Fantasy Book Club Series discussion

This thread is for discussing the first 1/2 of the first book which includes the following chapters:

STOLEN LETTERS
MEETINGS
CONSPIRACIES
WINDERMERE
ESRAHADDON

So...I sat down with my brand new version of Theft of Swords and started my re-read. What a joy!! Here are some of my comments from the first few chapters.

Chapter #1: I LOVE the new begining...how funny to have Royce giving advice to theives on how to do a better job in the future. This single beginning really encapsulates a great deal for me.

1 - The chemistry between Royce and Hadrian. Hadrian trying to be a peacemaker...Royce's "I told you so." attitude. It'll be nice for new readers to get a "hint" that these are two who should be messed with...in other words they are more than they seem.

2 - It's interesting to see Archie in the "early days" ... trying to better his station. In re-reading there are some ironic statements that he makes. (view spoiler)[He is trying to marry to better his station and later he criticizes Ethelred for doing the exact same thing (hide spoiler)]

3 - Totally missed a number of early references to: Breckton (oh how I love him), Enden (whose fate will be determined in the Avempartha section), Wesley (another Belstrad to know and love - but won't meet for quite some time) and Myron who we will meet shortly. I think it is great that these "little references" are so subtly placed. Usually re-reading is never as good as the first time through, but in this case I find that I'm discovering things that I didn't know where even there ... brillant ... simply brillant.

4 - As to the missing letters. I liked that Sullivan gives us a bit of a mystery as to how they were stollen in the first place. Personally, when I first read the opening I thought that Victor made the switch.

5 - Degan Guant - rebel leader - I totally forgot... or maybe I never made the connection originally but right in Chapter 1 we are told that he is leading a Nationalist Movement. Once again a masterful insertion of just a little tidbit that goes unnoticed (at least it did by me) early on and has bigger implications as the story progresses.

In summary...there is a lot going on that means so much more on a re-read than it did the first time through. I can't think of another book that I've seen this technique used so well.

Chapter 2:
The first section where Alenda meets with Albert and Mason was "okay" but other than a really nice description of the various types of thieves I wasn't overly interested. I do like the way Royce slapped Alenda around a bit - you call tell he doesn't like "people of privilege".

I liked having the "explanation" of how the letters were actually stolen. As I mentioned above I thought the Marquis had made a switch. It was kind of a good "setup" because the room seemed to be so hard to get into. I also like the "hints" that Hadrian is good with weapons (the cutting of the rope with arrows).

(view spoiler)[There's a nice little reference to the trouble that going on (Killings near the Niddwalden River) which is the focus of the second book. (hide spoiler)]

I really liked the internal dialog Hadrian has over taking "the job". You get a sense of him trying to justify what he does for a living and his desire for "doing what is right".

I loved the exchange between Royce and Gwen. It's nice to see the depth that they care for each other with just a few exchange of lines.

I have to confess I haven't re read this, although I remember enjoying it alot and I did read the last chapter.

Hey Elizabeth...ah yes -- re-reading will indeed show you a bunch of things that you probably didn't notice the first time through. That is indeed some of the advantages of writing them all before the first one is written. Unfortunatley, it gets even worse once the final book is read as everything is finally "revealed" and you will see even more pieces of the puzzle. I do like a book or movie where subsequent episodes brings more meaning to previous ones. This means you can enjoy the book in "a whole new way" once you start a re-read. I'm glad you are finding little Easter Eggs here and there.

Archie's transition is one that took even me by surprise. He is an example of a character that got more screen time and a bigger role to play because I could see ways of using him to connect threads and provide some nice twists along the way. He does go through an interesting transition.

Here's a little "behind the scenes" thing about Deagan. I brought him up right away...and mention him in passing to get you to hopefully wonder "Who is Degan Gaunt?" Much in they way Ayn Rand used "Who is John Galt?" (Notice the similarities in name). Mentioned early on - but not really "seen" until very late in the series.

Helen wrote: "I have to confess I haven't re read this, although I remember enjoying it alot and I did read the last chapter."

Shouldn't have to re-read Helen. I do place little reminders in the subsequent books that will remind you of important points you need to know.

YOu are right, as I read book 2 I kept getting flashes from book 1. Enjoyed 2 a lot.

