The Sword and Laser discussion

http://io9.com/5881773/why-does-edgar...

Edgar Rice Burroughs

I'm guilty of not reading any of Mr Burroughs works. I did a cursory glance of a few of the summaries of his works on Wikipedia and I'd say its fairly safe to say he is at the least a little bit sexist.

Still the guy wrote almost as much as Terry Pratchett has.

He wrote entertaining boys adventure stories.(Tarzan, The Land That Time Forgot, Carson of Venus, John Cater of Mars, etc..). They are firmly rooted in the morals of the time (1912-1940) with a definite slant toward chivalrous heroes and damsels in need of rescue.

I pretty much have read everything he has written. I enjoyed all of them greatly when I was a young teen/pre-teen. That makes sense because that was the audience he was writing for.

But, there is no deeper meaning to his novels, they were written for pulp magazines and are pretty much the literary equivalent of a light pop-corn movie.

(and there is nothing wrong with enjoying a light pop-corn movie)

Nick wrote: "http://io9.com/5881773/why-does-edgar...

Edgar Rice Burroughs

I'm guilty of not reading any of Mr Burroughs works. I did a cursory glance of a few of ..."

Nick, ERB was a product of his time and society. His books are well written and simplistically entertaining, enjoy them for what they are and try not to impose modern day (over?) sensitivities to what are period pieces.

Tell you what, if you keep it quiet, I will not report you to the PC police if you read and enjoy them.

Yes yes, I understand he was a product of his time and the romance angle of his stories are gonna be pretty typical. I guess this specific story fired off the "sexist" name call since it seemed to be written specifically to complain about independent women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Resu...

Also, I never said his fiction wasn't enjoyable. I just said he may have been a little bit sexist.

I do find it odd that I'm getting crap from people telling me I'm overly PC when all I'm doing is calling a cigar a cigar. I'm not saying don't smoke it.

If you want to visit into the realm of other authors who weren't PC in their beliefs but were still damn good story tellers you should read works by Lovecraft, H.P. and Roald Dahl. Both have had elements in their stories that were a bit racist. Doesn't mean their stories are terrible. In fact they are still cited as great influences on many writers. I'm a big fan of Lovecraft.

Does Edgar Rice Burroughs still matter?

He does as long as people keep reading him.

Nick wrote: "I do find it odd that I'm getting crap from people telling me I'm overly PC when all I'm doing is calling a cigar a cigar. I'm not saying don't smoke it.

If you want to visit into the realm of ot..."

But still it's ok, you are not 'guilty' of reading any of his works are you?

Noel wrote: "But still it's ok, you are not 'guilty' of reading any of his works are you? "


What is there to be guilty of? I haven't read any of his works though I'm sure I will. Did you even read the summary of the story I was referencing? Did you even read the article I linked to at the top of this post? What is your problem?

The article mentions how there is a lot of current culture that owes itself to Burroughs. That alone would make me want to read some of his work.

I'm sorry if you took offense. That was not my intention but obviously you feel what? Burroughs wasn't a tad bit sexist? You haven't really said anything other than you enjoy his books. That and you seem to want accuse me of being overly PC which you never did justify and you never did say I was wrong in my opinion.

I see. You are referencing my use of the term guilty in the OP. I was just using that at the top to say you should take my opinion with a grain of salt since I hadn't read any of his works yet.

Calm down. I don't have a problem. I just took gentle issue with your post which implied that was somehow an act of guilt to read his books. It really is difficult to take issue with anything some say without them taking it personally. Surely it's ok to argue?

Noel wrote: "Calm down. I don't have a problem. I just took gentle issue with your post which implied that was somehow an act of guilt to read his books. It really is difficult to take issue with anything some ..."

You read my OP wrong. I said I was the one guilty of commenting when I had not read anything by him.

Not what you said. Still, I think this has run its course. I don't want to make an issue of it especially as I really enjoy your contributions usually!

I read the posted wiki link. I never read the original story since it looks like it was just a short story written for a pulp magazine in 1937 (ie not a novel), so i am just going from what the wiki says.

But, it seems to show that a cavemans attitudes about women no longer fits in the modern world. Because of his attitudes the only option the hero/caveman had at the end of the story was to retreat from modern society friendless and alone.

I expect more is beng read into this minor short story than it deserves.

The movie world still thinks he matters. Dozens of movies have been made of his works, even a Disney cartoon.
"John Carter" comes out next month. (Also Disney) Which has been made for a rumoured $300 million.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401729/

I was a huge fan of his works in my pre & early teens. Not so much as I matured
I loved At the Earth's Core & The Land That Time Forgot

For anyone interested in checking out his books. There is a cheap iPad & iPhone app (99c) that includes 11 of his works (plus 89 other books)
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/100-sc...

When I read Tarzan of the Apes I thought it encapsulated the American mindset better than any other book I'd ever read: the anti-intellectualism (Jane's father is a brilliant academic who is not merely useless in all practical things, but a danger to himself and others through his complete lack of any common sense or prudence), the weird dichotomic view of women (Jane is both the fainting, helpless woman in need of rescue and the competent caretaker of her common sense-disabled father), the racism (Jane's black maid acts like a child, and the African blacks are obviously inferior, morally and in every other way, to the white Tarzan, even though he was raised by apes), and most of all, the ideal of the self-made man, taken to truly ludicrous extremes (not only is Tarzan a paragon among men, in spite of having no role models and no help, he taught himself not only to read, but to SPEAK English from books).

