Pre-Tolkien Fantasy discussion

A lot of people don't realise that there was a lot of fiction that can be considered to be fantasy written before Tolkien's opus was released and subsequently became famous. I'm personally a huge fan of Tolkien but have long since become tired of The Lord of the Rings being seen as a huge watershed moment in the history of fantasy when it was a genre that had been around for some time beforehand in a more-or-less established way, just not such a commercial one.

The question of what is/isn't fantasy could rumble on and on just as it does with the formation of othr genres and I think that the Balantyne Adult Fantasy Series list is a pretty good indication of the kind of stuff that hopefully this group will be interested in exploring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballanti...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastl...

I can think of earlier, individual works that you could easily describe as fantasy but a common theme that started up in the 20th century seems to me to be questing/adventuring in a stylised fantasy world that is distinctly different from the earth and society we know, usually containing magic and laws that would be impossible in present-day Earth.

I'm hoping to spend a lot of time this year brushing up on the many excellent early-fantasy novels that I've never had the chance to read and I hope that others will be keen to read-along, share, discuss and just generally get caught up in a world where fantasy got overrun by elves and dwarves and little bastard boys discovering their inheritances.

So, say hi and introduce yourself and your favourite pre- and post-Tolkien fantasies for starters!

Hi, everyone! I'm Dan and I'm not a big fan of all the Tolkien derived fantasy that chokes the shelves these days. I'm a fan of Poul Anderson, REH, Fritz Leiber from the early days. As for more recent stuff, I'm a huge fan of Hugh Cook's Chronicles of an Age of Darkness, particularly The Walrus and the Warwolf, Michael Moorcock, and Roger Zelanzy. I miss the days when you could have a fantasy story without it being a Tolkien-derivative multi-volume "infinitology."

I own some Fritz Leiber and Eddison so hopefully this group will incite me to read more of the good stuff.

Hi, everyone! I'm Nikki. I'm interested in fantasy in general -- though I only recently discovered Poul Anderson, shame on me -- including Tolkien and his derivatives, but not limited to them. I just did a massive essay on Tolkien's Old Norse and Anglo-Saxon influences, so I'm very much in the mood for things-not-Tolkienian, right now. Love Roger Zelazny, too. Planning to read some William Morris before long, and currently partway through George Macdonald's The Princess and the Goblin.

I tend towards swollen eyes and stopped-up noses when reading about elves, dragons, or majicqk. I loved the Egyptian sorcerers in The Anubis Gates, f/ex, and have a very very soft spot in my heart for The Chronicles of Amber. Liked Delaney's Neveryon books.

But reading's about staying open, so here I am. Blame Dan.

Similar to Dan, my name is Daniel. Also like Dan, I tend to gravitate more towards non-epic, non-Tolkien fantasy, but I have been known to like some epic doorstops.

Anyhow, I imagine Dunsany will be a good common ground for this group. I'm going to be reading a lot of his stuff this year.

Also, anyone who would like to please join us in reading The Worm Ouroboros in March.

So what do you all think of early fairy tales, folk tales, and such as examples of pre-Tolkien fantasy? Are we making a distinction with these?

Another book I'm going to read this year is an epic, pre-Tolkien fantasy - A Journey to the West.

Hello all, I'm Stephen. You can block and copy Dan's post above as his fantasy reading taste are basically exactly the same as mine. I enjoyed the original LOTR but much prefer Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, which I consider the "modern" branching off point for the Moorcock, Leiber, Zelazny line of fantasy which I gravitate towards. As with Richard, you can blame Dan for anything I do wrong here.

BTW - Stephen read more books during the last hour than anyone else here will read the whole year.

I don't know, D_Davis, have you checked my reading stats? Haha.

Naw...my numbers are seriously padded by audiobooks, short stories and graphic novels. The rest I blame on a lack of quality TV and poor sleeping habits.

Stephen wrote: "Naw...my numbers are seriously padded by audiobooks, short stories and graphic novels. The rest I blame on a lack of quality TV and poor sleeping habits."

Crap TV is how I manage to get my reading done. I think Nikki might be ahead of Stephen in books.

