The History Book Club discussion

Folks, this week we are beginning the discussion of Elizabeth the Queen.

Please feel free to comment on the Preface, Chapters 1 and 2. What are your early impressions of the book thus far and what surprised you the most about the book?

Please make sure to keep your comments focused on only Chapters 1 and 2 or the Preface.

I think I was expecting something "heavily" footnoted. I rather appreciate that it is not. I have been surprised by what the author discovered in her research, considering the Queen does not give interviews.Also rather surprised by comment that in an effort to remain neutral she does not have a favorite color. Rather amazing to consider that numerical fact of 123 of the last 174 years has been dominated by two queens. I really liked her comment that they resemble a royal Fred and Ginger. I like the queen's statement that "training is the answer to a great many things." I also loved the statement by the queen mother "if you find someone a bore ,the fault lies in you."
I was rather surprised that the queen was taught as a child to save wrapping paper and ribbons to re-use.
I have found myself wishing I was reading an e-book version so I could look up a number of words that I am unfamiliar with.
It was sad to realize the queen spent the years between 14-19 sleeping in a bomb shelter at night.
I loved the picture of the not yet queen facing her future husband at the wedding of their cousin with such a "telltale glance." perfect picture- perfect description. I am thoroughly enjoying so far.

Barbara wrote: "I think I was expecting something "heavily" footnoted. I rather appreciate that it is not."

Me too, its not like I'm going to go back and read the notes on the footnotes.

Also rather surprised by comment that in an effort to remain neutral she does not have a favorite color

I'm sorry but I thought that was a little over the top! She obviously chose to like horses, so whats the difference between choosing a favorite animal and color?

"if you find someone a bore ,the fault lies in you."

I also thought this was a great quote, and while I would like to believe it is true, its hard to believe. I guess I'm really bad with some people then.

I have found myself wishing I was reading an e-book version

Agreed!!! But for a different reason, the book is really heavy. I've been really engrossed with it, but have had to put it down because its so heavy!

the queen spent the years between 14-19 sleeping in a bomb shelter at night.

That was surprising. But you have to save the royal family and that was the safest place for them. I'm pretty sure it has an impact on her demeanor later in life. I would state some examples but they are mentioned later in the book.

Preface : Were you surprised by the fact that the Queen is animated and expressive in private....I believe the quote was "She talks like an Italian", meaning that she waves her hands around when she speaks. Her public persona is so reserved that it is difficult to think of her as a warm and chatty person when not on the public stage.

Jill wrote: "Preface : Were you surprised by the fact that the Queen is animated and expressive in private....I believe the quote was "She talks like an Italian", meaning that she waves her hands around when sh..."

I think there was a lot that will go unsaid by those interviewed. No one wants to be on the queens bad list! I don't think we will get 100% truth out of this or any other book written about the queen. There is so much to protect. But its part of the royal mystery that surounds that family and makes it so interesting to everyone. That said I think this book is offering amazing insight on the queen and her family and so far (I'm about 60% done) I'm loving the book.

I would agree with you, Jason.......there are things left unsaid but rightfully so. It does protect the family and the mystique of royalty but I think the author captures enough of the Queen's personality to provide new and interesting information.

Chapter One: The influence of the Queen's paternal grandmother, Queen Mary, was surprising since she was a very rigid woman who was not noted for her warmth or love of children. She was reminiscent of Queen Victoria in her attitudes and was a stickler for protocol. But she was instrumental in preparing Elizabeth for the day when she would become Queen.

I am really excited to read this book. My understanding of British royalty mainly comes from what I learn in the media. I've always wondered about the role of the Queen and other royalty vs. "the government" of the Prime Minister, etc. Having only read the preface so far, it seems like the Queen is a very interesting woman full of gumption. I am so far surprised, as others are, that she is a talkative and warm person, despite the very rigid and reserved character she seems to portray publicly.

