The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Four thread for the next Presidential Series selection (John Quincy Adams).

The week's reading assignment is:

Week Four - January 30th - February 5th -> FOUR p. 78 - 106

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library. Bryan's edition is ISBN: 0679404449 (hardcover)

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be your moderator for this selection as he is our lead for all Presidential selections. We hope you enjoy Week Four of this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bryan

by Paul C. Nagel

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Four

JQA was not exactly thrilled about a diplomat's life, but he accepted the post. He brought his brother, Thomas, to Europe and nearly lost the trunk full of diplomatic letters. He was in London and met John Jay and Charles Pinckney as they worked on what would later be called, Jay's Treaty. Once he arrived at Holland, he learned to enjoy the diplomat's life. He wrote 6 hours a day, read, walked, and socialized. His primary goal was to report back to America on what was going in Europe, and he was happy to do it.

He was summoned back to London. The British Foreign Office actually liked JQA and wanted to talk with him about some of the details of the treaty, but JQA did little. He spent a lot of time at Joshua Johnson's house where he began to date one of his daughters, Louisa. His parents were not thrilled about the relationship when they heard about it. Abigail didn't think it practical to have a wife stay in Europe and John worried about the expense of having a wife who enjoyed fine taste. They got engaged, but it started this long battle of when to actually marry. JQA seemed to put it off. He told Joshua that if Louisa can get to Lisbon, Portugal, his new assignment, then he would marry her. This was what Joshua did to JQA's surprise.

Jay's Treaty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Treaty
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_me...

Louisa Johnson:

Joshua Johnson came to England from Maryland in 1771. With the American colonies at war with England while he was there, he moved his family to France in 1778 to the port city of Nantes. Louisa Adams grew up in great luxury and indulgence, a lifestyle she attributed to her mother's insistence. In France, the Johnsons entertained many Americans, including John Adams and his son, then-twelve year old John Quincy. Louisa Adams would long afterward consider her identity to be more French than English, in terms of her cultural interests, personal manner and worldly sensibilities. When she returned to England with her family, she even had to relearn how to speak English. Although she had not been baptized in any faith upon her birth, as she matured, Louisa Adams worshipped as a Catholic, attending masses and strictly adhered to what the nuns in the convent of her first school had taught her. Consequently, when thrust into Anglicanism in England with no explanation of the transition, she found herself confused and overwhelmed, repeatedly fainting when she knelt to pray in the new faith. Her parents as well as other observers and associates over the years Louisa Adams' unusual sensitivity towards others, intensity in her quest for answers on existence, and brilliant musical and literary skill. These traits stood out all the more because Louisa Adams had an openness that was uncommon among young women of her era. In 1795, while attending one of the many lavish parties held at the Johnson home on Cooper Row near Tower Hill in London, the young American diplomat John Quincy Adams was drawn to her because of such qualities. Engaged in 1796, Adams nevertheless had reservations, fed in part by the concerns raised by his influential mother, Abigail Adams, who reminded him how poor choices in his personal life could impact his future political prospects. In the year preceding their eventual marriage, Adams sent a series of harshly critical and blunt letters to Louisa Adams, emphasizing the importance of prudence, economy and lack of frivolity that would be required from a wife of his. When Adams further delayed the marriage due to his lack of funds, Joshua Johnson promised to pay for their passage to his next assignment, in Lisbon, Portugal. Adams consented but just before the wedding, Louisa Adams' father took his wife and the rest of his children and fled England for the U.S., leaving enormous debt to British creditors.
(Source: http://www.firstladies.org/biographie...)

I think we see JQA's struggle here even more trying to balance two lives: the love of the scholarly life: reading, writing, etc. vs. a life of what others expect of him.

What does this say about JQA?

Bryan wrote: "JQA was not exactly thrilled about a diplomat's life, but he accepted the post. He brought his brother, Thomas, to Europe and nearly lost the trunk full of diplomatic letters. He was in London an..."

I think that JQA loved the life of the diplomat. There didn't seem to be a lot of "official" duties that needed to be done which gave him ample time to pursue his literary pursuits.

I thought the scene where they almost lost the diplomatic documents was so funny and he was extremely lucky!

I was surprised at the extremes JQA went to for trying to put off the wedding, but Louisa was quite insistent!