I'm Jim & started off reading with REH, ERB, & Tolkien. When we read the Hobbit in 6th grade, I actually recited the first few pages, didn't have to open the book. Leiber, Haggard, Poul Anderson & such were my earliest & best friends. Since then, I haven't stopped looking for more great adventures.

Hi, I'm Danielle. I hadn't actually read Tolkien until last year. I did enjoy The Hobbit, and I can see why he's revered. It's interesting that folks think you aren't a real fantasy fan if you haven't read him or think he's the best thing ever. I started out with very early fantasy, fairy tales and mythology, and now I'm in the process of exploring all the various forms out there. I will probably always tend to lean towards low fantasy and urban fantasy with a heavy emphasis on folklore and mythology. I am interested in classic literature across the board, specifically in the fantasy, horror, and speculative fiction categories, including and especially the really obscure/pulpish works that have fallen into the cracks. I would love to explore the early pre-Tolkien fantasy works along with others in this group.

Sorry, realized I didn't actually introduce myself. I'm Bryce, known by Seak on some forums. I actually love the huge massive enormous gigantor fantasy series, but I also would like to broaden my horizons. I've read some Moorcock, some Zelazny, and like I said above, I own more classics, but have yet to jump in fully. I like the sound of a Worm Ouroboros reading in March. It's a free download plenty of places on the internets (legally) or .99 on Amazon if anyone was wondering.

Also, to those who've read The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson. Would you recommend it on Audio? I've found that I can't do super complex books or just books with lots and lots of names on audio, I can only hold so much in such a small brain.

You've convinced me this book MUST be read and ASAP.

So many familiar faces. This is turning into a great group. Bryce, I listened to the audiobook of this and loved it. I think it enhanced the story significantly. That said, I did have a copy of the book and would occasionally follow along while listening as it helps to get the names down. However, I don't think it is so complicated that the audio will be an issue. Definitely a great read.

Okay, it's decided. Thanks.

I know, I was thinking the same thing about how awesome this group is turning out.

hi, i'm mark.

i love all sorts of fantasy, from the Tolkeins to the Martins to the Dunsanys. looking forward to a group read of Worm Ouroboros!

Okay, Steampunk isn't strictly speaking within the remit of the group, but this movie trailer is so awesomely amazingly stunningly cool that I couldn't help myself.

And the story behind the making of it is even cooler.

Sweet trailer...you are forgiven (by me at least) for your non-fantasy interlude. *tags Richard as possible disrupting influence*

ME?! A disrupting influence?! *swings Louisville Slugger for Stephen's knees*

THAT's just for thinkin' it!

Cool idea for a group!

Im Mohammed from Sweden and i too dont like the books that follow Tolkien famous series.

My fav fantasy writers are pre-Tolkien. Lord Dunsany, Howard etc

Lord Dunsany is the most literary talented author i have read and who made me fan of classic, pre-1950s.

I have books by Eddison, Peake and look forward to read Morris,MacDonald etc

Hello all, many familiar faces I see!

To those who don't know me, I'm a big fan of Lord Dunsany, Algernon Blackwood, Clark Ashton Smith, Robert E. Howard and C.L. Moore to name but a few pre-Tolkien fantasists (all of which I consider essential reading).

As for "The Worm Ouroboros", I only just re-read not too long ago but I'll happily join in a discussion about it when it arises.

D_Davis wrote: "So what do you all think of early fairy tales, folk tales, and such as examples of pre-Tolkien fantasy? Are we making a distinction with these?

Another book I'm going to read this year is an epic,..."

Ohhh...I'd love to read A Journey to the West, but I've always been intimidated by it. Perhaps we can do a buddy-read?

D_Davis wrote: "Another book I'm going to read this year is an epic, pre-Tolkien fantasy - A Journey to the West. "

I might be down for A Journey to the West.