Jill wrote: "Preface : Were you surprised by the fact that the Queen is animated and expressive in private....I believe the quote was "She talks like an Italian", meaning that she waves her hands around when sh..."

I was surprised, too; I can't imagine her cracking a joke or using her hands. I think we will find out she is a real person behind the scenes.

The media has also been my main source about British royalty. The impression given is that the Queen is exremely reserved and formal, and it seemed like Prince Phillip was a subject, and she married him because he was the best choice for a future queen. Already, I can see that at least on her side, it was a love match - I had no idea she was enarmored of him for so long. Most people thought it was Margaret who had the super-love, dramatic love life with the pilot. It looks like the Queen may not have had the - you-cannot-marry-him, he's-unsuitable - forced on her because Phillip was 'appropriate', but she did have the love.

I was impressed with the conscientious planning during her childhood to prepare her to be queen. It seemed that there was a great effort to make her well rounded and provide exposure to people from all walks of life and to keep her grounded and not too full of herself. Excellent parenting, and much credit to her nannies.

I've been very impressed with George VI's effort to prepare Elizabeth as well, though I suppose, since Victoria and Albert did try to do as much for the son who would be rather aptly nicknamed "Edward the Caresser." It's to Elizabeth's credit and England's luck that she was such an apt pupil and so obviously determined to learn.

I'm a bit surprised that the author references the recent movie "The Queen." I think I'm probably quite a purist, but I can't really see how a Hollywood interpretation of anything (Hollywood rarely sticking to facts) warrants any discussion in a biography, but perhaps that's just my preference for the scholarly over the popular.

I'm a bit surprised that the author references the recent movie "The Queen." "

I think the author was just trying to cover everything. I don't remember reading any praise in her discussion of the movie. I think it would be interesting to watch, just for fun, so I'm glad the author mentioned it.

I can see your point, Toni as I am a history "purist" as well but I think Jason hit the nail on the head. The author was providing a reference point for the reader who might have seen the film. I have not seen it but I believe it was very well done.

I guess I just may not like this author's apparent (for lack of a better term) "pop-culture" style of writing. I have seen "The Queen," and while it makes a good movie, there's no way to tell whether or not it was factual or not and I still don't really see the point. The movie about Elizabeth I with Cate Blanchett was a well done movie, but quite inaccurate and I would lose respect for any author who discussed that movie in a book about Elizabeth I.

You state your case well, Toni.

Jill wrote: "I can see your point, Toni as I am a history "purist" as well but I think Jason hit the nail on the head. The author was providing a reference point for the reader who might have seen the film. I h..."

I didn't realize the movie was for the wrong queen. That's a whole different story then. That's misleading.

Jill wrote: "I can see your point, Toni as I am a history "purist" as well but I think Jason hit the nail on the head. The author was providing a reference point for the reader who might have seen the film. I h..."

It sounds like the author interviewed Helen Mirren for the book, and it seems Mirren prepared pretty hard for the role.

I found Philip's life interesting; I did not know much about him. His family being dethroned, his father living the life in Monaco, his sisters marrying into German nobles that had Nazi ties, etc. Quite a story.

Yes it was an interesting story. The Battenburgs anglicized their name to Mountbatten and "Dickie" Mountbatten (Lord Mountbatten) eventually became Prince Charles' close mentor.
I think that Elizabeth truly loved Phillip.......he was not a good candidate for the typical "arranged" marriage that typically took place in royal houses. The picture at the beginning of Chapter 3 pretty much says it all.

I agree too--wouldn't Philip's life story make an interesting book as well? What would it be like to be married to a monarch and only be the prince consort. I've read a few biographies of Prince Albert (Queen Victoria's husband), and it seems that he struggled with the role.

Too true, Toni. It would not be much fun to have to walk two paces behind your wife wherever you went. But on the whole, I think it has been a successful marriage, don't you?

Prince Philip: The Turbulent Early Life of the Man Who Married Queen Elizabeth II

Philip and Elizabeth: Portrait of a Royal MarriageGyles Brandreth

Thanks Carol.....don't forget to add the author's link and photo (if available0.
by Philip Eade.

