The Sword and Laser discussion

Greetings fellow nerds!

I just joined this group and the whole Good Reads community today (like less than a half hour ago) I followed Tom and V from the other more techy podcasts they do and I’m looking to get back into scifi books.

But this thread isn’t about me… its about my wife… my poor wife who makes terrible life choices (like marrying me)…

She’s a newborn atheist and is just getting into the whole geek culture (we have a culture?!) we live in a small ultra-conservative town and she’s feeling lonely and could use a book or book series that will help her feel like she’s not alone in loving science and rational thought.

I’ve tried giving her some books I love but I’m too much of a clown, I can’t handle scifi that takes itself too seriously. (The last “serious” scifi book I read was from Geogre R. R. Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire, I got like 5 books in and as much as I’m suppose to love him because I’m pudgy, pale, and work in IT; I can’t bring myself to pick up another one of his “go nowhere and rip your soul through your-penis-800-pages-death-walks) so I’m obviously not the best one to show my Lovely the scifi ropes…

Any ideas of a good series that will jive with her atheist point of view? She likes a good love story, but doesn’t want something that talks to her like a 3rd grade girl with her first crush… I suggested the Hunger Games, but even that series starts to suck after book one…

Let me know what ya’ll suggest and I’ll pass them along!

-Norm

Uhm. Leviathan Wakes is really good scifi. Doesn't really speak to atheism though...

Thanks Ala! I'll have her look at it!

I would recommend books by Isaac Asimov, who was a scientist and atheist. She might want to start with his Foundation series.

Not sure about the love story part of that, though.

She's looking over my shoulder and will check both out... I'll let you know if any of them stick...

Try Coyoteby Allen Steele Allen Steele is a confessed Athiest. The books are Science Fiction and fun. I kind of felt like I was reading stories from the frontier (like Kit Carson) and the like.

In the later books of this series, there is a group with a definate sense of spirituality at odds with good old fashioned religion. It makes for interesting reading.

Couple more that I've read recently in the laser department that I enjoyed:
Machine Man, Ready Player One and Oryx and Crake.

Might also try the Culture novels by Iain Banks.

Again, I don't think they speak directly to atheism, but they were still pretty good reads.

I might recommend His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman, but only because you specifically asked for books that appeal to atheist. In fact I was rather put off by the way religion was woven into the story and I'm at least an agnostic - if not an atheist - myself (the fact that I'm not sure what I am points to agnostic, I guess).

I just don't like it when people try to shove too much religious belief into their stories, but I know that other people really liked the books (I liked the first one a lot, but for me it got worse with each book).

I guess a lot of the old science fiction authors would be a good recommendation, but I don't usually look out for any religious themes in the books I read, so I wouldn't know what to recommend on that specific topic.

(Margaret Atwood sounds like a good choice, too.)

I'm with you on that, Anne. As much as I had a bad taste in my mouth from Christianity being shoved down my throat when I was a kid, I'd rather just ignore it altogether. I don't even read books by atheists against religion, although I think I should in case another Christian tries to get me to go to church, or think I should take my child to church. I go where it's pleasant. Spending my time focusing on religion, for or against, is not pleasant to me.

Yes, I do celebrate Christmas, but in a way that celebrates human joy and togetherness, and the festivity of those pretty red and green ornaments, so that I can be with my family and friends, and allow my child to not feel excluded.

I highly recommend Rosemary Kirstein's Steerswoman series--a whole guild of rational, questioning women who reinvent the scientific process. It reads like a fantasy but gets more sci-fi as you go along.

Terry Pratchett's Small Gods, while not exactly an atheist book (the gods of the Discworld certainly exist, though Pratchett himself is an atheist) is loved by many of my atheist friends for it's commendation of dogmatism and fundamentalism. Also it's funny as hell.

FertileSpade wrote: "So if you're into sci-fi/fantasy and geek culture than by default you're an athiest and the only group that thinks rationally? Sounds incredibly arrogant and narcisistic to me. Check yourself. Migh..."