Hi all Dulac3 here, also known as Terry in the non-internet world. I have a great love for Tolkien (much less for his army of imitators), but also love the antecedents to our modern giant that is the fantasy genre. In particular I concur that the Ballantyne Adult Fantasy Series, edited by Lin Carter (great editor, horrible writer) is the best place to start. I love Eddison (both the Worm and his Zimiamvian trilogy), and Poul Anderson's _Hrolf Kraki's Saga_ (I admire _The Broken Sword_, but prefer the saga to it), I also love Lieber's Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories (though I would class them and REH, another favourite, as heroic fantasy or sword & sorcery as opposed to pre-Tolkienian fantasy...I know I'm a pedant). I also admire Dunsany, but unlike most I prefer his few novels to his short stories.

Looking forward to this group's reads!

Dulac3 wrote: "Hi all Dulac3 here, also known as Terry in the non-internet world. I have a great love for Tolkien (much less for for his army of imitators), but also love the antecedents to our modern giant that ..."

Pre-Tolkien is not a subgenre but more like a timeline. 1930s,1940s was before LOTR. Not like all the authors mentioned in this group wrote similar fantasy. Fairy tales,fables,S&S etc

I didnt mention Poul Anderson, Roger Zelazny,Jack Vance becuase they were not pre-Tolkien. They are among my fav fantasy authors.

I'm Alex. I'm from England. I feel old, though people keep telling me that I'm not.

I read The Hobbit and LOTR when I was very young and fell in love with them. I've ready plenty of Tolkien pastiches and I'm even quite fond of Dragonlance. I also discovered Conan when I was pretty young as well (12-13) and loved the brutal contrast, the violence, the monsters and the errrr women.

I confess that wrote off fantasy as a non-literary genre for a few years until I discovered the Fantasy Masterworks line.

https://www.worldswithoutend.com/list...

Some of their choices are terrible, some are incredible, but either way it did a great job of convincing me that fantasy literature is nothing if not diverse and interesting(and literary)as well as introducing me to Gene Wolfe it also opened my eyes to this pre-Tolkien era of writing and some of the great classics that there are.

So yeah, my tastes are fairly diverse. I do love epic, Tolkienian fantasy but I think one of the most enjoyable thing about reading literature has always been this voyage of discovery, uncovering hidden gems and curious and discovering something new

Yeah, I wouldn't want to limit things by sayng the pre-Tolkien fantasy had to mean anything restrictive and I'm very much in the camp of seeing Sword & Sorcery as one of the main pre-Tolkien fantasy influences. it's fair enough to call it a sub-genre for convenience sake but I'm not personally that fond of categorising literature and putting it into little boxes more than one really has to for discussions sake.

Re: the fairy tales question. In terms of influence I would say categorically "yes" I think that Fairy Tales have been a huge influence on the fantasy field and I can't imagine writers like Dunsany or MacDonald as producing what they did without them. More modern writers like Jack Vance's Lyonesse is very influenced by Fairy Tale settings and morality as well.

In terms of what we want this group to cover... whatever we happen to be interested in collectively that we can argue falls under that banner of influence. I think we could have an argument as to whether Haggard is a genuine influence on the field or not, but the only way to see what kind of influence he was would be to read some... but, the big classics like Worm ouroboros and Broken Sword and Voyage to Arcturus etc are probably going to end up taking precedence, I imagine.

I would be very down for reading Journey to the West!

Ah, Vance's "Lyonesse" series is excellent! I love his combination of pseudo-Arthurian fantasy, ironic humour, and bizarre fairy tales. Great stuff.

I forgot to mention the excellent tales of Clark Ashton Smith...baroque prose and a fevered imagination on par with Lovecraft.

Alex said: "Some of their choices are terrible, some are incredible, but either way it did a great job of convincing me that fantasy literature is nothing if not diverse and interesting(and literary)"

Out of curiosity, which of them did you find to be terrible? I've not yet read the whole series but I've found for the most part it to be of a broadly high standard.

My worst experiences of it were William Hope Hodgson's The Night Land (part of the FM omnibus) and Geoff Ryman's Was (which I would argue doesn't even belong in the genre, let alone the series).

I'm hoping to finish reading this series by the end of the year.

Glad to see some interest in A Journey to the West. I don't think it is something that I would read in its entirety without breaks. The version I have is ~3,000 pages long, split into three volumes. I'd probably tackle one volume a month, or something.

