The Sword and Laser discussion

Can I just say that I hate the term “Science Fantasy”. I think it’s stupid and ignorant for anyone to say that grandiose science fiction is in some way not science fiction but instead is science fantasy. I know that there’s not much of a real difference between the term fiction and fantasy, but there is to me. Fantasy to me means that it’s completely impossible, it’s something that you have to imagine because there is no basis in reality for it, i.e. Magic, multi-gods, etc. Fiction, specifically science fiction is something that may be impossible with our current understanding of science, but could be true given changes in our understanding of physics. Things like multiple-dimensions, FTL (neutrinos), shields etc are all examples of things that right now don’t “exist” but have either been demonstrated feasible or theoretically possible.

I guess to me calling grandiose science fiction science fantasy is a degrading comment. It’s almost like they are saying it’s not good science fiction, it’s less, therefor it must be termed fantasy.

I think just because your understanding of science and theory isn’t big enough doesn’t mean that it couldn’t possibly be true.

What do others think? Can people tell me what they consider science fiction vs science fantasy? Book examples?

A couple of books/series to classify:
McCaffrey’s Dragonriders of Pern
Hamilton’s The Void series
Hamilton’s Night’s Dawn Series
Herber’s Dune Series
DePrima’s A Galaxy Uknown Series
Star Wars

Who’s got others? What do you think?

I'd never heard the term Science Fantasy prior to reading this post, but it put me in mind of C.S. Friedman's "Coldfire trilogy" because it began with humanity colonizing another planet (science fiction) but then having no access to super advanced technology after landing for one reason or another so the whole culture reverts to Fantasy.

In the Coldfire trilogy, there's a mechanic on the planet that makes anything above a certain level of complexity doomed to fail, so it's back to swords and bow and arrows for weapons, and there's also a magic force on this planet that wasn't present on earth so there's magic users.

So I'm ok with that being "Science Fantasy", but I agree with you that taking a Science Fiction work and labeling it "Science Fantasy" because it's epic is just stupid.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke

"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology" - Larry Niven

For me the term Science Fantasy is a good name for fiction that combines parts of both genres or as wikipedia tries to define it.

"Science Fantasy" is either a science fiction story that has drifted far enough from reality to "feel" like a fantasy, or a fantasy story that is attempting to be science fiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_...

Bitter Seeds is a book that I would class as Science Fantasy. It is alternate history fantasy with science fiction elements,
The kids powers are made and enhanced by scientific means but they are purely fantastical in nature.

I agree with you Tassie, as well as the definition as stated on wikipedia. What I don't really agree with is that the big space opera's are seemingly being pushed into the Science Fantasy category and I don't think that's the case. Just because the science in these series is so 'big' doesn't mean they are fantasy.

Oh, dear, this debate kept on popping up in every SciFi forum I've been in. I would chip in, but I'm all debate out regarding this topic. LOL

To quote Arthur C Clarke

"Science fiction is something that could happen - but you usually wouldnt want it to. Fantasy is something that couldn't happen - though you often only wish that it could."

Aloha wrote: "Oh, dear, this debate kept on popping up in every SciFi forum I've been in. I would chip in, but I'm all debate out regarding this topic. LOL"

I know what you mean, so I'll just say this:

Star Wars isn't Science Anything. Its pure Fantasy.


*flees*

There are elements of truth in all great fiction! Therefore, Star Wars is a non-fiction!

There's also an element of horror in all fiction. Star Wars is horror.

I don't view Science Fantasy as a copout term for non-rigorous science fiction. I agree with the Wikipedia definition. Science Fantasy to me are books that combine both elements of science fiction (other planets, high technology) with magic and mythical elements.

I would agree with the combination of Science and Magic/mythical elements being science fantasy, a great example would be the Cyberpunk world. Again, what I don't agree with is making grandiose science fiction like DePrima’s A Galaxy Uknown Series Science Fantasy just because some of the "science" in there is almost unbelievable.

Glenn wrote: "Can I just say that I hate the term “Science Fantasy”. I think it’s stupid and ignorant for anyone to say that grandiose science fiction is in some way not science fiction but instead is science f..."

Agree with Glenn. Science Fantasy is a ridiculous term. In any system of genre classification there will befew books that could fit into a couple of categories at a push but, for example, Star Wars is undoubtedly, Science Fiction, a big sprawling Space Opera, how can there be any argument. The same thing applies to Peter F Hamilton's books. Ok, the Void series has a fantasy element,especially within the void, but it fits squarely in the Science Fiction bracket.

The original Star Wars trilogy has more fantasy elements than sci-fi.

We have a princess, an evil ruler and followers with magic like powers and the good guys also have magic like powers.
They fight with sword like weapons.
Spoiler alert ;-) One of the bad guys is the good guys father. That's a typical fantasy trope.
It's good versus evil. We even have ghosts at the end of "Return of the Jedi"

Even the opening title sequence is straight out of a fairy story
"A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." instead of
"A long time ago in a land far, far away...."

