as long as it wasn't a fluke on Brandon's part. they have said they made a lot of editing mistakes in ToM."

What is this Bridgette/Sword thing? What book is it found in? I must pay close attention in my next reread.

in many books bridgette has said she is not a swordswomen and that every time she has resorted to using one she has died. now it Towers of midnight she is described in a few scenes as having a sword at her hip.

Ben wrote: "in many books bridgette has said she is not a swordswomen and that every time she has resorted to using one she has died. now it Towers of midnight she is described in a few scenes as having a swor..."
Thank you Ben for that explanation. Perhaps she has forgotten that in her past lives(as those memories fade away) wielding a sword has consistently gotten her killed. So why not take to carrying one?

That is a extremly good theory now that you mention it. I mean it happened when Rand killed Rahvin

Ben wrote: "is it possible that Alivia lets Rand be killed then (she is incredibly strong in the one power) balefires his killer which brings him back to life?"

I'm also wondering if maybe Elyane has the Babies on Shayol Ghul. Becuase they are of his blood.

"The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

Kenneth, that was a theory I had for a long time. There are some other things that can support it too, but I can't remember any more what they are. But now that time has gone on and we are pretty much at TLB, I don't think the times match up. Unless Elayne goes into early labour, and with twins that is very likely.

kenneth you just blew my mind. i don't know how i never thought of the babies being born to relate to rand's blood on the rocks of shayol ghul. that definitely has merit.

i am going to run with that theory for a minute. everybody is always ripping on elyne for being so foolish and repeatedly putting herself (and babies) in danger, is it possible Robert Jordan has played that up the entire series to explain why she would be on the front lines of the battle at shayol ghul?

Yes, it could be. I can't find my notes from about 5-6 years ago where I thought Elayne's babies were some heroes reborn and the blood on the rocks worked into that theory. But I can't remember it and it is so frustrating. I am going to google it and see what comes up. By now there have to be some good theories since that podcast.

Ok, I found some of it anyway. All I could remember was I thought Elaynes babies were tied to the horn and that they were connected to black and red which matched the prophesy. I checked the WOT.WIKI for the exact prophesy and used my nook to find the details on the siblings.

The Karaethon Cycle says:
"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

The significance in this is the mention of birth and the red on black with the possible play on words for the Dragon's blood. We know Elayne will give birth to twins, possibly these siblings tied to the Horn:
"... and Shivan,the hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called The Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side..."

Doesn't it seem fitting that Elayne's babes could be the herald of a new age? And I really always thought "his blood on the rocks" was not literal and more like a blood relative.

Now the only thing standing in the way of this is the fact that Elayne is only around 5 months pregnant. So if this were true either Nynaeve heals the babes, but it isn't really healing since some organs might not be fully developed. Or maybe there is some weird time line going on in AMoL. Brandon Sanderson was said to mention something about the time line being different in this book, so that could be it.

ugh. . . where did that snippett come from? (which book?) that is a major bit o prophesy right there. im assuming its the end of great hunt. thank you so much for pointing this out.

The prophecy is first mentioned in TGH chapter 26, but then again Rand brings it up numerous times throughout the books since he thinks it means he will die.

The part about the heroes of the horn is in ACoS chapter 21 when Mat remembers who Brigitte is.

I didn't think about the red and black mask of those heros that's a good theory.

I thought that red and black may have something to do with Taim since his whole palace at the black tower is done in red and black.

i was pretty sure that Taim is not Mordin as some people think. Mainly because Taim was around when he was still Ishamael, also Rand didn't regonize him when Mordin saved Rand at Shadar Logoth when Rand was fighting Sammual, and during the dream conversation they had in Tel'aran'rhiod.

I think that Taim may be a new recruit of the dark one, a non age of legends foresaken maybe?

i definitely think Taim is a new age dreadlord. also i believe RJ said taim is not a forsaken ( or maybe that he was not demandred, not sure). i've been on a song of ice and fire kick recently but picked up great hunt last night after posting and got sucked into WOT again. sorry mr martin but RJ is my all time favorite.

Ben wrote: "i definitely think Taim is a new age dreadlord. also i believe RJ said taim is not a forsaken ( or maybe that he was not demandred, not sure). i've been on a song of ice and fire kick recently but ..."

He said he wasn't demandred.

You should check out Brent Weeks Night Angel Trilogy

i've been meaning to ever since the 2012 suvudu cagematch. i really liked the morain vs. assassin dude writeup.

i've posted this on another thread but didn't get any replies so i figured id throw it out here. Does any think that once Rand destroys the seals and reopens the bore (where padin fain said he would be waiting for him) that rand could reseal the bore with Fain inside, causing another shadar logoth/taint effect with padin fain and the darkone canceling one another out of existance? let me know what you think, if this is a little to out there feel free to say so.

I doubt that they use that method again. If that was the case i would think that the wounds on Rand's side would stop hurting if not heal. But you do pose a good question where has he been and what kind of role will he play in the last battle? Does he hate Rand or the Dark One more?

i definatly think he hates the three tavaren more than the dark one (in my opinion). and we do know **spoiler** that he is no longer activly hunting rand, but instead has decided to wait for him at shayol ghul, where he knows the three boys will be, with his new host of zombie trollocs. that is one of my most anticipated moments of AMOL, second only to the morain rand reunion.

So at the end of ToM Thom and Moiraine clearly have a history.

I wonder if somehow they will tie it back into Thom and her being in emond's field at the same time during The Eye of the World.

After all Thom useally goes into the cities alone and before anyone else while traveling with the band of the red hand.

Does anyone remember if Thom's newphew died after he was stilled or just stilled?

in not 100% on this but i think thom and moraine knew each other from when thom was the royal bard (aka the grey fox) of camlyn. back then the courts of andor and carhien were very intermingled, and moraine was of very high station as a demisted. i believe thoms nephew did die i just cant remember 100%

I think Thom's nepwew died after being stilled because he no longer had the will to live.