If you want to understand many of America's subconscious cultural underpinnings, you could do worse than reading Burroughs.

I'll eventually read some of Burrough's work but Asimov's Foundation series and Frank Herbert's Dune series will have a higher priority in my reading list.

Foundation series is wonderful. I don't know what others think but I think The Dune series is the typical example of a case where the first book, Dune, is terrific, an absolute classic of the science fiction genre but the subsequent books in the series completely fail to meet the first book's standard and get progressively duller and turgid. Read the first and stop!

I read a lot of his books years ago and found most of them enjoyable escapism. Just last month I found the The Caspak Series on Librivox and listened to them. Most of his works are 200 pages or less, so good for a quick read. Only 5-7 hours as an audio book.

@Tassie Dave: Considering that almost all of his books are in the public domain and available all over the net, I wonder how Apple can get away with actually selling them? I guess there is no limit to their greed.

Noel wrote: "The Dune series is the typical example of a case where the first book, Dune, is terrific, an absolute classic of the science fiction genre but the subsequent books in the series completely fail to meet the first book's standard and get progressively duller and turgid. Read the first and stop!"

Couldn't agree more. Dune is at the top of my sci-fi list but the sequels just got harder and harder to read, to the point where I just gave up on them.
Like Noel said, just read Dune then stop.

AndrewP wrote: "@Tassie Dave: Considering that almost all of his books are in the public domain and available all over the net, I wonder how Apple can get away with actually selling them? I guess there is no limit to their greed."

100 books for 99c of which Apple gets 29.7c is a bargain, even for public domain books.
The print versions would be hundreds of dollars.

Here is a link for free E.R.Burroughs e-books:
http://www.manybooks.net/authors/burr...

Well, some of his works are in the public domain, and since that isn't happening so much any more, those works are more useful to artists who want to build on the past.

And since Burroughs was a product of his times, his novels make great study materials. I had a history professor who argued that Tarzan was an outright expression of social Darwinism. You take a well-bred white baby, and even if he is raised by animals, he can teach himself to read and grow up to be king.

Tora wrote: "When I read Tarzan of the Apes I thought it encapsulated the American mindset better than any other book I'd ever read: the anti-intellectualism (Jane's father is a brilliant academic ..."

I think that's confirmation bias on your part. Most of the themes you list off can be found in British popular authors of the period -- William Le Queux, John Buchan and especially Sax Rohmer. Keep in mind that Tarzan is largely a rip-off of The Jungle Book and Rider Haggard's Allan Quatermain series; Pellucidar of The Coming Race; and The Land That Time Forgot of The Lost World

I should have posted the Librivox link.. here it is.
https://catalog.librivox.org/search.p...

23 free Burroughs audiobooks.

Tassie Dave wrote: "The movie world still thinks he matters. Dozens of movies have been made of his works, even a Disney cartoon.
"John Carter" comes out next month. (Also Disney) Which has been made for a rumoured $3..."

Dave, thanks very much for the link.

I tried reading Burroughs, and E.E. Smith, several years ago and just couldn't deal with the inherent racism and sexism. Those are easier to deal with in a novel set in the past rather than the future.

Sean wrote: I think that's confirmation bias on your part. Most of the themes you list off can be found in British popular authors of the period...

You're probably right. I haven't read any British pulp fiction except an excerpt of Varney the Vampire; or, The Feast of Blood, so I can't compare. I suppose enjoying those themes are something pulp readers of Britain and America had in common.

Tora wrote: "... truly ludicrous extremes (not only is Tarzan a paragon among men, in spite of having no role models and no help, he taught himself not only to read, but to SPEAK English from books ..."

Having just recently read Tarzan of the Apes for the first time, I feel compelled to offer a correction: Tarzan didn't learn to speak English from books, or otherwise autonomously. That he could neither speak nor understand any spoken language was the crux of Jane's misidentification of the erudite, but mysteriously invisible, "Tarzan of the Apes" as someone other than the chivalrous but mute "wild man" protecting her party. D'Arnot taught him to speak and understand French during his recuperation in the jungle, and later regretted not starting him with English instead. Tarzan picked up spoken English at some unspecified point after reaching Europe, perhaps as late as his trip to America.

That of course leaves plenty of "ludicrous extremes" to choose from, though! That's pulp fiction for you.

Nick wrote: "Yes yes, I understand he was a product of his time and the romance angle of his stories are gonna be pretty typical. I guess this specific story fired off the "sexist" name call since it seemed to..."

"The Resurrection of Jimber-Jaw" is one of the most peripheral of Burroughs' stories. And you can decide if it's sexist or realistic for yourself. The female in the story, Lorna Downs, who is a "liberated" Hollywood actress, occurs only in the final section of the story. The sexism is very much like the difference between the current Democrats and Republicans. For full summary of the story, with spoilers, see: http://www.erblist.com/erblist/jimber....

Noel wrote: "Foundation series is wonderful. I don't know what others think but I think The Dune series is the typical example of a case where the first book, Dune, is terrific, an absolute classic of the scie..."

I did exactly as you said. After the first Dune, I didn't feel any need to go on. With Burroughs, though, every book I read left me wanting more. I read Asimov, as well, and would read more but that's not high on my list any more.