Chapter 3:
So much to love here. The book is just starting off and alread a lot is going on. I like seeing Royce and Hadrian working as a team as they go to pickup the sword.

Alric is portrayed as privledged and uncaring - which I think fits his personality.

The best part of this chapter was in the dungeon. And yes more little clues that I missed on the first read...(view spoiler)[ Royce has the brand from Manzant and Hadrian is wearing a silver locket!! (hide spoiler)]

It was kind of strange reading Arista as she is much different in Crown Conspiracy then she is later in teh book. Favorite scene...the exchange between Royce and Hadrian and Arista in the jail cell. “I like any plan where I don’t die a horrible death.”

I also liked the discussion on the boat about becoming fishermen...you can really tell that Hadrian is not comfortable with his current vocation.

Chapter 4:
What a great chapter - and it contains one of my favorite scenes - it is so touching when Myron says goodbye to his childhood friend.

I also like the way how Michael is continuing to build Alric up as such a jerk. (view spoiler)[Later on he has a life changing moment that starts him on the track to being better - in many ways Alric grows the most in the seris. (hide spoiler)]

Once more Degan Gaunt is brought up. More little nuggets for the future??

I totally forgot that Myron never met his sister. I wonder if he ever finally does. Definitely not a "close family" lol - I kind of liked Victor in the beginning of the book (he seemed to care a lot about his daughter but I'm not so keen on the fact that he dumped Myron at the Abbey then treated him so poorly.

I also liked the way Hadrian "snapped" when Myron was late coming to the horses. It's subtle little interactions like this that really endears me to Michael's writing.

Chapter 5:
One of my favorites - I love the prison - very creepy. I think how they get trapped and then released was nicely laid out. I love the idea of being constnatly reminded of your first memory. Made me wonder what Royce's would be.

On that subject...found another referrence to a later book - I won't say what it means but Hadrian's memory does get explained later down the line.

I think it is really good that Eshrahaddon doesn't join up with the party but leaves to go about his merry way. In so many other groups of course the wizard just goes along...and later would save the day. But not here.

Favorite line of this section:

“Well, I do have one, but it seems almost as frightening as the alternative.”

“What’s that?”

“We do what the wizard says.”

Here's an interesting piece of trivia about the scene with Esrahaddon. Originally he spoke very little - and I wasn't very confident about the the proper grammar of archaic speech. I did the best I could but got several complaints that it was 'wrong'.

After a particularly scathing review I spent some time studying the style of some of the original Shakespear works then put it out a new edition with Esrahaddon much more verbose.

His "dialog" is probably the most criticized area of the first book - and I'm never sure if it is the "first" version or the second they dislike.

I have no idea what is "proper" speak but as a reader --- I don't care. I'm reading the book for the great characters and fascinating plot. Grammar Nazi's need to "get a life." As long as I understand what is trying to be said I don't care if it's not 100% authentic.

What an awesome book so far. The characters seem to come to life right on the page. The distinct personalities in the characters makes for a more interesting read. This is the first time for me to read these books and am totally looking forward to more.

Hey Elizabeth, you misspelled "autentic". :-P

Guess I'll go kill someone now. As I don't have a life, I need to go take one :-P

Brent, you are in for one hell of a ride sir. You better hold on tight :-)

Brent wrote: "What an awesome book so far. The characters seem to come to life right on the page. The distinct personalities in the characters makes for a more interesting read. This is the first time for me to ..."

Great Brent - glad to see you are loving it. Can't wait to discuss the books with you more.

Isaac wrote: "Hey Elizabeth, you misspelled "autentic". :-P

Guess I'll go kill someone now. As I don't have a life, I need to go take one :-P

Doh! But you must be mistaken...I see no typo (thank you ability to edit prior posts -- oops did I say the soft part out loud - my bad).

HAHAHAHA I SAW THAT!!!

Michael, you already know you can't make everyone happy all the time. I'm glad that despite the scathing reviews you continue to grace us all with your fantastic work. The ratio of complaints to praise has to be ridiculously one sided given how great they are.

Isaac,

Yes, but as with all people I am inclined to accept what I already believe to be the truth. Tell me I'm a good writer and I'll need to hear that a million times before I even begin to suspect you might have a point. (Remember I had thirty years of conditioning in this area.) Now tell me I'm awful, and that's really easy for me to believe, no faith necessary.