It's still science fiction. Princess? We have them in the UK. magic like powers, no, just Psi abilities. The swords are as much laser like weapons, certainly closer to science fiction weapons than metal swords and spears.
As for the beginning words, totally irrelevant. If I wrote 'Gone with the Wind' and started with the words, ' Once Upon a Time', does that make it a fairy tale?

My point is that the Star Wars story in any other setting would be pure fantasy.
A space setting doesn't make it sci-fi.
Psi abilities are paranormal therefore fantasy.

A lot of work crosses many genres. Star Wars is a perfect candidate for Science Fantasy.

I love the term Science Fantasy. It's not that stupid compared to Science Fiction. They are both Speculative Fiction and all are just Complex Speculation.

Horror, fantasy and science fiction all fall under speculative fiction. A more detailed definition is needed to see which genre a book falls primarily under. To me, if the plot cannot stand without the science element, then it is science fiction. If the plot can stand without the science element, then it is science fantasy. For example, Star Wars' plot can stand if you replace a far away galaxy with the underworld cave of the Orc, and lasers with swords. A book such as Neuromancer, in which the plot is heavily based on computer technology, cannot survive if computer technology was replaced with carbon paper.

Aloha I think that is a GREAT determinative methodology. One in which I can agree with and support.

Thanks, Glenn!

Aloha wrote: "Horror, fantasy and science fiction all fall under speculative fiction. A more detailed definition is needed to see which genre a book falls primarily under. To me, if the plot cannot stand witho..."

I'm not sure I follow you there. Star Wars cannot 'stand' without the science element surely? It is set in a civilisation which is dependent on faster than light space travel, has clones, space ships, lasers etc. etc. we don't know exactly what the force or other abilities are due to and there could easily be an underlying science based explanation for them as a magical fantastic one. In any case, Star Wars is spaceships, space travel and is science fiction.

Noel, since a plot is the most important component of a fiction, a good way to determine whether a book falls under a certain category is how important that genre's characteristic is to the plot. Science, whether factual or speculative, is the foremost characteristic of science fiction. To me, the light saber, Yoda, space travel, etc., are the pretty coating, but is not necessary to Star War's plot. The plot overview is about a boy who discovered that he was destined to bring back balance to the Force, went through training by a Jedi master, etc., etc. That could be the plot of any kung fu movies that took place in olden times, with a slight predestination twist. You don't need the light saber, space ship, etc. to carry the plot through.

The science element in Star Wars is mere set dressing. None of it is explained in any way. It's just part of the background and isn't necessary for the telling of the story.

It's about a young farmboy who learns he has an affinity for magic and falls under the tutelage of an aging wizard as the embark on a quest to defeat the evil empire. Along the way he meets a rogue, a wolfman and a princess.

Pretty fantastic, that.

Ala, you coward. You finally found some cojones.

To clarify it further, it helps to think what drives the plot to determine the genre. For example, in romance, the romance drives the plot. Without the romance, the plot cannot move forward. In Star Wars, what drives the plot is the fact that this boy is predestined to bring back the balance to the Force that is unbalanced by evil. That can take place in ancient times, middle earth, anywhere. It doesn't have to be in outer space.

But you can boil down any novel to bare bones plot and place it in almost any genre couldn't you? The novel is surely the sum of its parts and NOT merely plot.

To say it another way...LOL

Romance: You know it's a romance when romance drives the plot. Boy meets girl, goes through many things, boy lives happily ever after with girl.

Science fiction: Science drives the plot. Example, some techno gadget changed the world, and our heroine needs to figure out some way to combat it. Without the techno gadget, you don't have the plot.

Fantasy: Often, magic element drives the plot. Now, this is where Star Wars can fit into it, even if it has light sabers and space ships. You have predestination, you have knights, supernatural dark forces, myths, etc. Hence, it should be in science fantasy, because it is fantasy that drives the plot, but sugar coated with science.

Noel, I think the critical characteristics determine the genre. If a fantasy, with its plot driven by the magical elements, contains a love affair, you wouldn't categorize it as a romance. The fantasy can stand alone without the romance. If you take a Romance and remove the romance, you would have a very sorry book. There's no and, if, or but. You have to have boy meets girl, etc.

I think you can argue the exact opposite, meaning the trappings, stage sets, objects and general setting, determines the genre. You can have all types of romances in all types of setting but if the romance takes place in a setting say in space, using spaceships as transport, faster than light travel as an everyday occurrence set against a backdrop of interstellar conflict, I submit that would make it science fiction, whether the technical means of spaceship propulsion is explained or not. As in Star Wars.

Noel, if the book cannot stand without the romance, then it would be classified as a Romance, not Science Fiction. I've read romance that takes place in outer space, where the futuristic hunk comes back and meets the heroine. It would still be classified as Romance and not Science Fiction.

Star Wars can do without the science, but will not stand without the fantasy aspect.