Next on my reading list will be Fifty-One Tales, by Lord Dunsany.

Dulac3 wrote: "...Lin Carter (great editor, horrible writer)..."

You'd put down such great works as Jandar of Callisto?!!! For Shame!

;-)

Simon wrote: "Alex said: "Some of their choices are terrible, some are incredible, but either way it did a great job of convincing me that fantasy literature is nothing if not diverse and interesting(and literar..."
Yeah, finishing up the list is also on my to-do list!!! I can't believe that I haven't done that yet.

I think that there are some books that I personally do not like (i.e. Viriconium, Little, Big) and some that I think are terrible choices for the list.

Terrible choices, for me are
a) The Jonathan Carroll books. I'm not sure who on earth would rate these as anything other than run of the mill young adult horror fantasy. I mean, I enjoyed them well enough for what they were, but for a list of all time great novels, there was nothing remotely approaching the wow factor. Not even sure why they're "fantasy" particularly

b) Beauty. Again, yeah, Ok book, but c'mon - Angela Carter should be there but not this!! probably a rights issue and that's unfortunate for the list!

c) Fevre Dream. Sure, Martin is the king in the fantasy field right now, but just because of that I don't think this book really deserved a place on the list. An average-ish vampire horror novel. Enjoyable enough.

d) The Drawing of the Dark. I haven't read The Anubis Gates yet. It does looks like fun. This looked like fun too but it turned out to be stupid, childish, very racist pap

e) Time and Again. YAAAAAAAAWN. This was like fantasy writing for trainspotters. I wanted to slash my wrists.

I also take huge issue with the series including every other book that Moorcock wrote. I can appreciate including Elric as an influential fantasy work, even though I don't happen to think that Moorcock can write very well at all. There's a dead horse that someone is flogging there.

That all sounds very negative but I'd say that's just the nature of this beast and by comparison I've also discovered many of my alltime favourite novels through it, namely Book of the New Sun, Worm Ouroborous, Mistress of Mistresses, King of Elfland's Daughter, Lud-In-the-Mist and Lyonesse and there's a good few others that don't slouch (Broken Sword, Lankhmar, Hodgson etc)

...bit off topic, but you asked :D

Alex wrote: "Yeah, I wouldn't want to limit things by sayng the pre-Tolkien fantasy had to mean anything restrictive and I'm very much in the camp of seeing Sword & Sorcery as one of the main pre-Tolkien fantas..."

You sound like me i didnt respect fantasy when i had only read heroic fantasy that wasnt world class or epic fantasy that knock offs on Tolkien or grim,kill all characters "realistic" modern fantasy.

Discovering classic fantasy, modern great fantasy authors made me respect the genre. I enjoy all types of fantasy when the author is good enough. My fav authors are many fantasy authors who write different types. Howard,Gemmell,Kearney subgenre to Vance,Lord Dunsany,Zelazny,Powers and co.

We probably need a few more topics in the group to ever get on topic beyond, "Hi! My name is . I'm a book junky & not worried about recovery, just time to read."

;-)

D_Davis wrote: "Glad to see some interest in A Journey to the West. I don't think it is something that I would read in its entirety without breaks. The version I have is ~3,000 pages long, split into three volumes..."

I envy you for reading that collection man. I have thought dreamingly skipping classes for Lord Dunsany collections hehe :D

Well, maybe we should decide on a buddy read? Personally, I've got Jack Vance's Lyonesse books lined up. And I want to read William Morris' work, too.

Jim wrote: "Dulac3 wrote: "...Lin Carter (great editor, horrible writer)..."

You'd put down such great works as Jandar of Callisto?!!! For Shame!

;-)"

And Under the Green Star?! Heathen!

C'mon...have any of you read more than one Carter novel?! (For anything other than ironic reasons that is.)

The Masterworks (Sf & F) series is very weird to me. Sometime it seems like they really pick masters, and other time it seems like they just pick what they have the rights to publish. Not a big fan myself. It seems like whenever I pick something up because of the MW edition, I end up just thinking it is OK, but then I'll read something and later discover that it is included in the series, and with these I usually like more.