So in case you aren't already aware. Hearing that you liked the books...well, it means a whole lot more than I suspect you think it does, or anyone does.

Hi, I'm a about 100 pages in or so, now - in the middle of the fourth chapter, but thought I'd share some initial impressions. I have to say I'm a little out of my comfort zone. My expectations of what a SFF should be were formed in my teenage years from reading LoTR and the Dune novels. I like complex worldbuilding, multi-threaded plotlines, characters in conflict with themselves. All that complicated, beard scratching stuff.

It seems Michael's novel is beating to a different drum, and I'm still adjusting to the rhythm. It would be unfair to criticise the book because it's not yet another retread of Game of Thrones. That's clearly not the intention - and, anyway, there's tons of books like that (maybe too many?). But at the moment I'm experiencing a mismatch between what I want a Fantasy novel to be and what Theft of Swords actually is (so far): a plot-driven action romp where world-building elements are present but very much in the background.

I'm surprised by the lack of sustained peril so far. The 3 or 4 times so far Hadrian and Royce have got themselves into a dangerous situation, they seem to extricate themselves remarkably quickly, and still have time to exchange a quip or two. To my mind, the more dire a situation, the more cunning and hard to accomplish the escape should be. Otherwise you end up believing the heroes will just stride through the rest of the novel like gods - untouchable by any adversity comes their way. With this in mind, the dungeon escape was, to my mind, far too straightforward and incident-free.

Another things that's jarred with me so far is Myron. His ability to remember verbatim everything he's read seems a far too convenient way to inform the reader of any back-history is needed for the plot. Having said that, he's only been around for a few pages, so there's plenty of time for his character to develop.

Obviously, these are just initial impressions, and probably no more that teething trouble while I adjust to a different type of fantasy novel than that which I am used to. There's so much goodness written about this series on blogs and review sites, that I'm definitely going to continue reading. Despite a few initial reservations, I am certainly finding it a compelling read, and look forward to finding out what happens when our band of heroes (?) leave the monastery.

Dude, it gets harder, believe that. Their perils get harder, and they and their friends will suffer for it.

Also as convenient as Myron is, Michael's not the first person to use such a character, and I've actually known at least one person with a photographic memory, crazy as it is. His character does develop, however, and I think you'll enjoy the transformation.

Being a huge fan of LoTR and Tolkein's other Middle Earth works, I can understand your concerns. The way I view Riyria is a modern twist on an old formula. Their language and actions mold to what heroes of today would do. You'll note the difference when they meet Esra and exchange the quips about the difference in the old and new version of their language.

Jim wrote: "Hi, I'm a about 100 pages in or so, now - in the middle of the fourth chapter, but thought I'd share some initial impressions. I have to say I'm a little out of my comfort zone. My expectations of what a SFF should be were formed in my teenage years from reading LoTR and the Dune novels. I like complex worldbuilding, multi-threaded plotlines, characters in conflict with themselves. All that complicated, beard scratching stuff.

Lol - keep reading you won't be disappointed multi-threaded plotlines and characters with internal conflict is something that Michael's books do PHENOMINALLY WELL. I think the difference is that Michael develops all this over time across the whole series rather than slathering it all on in the beginning.

Jim wrote: "I'm surprised by the lack of sustained peril so far. The 3 or 4 times so far Hadrian and Royce have got themselves into a dangerous situation, they seem to extricate themselves remarkably quickly, and still have time to exchange a quip or two. To my mind, the more dire a situation, the more cunning and hard to accomplish the escape should be. Otherwise you end up believing the heroes will just stride through the rest of the novel like gods - untouchable by any adversity comes their way. With this in mind, the dungeon escape was, to my mind, far too straightforward and incident-free.

Actually...and this isn't something we've talked about so I would like to discuss more...Hadrian and Royce really don't extricate themselves very often. We are given the impression that they are "really good" but throughout the series they are rescued by others as much as they rescue others. I think this is a good balance - they aren't "gods" that breeze through everything. There will be MANY times when things don't go their way. They actually fail often and that really humanized them for me.

Jim wrote: "Another things that's jarred with me so far is Myron. His ability to remember verbatim everything he's read seems a far too convenient way to inform the reader of any back-history is needed for the plot. Having said that, he's only been around for a few pages, so there's plenty of time for his character to develop.