I think the reason why it's important to label a book in its correct genre is to help guide the reader to the right category. If I wanted to read Science Fiction, picked up a book about a gorgeous hunk going through a time machine to meet up with a woman, and had to read mostly about the interaction between the two, I would be highly irritated that I spent my $8 on that paperback.

Aloha wrote: "Ala, you coward. You finally found some cojones."

I just wanted to watch the world thread burn. But it was taking too long so I threw a bit of gasoline on it :P

Aloha wrote: "Noel, if the book cannot stand without the romance, then it would be classified as a Romance, not Science Fiction. I've read romance that takes place in outer space, where the futuristic hunk come..."

How can Star Wars stand without spaceships, big lasers, small lasers,sword lasers,moons and planets, space empires, robots, aliens, parsecs, death stars, space fighters........... It just wouldn't be Star Wars without them. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it flipping well is a duck. a Science Fiction Duck! Quack!

LOL! It's a parrot in a duck costume. "Polly wanna a cracker."

Noooo that parrot is dead. It has gone to meet its maker. It......

I just wanted to throw in that I agree and think that Star Wars is a great example of Science Fantasy.

LOL!

Star Wars is more Western than fantasy. Classic western tropes, gunfights, revenge, saloon brawls, fight against evil, good guys triumph blah blah blah. Any other genres you want to put Star Wars in?

I don't know what you all are talking about. Star Wars is an Edwardian drama.

Colin wrote: "I don't know what you all are talking about. Star Wars is an Edwardian drama."

Adam Adamant. Now that's an Edwardian drama. Or is it Science Fiction?
Sherlock Holmes! An Edwardian drama......well the stories set after 1901 are anyway. Perhaps Han Solo's middle name is Edward? All the elements of an Edwardian drama then.

Star Wars is an erotica. Have you seen the Princess Leia slave costume?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_d6J3...

I'd say science fantasy is something like The Dying Earth or The Book of the New Sun, where a setting appears to be fantasy and the story uses many elements of traditional fantasy, but there is actually a science fiction core and explanation for the setting - magic in the setting is really advanced technology, etc.

Star Wars I'd classify as space fantasy. It uses lots of fantasy elements like science fantasy, but does not have a true science fiction core - science is pretty much thrown out the window (sound in space, spaceships act like WW2 planes in the vacuum of space, etc.). But I don't think its space elements can simply be switched for medieval fantasy elements and have it remain the same. The Death Star floats from star system to star system and blows up entire planets, for instance - that doesn't have an immediate fantasy equivalent. Actually, a motley stew of elements were synthesized/riffed on to create the original Star Wars universe (Kurosawa films, WW2 arial films, Westerns, early science fiction pulps, early cinema's cliffhanger serials, comic books, Joseph Campbell theories, etc.) -- that soup of influences is documented well in The Making of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind the Original Film and The Secret History of Star Wars, and Lucas isn't shy about admitting all those influences.

I do like the idea of 'speculative fiction' being an umbrella that can contain science fiction, science fantasy and space fantasy, even though it can be argued that space fantasy is not doing speculation as much as it is creating (at its best) unique imaginative experiences.

All of it is true.

Jlawrence wrote: "I'd say science fantasy is something like The Dying Earth or The Book of the New Sun, where a setting appears to be fantasy and the story uses many elements of tradition..."

You couldn't resist it could you? Your Gene Wolfe obsession can be treated you know. Next time you feel the temptation to bring The Book of the New Sun into any unrelated conversation, just lie down in a darkened room and call Uncle Noel :)

Noel wrote: "You couldn't resist it could you? Your Gene Wolfe obsession can be treated you know. Next time you feel the temptation to bring The Book of the New Sun into any unrelated conversation, just lie down in a darkened room and call Uncle Noel :) ."

Nah, it's incurable. :)

But ol' Mr. Wolfe has used the term himself. He says "a science fantasy story is one in which the means of science are used to achieve the spirit of fantasy" in his essay "What do they mean, SF?".

EVERY work of fiction is a Fantasy. By definition.

That's substituting the word "fantasy" for "fiction." Sure, you can do that, but then the category "fantasy" ceases to have any function, since then Bridgette Jone's Diary, The Brothers Karamazov, For Whom the Bell Tolls, Lord of the Rings and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy are all in the same category. All categories are artificial, and many books straddle categories, but "fantasy" is a useful sub-category of fiction, and I think "science fantasy" can be too, even if it's fiddly.

For 'fantasy' to have any meaningful effect as a genre descriptor, it needs to be well defined and have set elements such as sword and sorcery tales, magic systems that are recognisably just that, dragons, castles and such like.
If people want to take straight-up space operas and shoehorn them into fantasy, western, samurai or anything else, they can, but it makes genre classification increasingly meaningless and less valid.

Are you agreeing with me, Noel?

Heaven forbid! I don't want to give your admirer Glenn cause for jealousy!

Hey, it's reciprocal. Whatever Glenn wants, he can have.