Jill wrote: "Thanks Carol.....don't forget to add the author's link and photo (if available0.
by [author:Ph..."

Sorry, I'm new. Hopefully it will be easier next time and everything will be there.

The absence of the Duke (formerly Edward VIII) and Duchess of Windsor from the wedding was noted in Chapter 2. They were living in France and the author stated that the presence of two Kings of England would raise the possibility of two rival courts. It makes sense but I feel that there are some things left unsaid regarding that situation......the Duke and Duchess's purported relationship with the Nazis during the war and the abdication had caused many in England to turn against the couple. I wonder if that was purposely omitted as the request of Queen Elizabeth?

Toni wrote: "What would it be like to be married to a monarch and only be the prince consort. I've read a few biographies of Prince Albert (Queen Victoria's husband), and it seems that he struggled with the role ..."

I enjoyed this book on Prince Albert.

Uncrowned King: The Life of Prince Albert
by Stanley Weintraub (no photo)

Carol, you are so right--I read that book as well and REALLY enjoyed it. GREAT recommendation!

Jill wrote: "Too true, Toni. It would not be much fun to have to walk two paces behind your wife wherever you went. But on the whole, I think it has been a successful marriage, don't you?"

I certainly hope it has been a happy marriage, though I suspect that Elizabeth has so much dignity and sense of duty that I doubt anyone would ever know if they weren't happy.

Carol wrote: "Prince Philip: The Turbulent Early Life of the Man Who Married Queen Elizabeth II"

Carol, have you read this? What did you think of it?

No I haven't read it yet.

Toni........Her dignity would indeed keep any problems out of the public eye. Since her father came to the throne due to the romantic entanglement of his brother which was still resonating with the family, she would be most circumspect in keeping things on an even keel in her private and public life. I will be interested as we go further into the book, if any rumor of unhappiness is mentioned.

The reference to the scene in 'The Queen' where the prop-shaft broke on the Land Rover was to show that although the scene never happen, it was to show that her automobile expertise was a genuine source of pride for her. It "was the only time where she had ever been able to measure herself against her contemporaries . . . the other eleven young women at the training center . . . wore the same drab uniform and was given the same instructions: learning to drive a 3 ton truck in heavy London traffic, changing wheels and spark plugs, understanding the workings of ignition systems, bleeding brakes and stripping down engines. Her face and hands got grimy from the grease, and she had to salute her senior officers. But the experience gave her confidence and expert driving skills."

She said "I've never worked so hard in my life. Everything I learnt was brand new to me-- all the oddities of the insides of a car."

It says a lot about her.

Hard to believe that she is the most painted monarch in history (140 portraits), and the fact that that she kept none, that they were all painted for other people.

All I can hope is that she kept the photograph that is the cover of the published book....it is truly lovely, isn't it?

It must have been difficult to grow up during World War II. She was only 13 when Britain declared war on Germany on September 3, 1939 after Hitler's invasion of Poland. Six weeks later the Nazis sunk the battleship Royal Oak and the King opened the Balmoral estate to children and mothers evacuated from Glasgow. She was there serving tea and talking to the women about their sons and husbands. She almost lost her parents to the Luftwaffe bombing campaign in September of 1940.

But the war "gave her an early introduction into the male world that she would inhabit as Queen." It seemed that "she never forgot that there was a war on but there was no feeling of doom and gloom."

A terrible time for everyone in Britain indeed.

Just a note to let you all know that we will be expanding the format of the Spotlight Read in order that we may move forward with the book. It should be up and running by the end of the week-end.

It seemed as though the Queen Mother was a big part of "Lilibet's" education -- spent time reading children's classics out loud to her and she taught her to read at five yrs. As soon as she could write she encouraged her to keep a daily diary. She did role playing exercises with her so she could converse with distinguished guests, and much more.