Don't think he said that, and why does it matter what Tolkien said on the subject?

FertileSpade wrote: "So if you're into sci-fi/fantasy and geek culture than by default you're an athiest and the only group that thinks rationally? Sounds incredibly arrogant and narcisistic to me. Check yourself. Might want to check what Tolkien thought about the subject, but then again what did he know, just a literary giant and father of fantasy."

First of all, to associate atheism with sci-fi/fantasy might be mildly ignorant, it is in no way arrogant or narcissistic.

Second of all, fantasy has existed for thousands of years, long before the bible and certainly longer than Tolkien, so to say he's the 'father of fantasy' is laughable at best.

I'm an atheist, but my novels don't necessarily tout that. *shrug* Novels that preach religion, pro or con, usually don't find their way onto my bookshelves.

Thanks a lot everyone! You've given her a great start, and I really appreciate it!

FertileSpade wrote: "So if you're into sci-fi/fantasy and geek culture than by default you're an athiest and the only group that thinks rationally? Sounds incredibly arrogant and narcisistic to me. Check yourself. Migh..."

Uh... whut?

Seriously, who is this guy talking to? It was like this post was a reply to a different thread or post altogether... I mean... whut?

Carl Sagan's books are terrific. They're scientific, inspiring, and romantic in a love of discovery way.

Arthur C. Clarke's Space odyssey series is always good. Not necessarily atheist in anyway, but they're enjoyable sci-fi.

I would recommend Darwin's Radio by Greg Bear and the sequel Darwin's Children. It deals with the next step in human evolution and people who try and stop it. It's a great thriller and a captivating read

Anne wrote: "I might recommend His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman, but only because you specifically asked for books that appeal to atheist. In fact I was rather put off by the way religion was w..."



I second this

There are tons of sci-fi anthologies - she could try one of those and see which authors she likes?
Has she read The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy?

I don't mind religion in books, as long as it isn't all that dominant and doesn't get preachy (in the Narnia books I tried very hard to just see Aslan as a cool lion :-)

I would highly, greatly, even MIGHTILY suggest you start your wife off with Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern series. The first three books in the series are Dragonflight, Dragonquest and The White Dragon.

This is science fiction that feels like fantasy, it has a strong female character at the heart of it (even if the 3rd book's main character is a young man coming of age), along with plenty of other female characters who are intelligent. It's not about religion/atheism per se, but it is about using rational thought to overcome years of hidebound tradition and struggling to nurture a burgeoning scientific mindset. All of it set against this amazing backdrop in the midst of an adventure which takes place over a couple decades.

I am actually a Christian, so I can't relate to the OP's position. However, I think, and have always thought, that you should read whatever is GOOD. Regardless of point of view, setting, author perspective, etc. Honestly, I do not believe that you can separate religion from literature, because its an inherent part and parcel of the human situation. It will pop up in books, regardless of an author's intentions. Reading, writing, etc.; it's all part of an eternal ongoing dialogue.
As a side note, I was once told by a Rabbi that "atheists are closest to the divine, because they reject the false interpretations of the divine". Not sure what that means, but there it is...
The point I really want to make, is that it would be SAD if I were not to read books written by an atheist, and for you to not read books written by a Christian/Muslim/etc. because of our prejudices. Not implying that you would, though...
Peace.

Jason wrote: "As a side note, I was once told by a Rabbi that "atheists are closest to the divine, because they reject the false interpretations of the divine". Not sure what that means, but there it is..."

If you have no god then you have no false god and If he knew that you are a Christian then it was his way of saying you would be better off as an atheist because you chose the wrong god.

Like Louise said. Douglas Adams was a Atheist and good friend of Richard Dawkins. The whole The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series of books I'd recommends to anyone regardless of religious beliefs.

"Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" -Douglas Adams

But I'd like to think there could be fairies.