Myron is "the man" He has a realatively small part to play in the first book but he really shines in the last two. (He's not in books 2 - 4). He is one of my favorite characters and he does develop into something much different by the end of the series then he is at the start - next to Modina (who you've not met yet) I think his character progression is the best.

Jim wrote: "Obviously, these are just initial impressions, and probably no more that teething trouble while I adjust to a different type of fantasy novel than that which I am used to. There's so much goodness written about this series on blogs and review sites, that I'm definitely going to continue reading. Despite a few initial reservations, I am certainly finding it a compelling read, and look forward to finding out what happens when our band of heroes (?) leave the monastery..."

No worries about having a different perspective - I love the series - but it's not as much fun discussing it with the choir so please don't take my responses as a way of "shouting down" your very valid impressions. It may just be that having finished the series I know more than you do so I see things differently. I'm looking forward to more discussions as you move along.

Thanks for the response, Elizabeth. I'm in the middle of chapter 8 now. I know this is a thread for the first five chapters, so I won't talk too much about chps 6 and 7, but what I will say is that I'm enjoying it more now. But I have to say Chapter 5 was a right slog. Esrahaddon and his archaic speech really made that part drag.

You say that H&R often have to be rescued by others a lot of the time. Is that a good thing? I thought the point was the Riyria are legendary theives. One is an ex-warrior master swordsmen, the other a cunning master of the stealth. Shouldn't they be averting catastrophe by use of their skills and intelligence?To be fair they do this at times, but all their adventurous escapes seem to be over so quickly, there's little time for the reader to empathise with their predicament and feel the sense of danger. It all feels very rushed to me - like we're being railroaded from one scene to the next. I guess that's part of the popularity of these novels though. Robert Jordan and George RR Martin have a ton of descriptive text in their prose, even what everyone is wearing is described in detail! Some reviews of these books I've read see them as having a refeshing "back to basics" approach in contrast to Martin and co. The thing is I love Game of Thrones and want all my fanstasy to be like that!

Actually, one question for Isaac and/or Elizabeth? (or indeed anyone else who's read the whole series) The series has a reputation for starting simple and building complexity as it goes on. I kinda knew that before I started reading it I would find it too simplistic initially, but I knew that the people who have stuck by the whole series seem to love it. So my question is, when does the transition occur? From Westzone's review of ToS it would seem to be after Avempartha - but where exactly?

Damn man....that's a hard question. I can see why people would say Avempartha because that's where we learn about the Elves and the part that Esra plays in trying to avert the extinction of humanity.

In Crown Conspiracy you get the simple story of someone killing the king and heirs to get the throne, relatively simple story. Then you get to Avempartha and you have people trying to setup not just a kingdom, but an EMPIRE and you learn about the Elves and their plan. By the end, you just shot up about 2-3 levels of complicated.

By the end of the series Michael has built so many twists that some of the revelations blindside you completely. I'm sure you'll have your suspicions on some, but there will be at least one revelation that you won't see coming.

Jim wrote: "Actually, one question for Isaac and/or Elizabeth? (or indeed anyone else who's read the whole series) The series has a reputation for starting simple and building complexity as it goes on. I kinda knew that before I started reading it I would find it too simplistic initially, but I knew that the people who have stuck by the whole series seem to love it. So my question is, when does the transition occur? From Westzone's review of ToS it would seem to be after Avempartha - but where exactly?"

The simple answer is that every book is a little more complicated than the one before. It's not just the plot, either - the characters acquire more depth, the background becomes more interesting, and the writing is a notch up too, and that's exactly as Michael intended.

Once you get past Avempartha, you will know whether it's for you or not. Some people like the simplistic stories of the first couple of books, and bail out after that, but a lot of people get drawn in by the complications and enjoy the last four books better. And for my money, the real payoff is in Percepliquis, the final book. This is not one of those series which ends in a damp squib!

Jim wrote: "Thanks for the response, Elizabeth. I'm in the middle of chapter 8 now. I know this is a thread for the first five chapters, so I won't talk too much about chps 6 and 7, but what I will say is that I'm enjoying it more now. But I have to say Chapter 5 was a right slog. Esrahaddon and his archaic speech really made that part drag.