Lol, can you imagine him being a diplomat now?! No way would he take the job: meetings, conference calls, emails, reports, entertaining, etc. etc. I agree, I think he really wanted to be a scholar or poet. And now you have this struggle because his parents moved him into public service.

The wedding thing was interesting. At first, he said, the timing was bad, salary wasn't enough for both of them, the typical stuff. Maybe JQA really needed to take time to figure out if he wanted to get married, and that the married life would not interfere with his scholarly life.

By the way, here is the JQA portrait mentioned in this chapter done by John Copley:



(Source: http://www.nps.gov/adam/historycultur...)

Information on Copley, some great paintings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sin...

I thought this was interesting about JQA and Louisa:

"Adams was stiff; dominant, especially toward females; and rarely could take teasing. Louisa was clever, occasionally lighthearted, and impatient with male pretentiousness." (p. 103)

Do you think this personality clash played a role in JQA's reluctance to set a date?

I think you get a sense of how estranged relations between U.S. and the British still was when Abigail called Louisa a "half-blood."

For us, it was so long ago and we mended our relations so well with Britain, it seems strange to call them enemies. However, there was a real bitterness for awhile. It didn't help that Britain was the a economic power-house.

I wondered when I was reading JQA's excuse's to avoid getting married that while he was clearly in love, he also may have been more in love with the idea of getting married. He was enjoying single life and was desperately afraid of losing time to himself, but on the flip side was also pleased with the notion of having a spouse. In simple terms, he wanted the best of both worlds without having to make a hard choice.

(He kind of reminded me of having to sell my motorcycle when I got married !)

Very funny Rodney.

Bryan wrote: "By the way, here is the JQA portrait mentioned in this chapter done by John Copley

I have never seen any images of a young JQA - he seems like a relatively handsome man - in the time period that is.

I was surprised by the portrait, too. The author tells us he was pretty handsome, but I think we see this too often:

Rodney wrote: "I wondered when I was reading JQA's excuse's to avoid getting married that while he was clearly in love, he also may have been more in love with the idea of getting married. He was enjoying single..."

I agree, Rodney. I don't think he was ready for marriage, either. Society put a lot of pressure on people to marry and he really struggled with that.

Do you see the chance to work with the British Foreign Office regarding the Jay Treaty a "missed opportunity?" Could it been different if he faced his self-criticism, low self-esteem?

Bryan wrote: "I was surprised by the portrait, too. The author tells us he was pretty handsome, but I think we see this too often:

"

In the one you posted in 14, he looks like a crotchety old man (lol)

Oh yeah, Scrooge from:

Charles Dickens

First thanks to Bryan for the info on Louisa - her being a serious Catholic and thinking herself maybe less American oriented is interesting and I think vital to understanding her and much of the surrounding things.

So interesting things are revealed here - Thomas Johnson becoming a Supreme Court justice for just a couple of years and going back to normal life. The concept of lifetime appointment meaning lifetime service not applying yet - maybe due to the yet to be established strength of the court. Also that he felt obligated to accept the appointment - "patriotism”? - Probably.

Also starting on page 97 came the perspective that JQA seemed to want a risk free economic life, & a light work load - except for what he wanted to do. The fact that his fiancée’s family was running out of money was a concern to him.

I also am questions his sexual activity or wishes. On the one hand he complains that Abigail maybe wants to subject him to "perpetual celibacy" and on the other he fights like the dickens to avoid, avoid and delay his marriage. And after the notes of Bryan I believe more firmly that the (pg 98) "evening of satisfaction" were not very risqué.

That Louisa put up with this makes me wonder and maybe - beyond her affections - the changed financial status of her family diluted her options. And that he says he loved her but wanted to keep reading his books is a bit incongruous to me for a young man. I am pretty sure that, unlike Rodney, he did not have to sell a motorcycle – maybe if he had one it might have changed justifications.

Thanks Vince. I like your comments, especially what Louisa was facing. You could be right, her prospects were lowered due to her financial losses. Marrying an Adams was a pretty good gig, although the family was not super-rich.

Heather wrote: "I have never seen any images of a young JQA - he seems like a relatively handsome man - in the tim..."

http://www.nps.gov/adam/historycultur...
There is a copy of an engraving when JQA was 16 years old. (On the left, 14 down.)

Thanks, Carol. Nice looking kid.