I understand Spade's reaction, and confess to a slight twitch reading the opening post. There is an assumption of atheism, and an assumption of all "reasonable" folks coming to that conclusion, in many spaces in geek culture. It is particularly prevalent, I've noticed, in the literary space. It can feel quite frustrating to a person of faith.

As frustrating for the atheist, I imagine, as the assumption in many spaces of American culture that all "reasonable" folks are "good and upstanding" Christians. Perhaps Norman's wife can relate.

Ah, but for understanding....

I respect all faiths. I have a problem with Christians because they're the only ones I've encountered that make the assumption that I'm so stupid that they have to point out to me that I need to join them in church. And I was forced as a child to attend Sunday school when I first came to the U.S. because some church group with a clean cut kid knocked on our door. To this day, whenever I hear about Jesus, bumper stickers or whatever, my stomach turns, and sometimes even anger. If I was in another country with another dominant religion, where it's constantly foisted on me, I would feel the same way about that group.

There is another way to approach this. I'm generally more Gnostic than Agnostic (which is no more tolerable for my christian friends than being agnostic or athiest, or my agnostic and athiest friends for that matter but helps me be more tollerant of them and any other religion for that matter).

I enjoyed Ted Dekker's Black: The Birth of Evil, White and Red. I started reading this series belieivng that it was just a mediocre Urban Fantasy, or Modern Fantasy/Science Fiction type story. Then, I went to Tedd Dekker's websight (Which has since evloved as his writing has evolved and moved on to different things) and read that he wrote these books as an allegory to explain how religion, faith and spirituality work.

As a full blown doubting Thomas, I found the allegory much more agreable to me than being preached at and treated like a child who'd run away from home and forgot how to get back. In no way did it change my own sense of faith etc. but it did open my eyes up to understanding people of faith and how they see the world and how this religion and God thing worked for them. (Taking the time to learn and understand is not the same thing as agreeing with someone. It just goes a long way towards healthier relationships).

These stories difused some standing resentments between me and some preachers I didn't particulalry see eye-to-eye with. Allegorical books are wonderful. There is nothing they can do to change a mind that does not want to be changed, but they can shed a little light on how the other half lives.

Just a thought.

Domenico wrote: "I would recommend Darwin's Radio by Greg Bear and the sequel Darwin's Children. It deals with the next step in human evolution and people who try and stop it. It's a great thriller and a captivatin..."

Connie Willis' _Beggars in Spain_ series would probably compliment those books very well.

I'm surprised that as an atheist (I'm one, too) you're specifically only asking for books that deal with atheism or would "appeal to atheists"... it is a strange request but I also immediately thought of the His Dark Materials books by Philip Pullman. He's got an interesting take on religion...

Personally, I actually enjoy reading books where religion (any one of them) is a theme. Being an atheist and open to science and logic means (at least to me) being also open to any new viewpoint. So just go for what's good. There are some awesome recommendations in this forum and on the podcast.

I'd agree with The Guide. Suggestion as well.
Add the Dirk Gently books for some amusing mystery/sci-fi.

I am not entirely well read when it comes to sci-fi, so i will suggest William Gibson's stuff. (eg. The Sprawl Trilogy.) Mostly because it is good.

As to the, His Dark Materials, i enjoyed the first book, but found the rest of them to be too mean-spirited to fully enjoy.

Try Charles Stross's the Atrocity Archives. I think it's just what your looking for.

Boots wrote: "Jason wrote: "As a side note, I was once told by a Rabbi that "atheists are closest to the divine, because they reject the false interpretations of the divine". Not sure what that means, but there ..."

He was actually a messianic rabbi

I think SF has a strong strain of rationalism, by its very nature - whether or not this is the same thing as atheism, there's a lot of cross-over. Most of it generally ignores the concept of the spiritual or treats it as a sociological phenomenon. Sheri Tepper and Ursula le Guin probably deal best, I think.