That's really an interesting perspective. I guess for me I liked the whole "idea" of the prison - the runes to stop the magic, the killing of people who made it so they couldn't talke. The "Hannibal Lecture-eque" quality of not doing anything he says. I thought the fact that they got trapped...and how they got out to be a prety clever way of handling it.

As for Esrahaddon's language. Yeah I had to slow down because it was like reading Shakesphere and I had to try and figure out what was being said. But overall I wasn't annoyed by it.

Jim wrote: "You say that H&R often have to be rescued by others a lot of the time. Is that a good thing?

I guess different people will feel differntly on that account...for me I like it becasue I don't want them to be complete supermen who are invincible. In most cases when they are locked up...they could spill blood but choose not to. I guess I'm a bit more "passive resistor" than Rambo so yeah it worked for me, but I fully recognize it might not work for everyone.

Jim wrote: "I thought the point was the Riyria are legendary theives. One is an ex-warrior master swordsmen, the other a cunning master of the stealth. Shouldn't they be averting catastrophe by use of their skills and intelligence?


Well - look at it this way..sometimes not all the chips fall your way. Michael makes both the bad guys and the good guys have to "rethink their plans" because things sometimes don't turn out right.

Jim wrote: "To be fair they do this at times, but all their adventurous escapes seem to be over so quickly, there's little time for the reader to empathise with their predicament and feel the sense of danger. It all feels very rushed to me - like we're being railroaded from one scene to the next. I guess that's part of the popularity of these novels though. Robert Jordan and George RR Martin have a ton of descriptive text in their prose, even what everyone is wearing is described in detail! Some reviews of these books I've read see them as having a refeshing "back to basics" approach in contrast to Martin and co. The thing is I love Game of Thrones and want all my fanstasy to be like that!

Yeah again I think that is a personal preference thing and there is no "right or wrong". For me...when I'm reading a book with all that descrption - I find myself just scanning over it to get to the "good parts" but for others I'm sure it makes it a much more authentic experience.

Jim wrote: "Actually, one question for Isaac and/or Elizabeth? (or indeed anyone else who's read the whole series) The series has a reputation for starting simple and building complexity as it goes on. I kinda knew that before I started reading it I would find it too simplistic initially, but I knew that the people who have stuck by the whole series seem to love it. So my question is, when does the transition occur? From Westzone's review of ToS it would seem to be after Avempartha - but where exactly?

Well there is no question that the full story is a complex one with lots of threads and story arcs all going on simultaneiously. I wouldn't say that it "shifts" necessary...it just builds...like river silt.

For instance we learn in Crown that Royce has a tattoo and we think it might be from Manzant, but we don't know what Manzant is or why that is importnat.

In Avempartha we learn a bit more about why/how he was sent to Manzant - the circumstances that led to this.

Later on we discover who he met in Manzant, and who got him hout of Manzant.

Similarly in Crown we hear Hadrian's worst memory involves a tiger's death and a crowd shouting "Gilanti" in Emerald Storm we learn what that is all about.

So each book will keep revisiting things that you have just passing acquaitance with and give more details. It's kind of like a painting where first there is a pencil sketch. Then some color is laid down but in large - undefiend areas then the details are placed on top. So it doesn't "shift" so much as with each book you've been exposed to more clues and they all start clicking into place and from that you have a good understanding of where the characters have come from and a better understanding of the world because you've traveled to different areas of it.

"So each book will keep revisiting things that you have just passing acquaitance with and give more details...."

Nicely said.

Michael wrote: "Here's an interesting piece of trivia about the scene with Esrahaddon. Originally he spoke very little - and I wasn't very confident about the the proper grammar of archaic speech. I did the best I..."


I don't think that it really matters. It is a fiction fantasy book. You could have created a whole new language and no one should be upset about it.

"...no one should be upset about it."

I realized today that Lincoln had it all wrong. The quote should read:

You can please some of the people some of the time,
And you can please some of the people, all of the time,
But you can never please all of the people--ever!

Michael wrote: ""...no one should be upset about it."

I realized today that Lincoln had it all wrong. The quote should read:

You can please some of the people some of the time,
And you can please some of the pe..."

Yes, that is more accurate. :)

Michael wrote: "I realized today that Lincoln had it all wrong. The quote should read:

You can please some of the people some of the time,
And you can please some of the people, all of the time,
But you can never please all of the people--ever! "

Hahaha! Nice.