The Queen Mother
by William Shawcross

Folks, great discussion points. Also remember that as you read the book, if some questions come up for the author; that she has promised to come back as she has time during the discussion to answer your questions. Just place those questions on the thread titled Q&A with Sally.

If you haven't visited the Q&A With Sally thread that Bentley mentioned, please take a look at it. The author answered several questions that were posted there about the book and her experience in preparing for it.

We saw The Queen on her visit to the little Island of Antigua nearly 25 years ago. All of the school children stood in groups along the parade route, all wearing their particular school uniform. We were a group of Americans that met together to do school and we stood along the parade route and waved small American flags. We knew her route so after seeing her in town we drove ahead to the next area she would pass by and stood there. We stood out since ours was the only blond/blue eyed group of children. The queen passed within 10 feet of us both times. One young child with us had the appearance of a cabbage patch doll. As the Queen drove past us a second time she pointed at little Denise and all of us were so surprised at her pointing. So the comment about talking with her hands like an Italian reminds me of that incident and our surprise when she pointed.

Jill wrote: "The absence of the Duke (formerly Edward VIII) and Duchess of Windsor from the wedding was noted in Chapter 2. They were living in France and the author stated that the presence of two Kings of Eng..."

Interesting. Yeah, two courts makes sense and you wonder if the King played a role in not inviting his brother...most likely I would think. You wonder what Elizabeth was thinking deep down about not having her uncle there.

Bryan...The royal family disliked the Duchess of Windsor intensely and that feeling might have been passed on to Elizabeth.

Great story, Barbara. Every I have been in London, the Queen has been somewhere else!!!!

Just to let you know.........the entire thread for the book is now up and ready for comment. Please visit these other threads if you are interested in other aspects of the Spotlight Read.

Jill wrote: "All I can hope is that she kept the photograph that is the cover of the published book....it is truly lovely, isn't it?"

It's stunning - how old is she in that portrait?

I'm sure the Windsors would have been excluded because of the scandal surrounding their marriage and her background, if they weren't already banned from England. Interesting to wonder if their Nazi sympathies before the war would have been a factor all by itself, but from what I recall reading the Palace kept that pretty quiet at the time. Prince Phillip's three sisters weren't invited to the wedding either, but the only reason given earlier in the book was the antipathy felt at the time about Germans - were they excuded because of their German husbands?

I was also intrigued by the Queen's war experiences, as well as her Girl Guide experiences. Imagine being a refugee from the East End, joining the Girl Guides, and being able to treat the Princess Elizabeth as an equal. These experiences - the Girl Guides, the ATS training, even serving tea to the evacuees at Balmoral - while under unfortunate circumstances, were amazing training for a Queen to be. I was especially touched about her writing to the mothers of fallen Grenadier Guards about her time spent with them.

Yes Cheryl that was the insinuation - because of their German husbands and potential sympathies.

Regarding the experiences that the Queen was involved in during the war; remarkable really and they probably are some of the reasons that the British people are so loyal and that she has endeared herself to them over the years. People have long memories for those kind of acts or deeds.

Very true - I know I am one of those people. I still remember vividly people who performed even small acts of kindness twenty years ago.

Amazing too that in a pre-television world the princesses were able to mingle with the crowds in the celebrations unrecognized, and allowed to continue on their way even when they were found out.

I was also surprised that the Princesses were allowed to go out into the crowd and take part in the celebration. As you say Cheryl, that would be almost impossible in this day of intense media coverage. But I imagine that is one of the Queen's fondest memories.

I appreciated the brief history of the English rulers from James II to the present. It clarified some questions I had about the lineage.

It was stated that during the war Crawfie worked to keep the atmosphere light at the castle by organizing games of hide and seek and sardines. Could someone tell me how one played sardines? What kind of game is/was it?

Sardines is a fun game......one person hides and others seek him out. When one person finds the hider, they join him.....each time someone finds the hider, they join the group until you are packed in like sardines and there is only one person still seeking them. Simple but causing lots of laughter.