Fantasy is odd, because so much of it is predicated on the existence of gods and the supernatural. His Dark Materials is the only fantasy I can think of that is specifically anti-theistic, although Pratchett often makes fun of religion; his gods are hardly divine or omnipotent. Most modern fantasy would, of course, be considered heretical by earlier christianity, dealing as it does with magic and gods other than Yahweh.

I heartily concur about His Dark Materials - I love the whole trilogy - as well as the early Hitch Hiker's books and both Dirk Gently books. I am a HUGE Charlie Stross fan, but some of his work can be a bit overwhelming if you're new to SF - very big concepts - although the Laundry books (starting with The Atrocity Archives) are massive fun.

I'm an atheist and while I can relate to the need to find sympathy for a world view in the fiction you read I would also counsel quite strongly against seeking out specifically atheist fiction. Like everyone who strongly believes in a certain point of view atheist writers can sometimes be a little overzealous (a fact i respect in academic and nonfiction work but which damages my enjoyment of fiction).

It's a much better idea to sample SF from over a long time period and using that to bolster your worries/feelings about atheism.

As a young man the rationalism and scientific objectiveness of Asimov, Clarke and Heinlein gave me my first look at the opinions I hold so dearly now. They have only been strengthened by my academic studies and my further reading of SF and Fantasy. In fact some of my favourite fantasy books are those filled with Gods (not least because the brilliantly formed lore of these novels usually shows up the tragic inconsistencies in the religions that actually exist).

As to specific authors, Douglas Adams and Phillip Pullman are choices which is wholeheartedly support.

Of course if you just want a book that takes this religion thing on right up front and does it in a fun, humorous and enjoyable way, try...

Waiting for the Galactic Bus and the sequel The Snake Oil Wars or Scheherazade Ginsberg Strikes Again by Parke Godwin a fun read that's surprisingly deep despite it's wonderfully playful sense of humor.

A series that I found to be wonderfully anti-religious is the Elenium by david eddings. The god and culture of the main character is much like the catholic church, and the other gods refer to "God" as "that guy none of us like and that takes himself to seriously"

whatever your leanings, eddings is probably the funniest fantasy author I have ever read.

Although The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was not well received, largely for its political opinions, when discussed on S&L, consider books by Robert A. Heinlein - he never "came out" as atheist but his writing is certainly of a very atheist bias, and his comments are often well thought out, rational and well directed. This is particularly true of his tales involving Lazarus Long.

I must also agree with the earlier suggestions of Charles Stross' Laundry Books. Pure genius. If you like that, you may also like Bone Song

<offtopic>
In more general terms, it slightly upsets me when people declare that they do not like a story because of it's religious opinion, political position and so forth because they disagree with it. It is FICTION people! The author can present any politics or religion that they darn-well want in their story. The reader should not determine that they then dislike the book because of that, but embrace its intent. Perhaps the author is describing a Christian/socialist ideal, or putting a positive spin on a communist future, not because they like the idea, but because they consider it necessary to their fiction. The "American-dream" may be a popular ideal, but it doesn't make it right for everyone!

Be open minded. Accept what you read, and enjoy it for the learning experience! :)

And finally, even more off-topic true story...

An acquaintance was very ill in hospital, on the verge of death, but recovered. After this a group of his friends determined that his recovery was as a result of their weeks of prayers, and that they would "give thanks" in church that weekend... They were quite upset when I suggested that the hospital staff may also deserve some credit!

It seems to be part of the human condition to believe in ghosts-in-the-dark and our ability to magically change our environment. *Sigh*
</offtopic>

Steve wrote: "In more general terms, it slightly upsets me when people declare that they do not like a story because of it's religious opinion, political position and so forth because they disagree with it. It is FICTION people! The author can present any politics or religion that they darn-well want in their story. The reader should not determine that they then dislike the book because of that, but embrace its intent. Perhaps the author is describing a Christian/socialist ideal, or putting a positive spin on a communist future, not because they like the idea, but because they consider it necessary to their fiction. The "American-dream" may be a popular ideal, but it doesn't make it right for everyone!