I don't know - I think a lot of it just comes down to me not liking being told what books are considered Masterworks. I'd rather declare that for myself. I mean, who is really in charge of declaring such a thing?

Dulac3 wrote: "C'mon...have any of you read more than one Carter novel?! (For anything other than ironic reasons that is.)"

In 1972, I started a four-year binge of Lin Carter books. In my defense, I was twelve at the time. I read all five or six Green Star books and three Callisto ones. By the time I was sixteen, though, I was reading them with an arched eyebrow and a smug, superior smile.

I don't know - I think a lot of it just comes down to me not liking being told what books are considered Masterworks. I'd rather declare that for myself. I mean, who is really in charge of declaring such a thing?

I know where you're coming from, but bear in mind that this series started publishing back in 2000 - I think it was - when Fantasy had been absolutely swamped by epic Robert Jordan-esque series and as a genre it had little to no credibility in the eyes of the public. You could call it a cash-in but it was basically a time pre internet information overload, and I really appreciated the helping hand through the mire, and being given advice on what might be considered fantasy classics, and also the chance to make a statement saying "yeah, fantasy is worthy and can have a canon too"

But they mucked it up a bit with a lot of spurious choices and publishing books based on what they had the rights for rather than genuine reasons in the end.

It's easier to come onto a site like this now and find information on what people generally consider are good books, worth reading, and to find all information about all authors etc... but back then all I recall having was whatever I saw on the shelf in Borders and maybe Amazon's random recommendations (which have imporved so much these days)

Richard wrote: "In 1972, I started a four-year binge of Lin Carter books. In my defense, I was twelve at the time. I read all five or six Green Star books and three Callisto ones. By the time I was sixteen, though, I was reading them with an arched eyebrow and a smug, superior smile. "

You may be the world's leading expert on Lin Carter.

I agree, Alex. And I have used the series as a launching point for my own explorations.

Hello, I'm Hugh. I may need to research some of my reads to find out which ones are actually pre-tolkien and which are cometing works. I'm sure I've read lots that came before. From what I read here, that list would include, but not be limited to,

Roger Zelazny
Fritz Lieber

For sure.

Despite the thrashing it took farther up this thread. I happen to like The Drawing of the Dark by Tim Powers (and by the way, Declare was great but it's not pre-tolkien). I didn't find racist, though I will admit, it was a long time ago that I read it, and I may not have been as sensitive to that kind of thing as I am now. (or maybe I was simply more innocent?)

I've read a little from a lot of different authors in fantasy and science fiction.

I'm a believer that the Brother's Grim had a lot to do with the formation of a written tradition of fantasy literature. Most of the fairy tales they published had to be watered down and sweetened to be okay for children.

I'd also include writers like Arthur Conan Doyle, Juiles Verne and Edgar Rice Burroughs should be honored as having some influence on writing that would be fantasy works later. John Carter of Mars was more a swashbuckling hero than a figure of the Civil War (though surely that series was thought of as science fiction.)

But we would have to talk about the Malbignon and Paradise Lost. Of course T.H. White, but the earliest work that we can think of as fantasy, without being mythology, is likely the origninal King Arthor stories. (where The author changed Merlin's Name from Myrddan to Merlin because Myrddan in print looked too much like the french word for... (sesnored).

But I digress. Glad to be here. I'll post more books and such once I get a grip on "before when" we are talking about.

While I too love Tolkien, as he opened up huge worlds of imagination for me at the age of ten (and this was back in the 70s), I was already familiar with fairy tales through the Blue/Red/Green etc Fairy books. And I like to think that Tolkien himself would agree with us, that he is not the definitive, but that he was wanting to resurrect and revive a grand tradition of fairy tales. I love that youve put this group together. I think Tolkien (and Lewis, for that matter) would want us to talk about the "old guys", "the originals". Its where THEY drew their inspiration from...

All lies! Everyone knows that Tolkien invented fantasy in Gary Gygax's basement because Cellars and Silverfish V 3.5 wasn't selling for shit.

I'm DJ, by the way. Nice to meet you all.