Be open minded. Accept what you read, and enjoy it for the learning experience! :)"

I couldn't agree more. When we only expose ourselves to opinions with which we already agree we are the poorer for it.

One of my books of the year was Towing Jehovah, which I nominated for the Atheist Book Club as it seemed from the description to be a comic story about the death of god - which it was, but was far more than that. It turned out to be a superb analysis of how people cling to their beliefs (or non-beliefs), how goodness is something in an individuals acts, and redemption in the face of an uncaring universe. Not really SF, possibly fantasy, but I do highly recommend it to everyone.

@Nokomis.FL - I believe the Beggars in Spain books were by Nancy Kress. Not read them yet but they are on my wanted list as they have come highly recommended.

Oryx and Crake was already mentioned but I would say anything by Margaret Atwood. And Octavia Butler's books Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Talents might also be good.

Just as a side note, it does not seem like Norman was saying that books that are about atheism are the only books his wife will read henceforth, just that she is currently interested in exploring some, or that either of them were passing judgement on the faithful. Expressing an interest in one thing does not necessarily imply derision toward another.

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions!

To those of you striving to get her to not "close" her mind to other authors... I think you lost the point of this thread a bit. I'm trying to help my wife understand that her point of view isn't wrong, and help her coop with being the only person at her job, or only one of her friends, that feels the way she does.

I'm not looking to shut out other types of stories, but it's easy for the majority to find art that speaks to them when you're all speaking the same language.

I wanted to find art that would help her validate her understanding of the world and help and give her the confidence to come out of the closet to her coworkers and close friends.

Her problem will never be listening to solely atheist voices, but being the only atheist voice in her life... well in this area anyway.

But again thanks to everyone for the suggestions!

I can't even imagine the place you guys live.
I feel horrible for you living somewhere so homogeneous.

Yeah we're looking at moving.

They didn't start selling alcohol in this town till a couple years ago... It was a dry town until then. Not just on Sundays... but everyday.

It's as conservative as it gets, the only thing less likely then making friends with a non-christian in this town is making friends with a martian.

Jason wrote: "Boots wrote: "Jason wrote: "As a side note, I was once told by a Rabbi that "atheists are closest to the divine, because they reject the false interpretations of the divine". Not sure what that mea..."

Mmm... This cynicism tastes good, a little bitter though I think I need to add some salt.

Norman wrote: "Yeah we're looking at moving.

They didn't start selling alcohol in this town till a couple years ago... It was a dry town until then. Not just on Sundays... but everyday.

It's as conservative as it gets, the only thing less likely then making friends with a non-christian in this town is making friends with a martian. "

That sounds like my version of hell.

I didn't think places like that still existed.

Makes me so glad I live in a country where religion is not a big deal (Australia)

Even our Prime Minister is an Atheist.

I live in the "city of churches," it drives me nuts sometimes but I like being a weirdo in a mostly conservative town.

Happy New Year, everyone. :)

I wanted to find art that would help her validate her understanding of the world and help and give her the confidence to come out of the closet to her coworkers and close friends.

Then it's time for some BARBARIC MADNESS.

Otherwise known as Conan.

Because Robert E. Howard was an atheist. And it shows.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I didn't think places like that still existed.

Makes me so glad I live in a country where religion is not a big deal (Australia)

Even our Prime Minister is an Atheist."

Eh... I wouldn't make too much of it. The presence of people who feel strongly about something one way or the other raises the likelyhood of hearing this kind or debate on a discussion thread, but that doesn't mean this church vs non-believer debate/argument is rated as a priority for everybody else in the country.

"The squeaky wheel" shows up on a discussion thread. Even when the initial question is rather innocent and not intended to be provocative.

Lorie wrote: "I live in the "city of churches," it drives me nuts sometimes but I like being a weirdo in a mostly conservative town.

Happy New Year, everyone. :)"

Happy New Year